S01E38 – Guest Special – Emma Beattie from Unmasked Studio

For our very first guest episode, we’re joined by Emma Beattie, founder of Unmasked Studio, to talk about what neuroinclusion can look like when you move beyond awareness and start thinking about how people actually experience work.

After almost two decades working in technology, Emma’s ADHD diagnosis gave her a new understanding of how her brain works, as well as some of the challenges and strengths she’d experienced throughout her career.

That understanding also helped fuel her passion for neuroinclusion. Alongside her existing role, Emma went on to develop a neurodiversity programme within a global organisation, creating events and opportunities to celebrate neurodivergent colleagues and encourage more open conversations.

Now, through Unmasked Studio, she works with neurodivergent people and employers to help make inclusion work in practice.

We talk about:

• Why awareness is only the beginning
• The difference between performative and genuine inclusion
• How recruitment could work better for different brains
• Why small changes in communication can make a big difference
• Self-advocacy, boundaries and asking for what you need
• And why finding your people matters
• Plus, Hannah gets disproportionately annoyed about being asked what chocolate bar she’d be in a job interview. Which, frankly, feels justified.

Because genuine inclusion isn’t about ticking the right boxes.
It’s about creating environments where different people have the opportunity to do their best work.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:15 – Hanna and Stu introduction
00:00:35 – Neuroinclusive Workplace mention
00:01:23 – Emma Beattie introduction
00:02:14 – Emma’s employment backstory
00:04:40 – How work started to become harder around 30…
00:05:53 – How did life change after a diagnosis?
00:07:20 – Understanding and advocating for yourself in the workplace
00:08:55 – Background to starting a neuroinclusive program as an employee
00:11:01 – Pitching the idea of the Neurodiversity Awards event at work
00:13:38 – Expectations vs impact of the awards event
00:15:40 – Was there resistance from masked or not widely disclosed NDs?
00:16:40 – What’s the purpose of an “awareness day”? So… what’s next.
00:18:00 – The workplace assessment and requesting accommodations
00:20:50 – The importance of management “buy-in” and acceptance
00:22:14 – The wider impact of advocating for yourself
00:23:30 – Was there any resistance and how did you overcome it?
00:26:51 – How did these experiences lead to starting the Unmasked Studio?
00:29:07 – Stu’s theory on why interviews are not great for NDs
00:29:55 – Exploring how Unmask Studio fills the gap in ND recruitment and workplaces
00:32:25 – Complacency and ticking boxes – but there’s a lot of support available
00:33:20 – Closing the gap – what does genuine inclusion look like in practice?
00:34:24 – Exploring basic rights for interviews, asking for the questions beforehand
00:36:00 – A better approach to the recruitment process for NDs
00:37:12 – Unmasked Studio – what’s the future?
00:38:10 – Barriers, broken processes and best way to ask for ‘accommodations’
00:40:00 – Surviving the recruitment process and masking your authentic self
00:43:02 – Where does Unmask Studio get started when working in a business?
00:44:09 – The benefits to the business and measuring the costs to the business
00:47:57 – Performative inclusion vs genuine inclusion
00:48:28 – Neuroinclusion is not just for neurodivergent employees
00:49:55 – Emma’s vision of the future for employment
00:50:47 – Who Emma/Unmasked Studio would like to connect with…
00:52:12 – How to contact Emma at UnmaskedStudio.co.uk and Linked In etc.
00:55:48 – The CRUCIAL final piece of advice for NDs from Emma
00:56:24 – Outro and goodbyes
00:57:35 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES
Contact Emma Beattie – Unmasked Studio

https://www.linkedin.com/company/unmasked-studio-uk-ltd/ Unmasked Studio Linked In Page

https://www.unmaskedstudio.co.uk/
All contact details and more about creating neuroinclusive workplaces

https://businessoddcast.com/the-oddcast-manifesto – Link to the Neuroinclusive Manifesto, Lets build a better, more inclusive society.

https://businessoddcast.com/niq-free-audit target – A Neuroinclusive Workplace self-audit test for employers, teams, and the self-employed. Built on the social model of disability and the idea that barriers are designed in environments, not people.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
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hosts@businessoddcast.com

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Stuart: Welcome to another business oddcast. Another first for the business odd podcast because today we have a fantastic guest. But we’re going to do a little bit of housekeeping and a little catch up. How are you doing, Hannah?

Hannah: I’m good, thanks Stu. Alive and well on this hot, steamy Friday.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. We’ll have forgotten about it by the end of November and we’ll be complaining about how cold it’s got.

Hannah: Crying about the rain.

Stuart: Now, if you’ve not heard, if you’ve not seen a recent podcast, or blogcast, or any of the casts that we might throw out there into the internet, we’ve got the neuroinclusive workplace, and there is an audit that you can take to audit your workplace and see how neuroinclusive it is, and maybe get some ideas on how to improve things for you. And today’s guest is going to take us through a lot of why we have set this up with her own program and her own stuff and why she is doing this. It’s all fantastic. Let’s move along and introduce our fantastic guest. So today, Hannah, we don’t have a topic of the week. What do we have?

Hannah: We don’t have a topic of the week at all. We have something far more exciting. We have our very first guest of the week, Emma Beattie, who is founder of the Unmasked Studios. So Emma has spent nearly two decades working in technology, most recently in customer success before being diagnosed with ADHD around two years ago, I think. Since then, she’s gone from building a neuroinclusive program from scratch inside a global organisation to launching the unmasked studio where she now works with neurodivergent people and employers to help make inclusion actually work in practice. So, there is a lot to unpack there, Emma. So, without further ado, welcome to the business podcast.

Emma Beattie: Thank you so much Hannah.

Stuart: Yeah, thank you Hannah for that thorough introduction. There’s definitely a lot to unpack.

Emma Beattie: So I’ll start at the beginning. So I’ve worked in technology nearly 20 years and most of the roles I’ve had have been customer facing commercial roles. Like you said, more recently customer success. So, quite high pressure roles and I think I’ve always loved helping people and I like meeting new people and building relationships. So I think my career on paper looked quite successful but there were quite a number of hidden struggles that you know I instinctively put down to personal failings. And because of that, you know, the element of people pleasing and trying to fit into a world that rewarded conformity rather than big thinkers and innovators and you know, people who liked to question things.

Stuart: Before we get to the Unmasked Studio, which is your business, could you maybe talk us through your career? So, we just get a little flavour of the backstory so we know a little more about you up to the point of where you were seeking diagnosis because you unpacked some of that there and it just be nice to see what led from the initial idea all the way through to the diagnosis.

Emma Beattie: I’ve kind of noticed or always felt different, certainly in the workplace, and I suffered periods of burnout. There was definitely a pattern developing so I would work on various projects, high profile, things in work and I would just sort of get to the point where I was like, “I just can’t do this anymore”. I just literally had breaking points and there was a pattern of events, but at the same time, I recognized that there were certain things that I could really zero in on. I could really hyperfocus on certain things, especially if they were of real interest to me. But then on the other side, like admin tasks and various things,  my brain just can’t do it.

Stuart: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: And it was really quite troubling because I didn’t really have a language for it. And then obviously there was the emotional element and not being able to manage my emotions. Certainly as I got into my late 30s and around this time I think there were a lot more discussions happening. A lot more awareness and people sharing their lived experiences. I suppose I got engrossed and hyperfocused on a lot of that stuff and I started to really um resonate and um and it was around the time where I was really trying to understand who I was because I think the periods of burnout was kind of all related to having a bit of an identity crisis to be honest because I was trying to like you know uh fit in a world and be a certain type of person. that was acceptable. And I got to the point where I was like, “I don’t really know who I am any more”.

Stuart: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: So I did a lot of research and, you know, that kind of sparked a natural curiosity for me to eventually seek a diagnosis.

Hannah: That makes a lot of sense to me. and I kind of went down a similar journey really. So once you had that diagnosis, and the language that went with that. It sounds like you’d already done, you know, that deep dive into all things neurodivergent and you’d kind of seek that diagnosis. And once you had it and a better understanding of all the things around it, what changed for you personally and sort of professionally, how did having that diagnosis influence you going forwards both on personal and professional level?

Emma Beattie: Yeah, I think it wasn’t a natural fix. Although I don’t believe that there was anything to be fixed, I think it helped me develop a much stronger self-awareness in understanding who I was as a person. Like how my brain works. But again, I had to do the hard work. So I had to do the additional research and I had to seek expert advice or speak with ADHD coaches and explain some of my struggles and then develop techniques to kind of adapt, understanding triggers and those kinds of things. And with that self-awareness, I got a lot better at advocating for myself and my needs and advocating in a workplace as well. So, a lot of the support and the backing has come about taking people through my journey of, it sounds really corny, self-discovery. So I’ve always been quite open. I openly disclosed my formal diagnosis and with that I found my openness. And bringing people along on that journey and sharing my lived experience helped other people build their own confidence in sharing.

Stuart: I’ve had a similar response when I talked about my own struggles and my sort of seeking out therapy. Random strangers coming up to you and saying, “Thank you so much.” You acknowledging it helped me understand. And you’re like, I just felt a bit, I don’t know self -conscious saying “I’ve had a bit of a struggle”. It’s like “we all struggle, dear”. You know?

Emma Beattie: Exactly. Like why not normalise it, you know? Like

Stuart: Yes. Absolutely. So, at this point, you got your diagnosis. You were employed in a role and you decided to start a neuroinclusive program within the business.

Emma Beattie: Yeah. And it had nothing to do with my role. Which a lot of people found a bit strange, you know, they didn’t really know where to place me. But yeah, I started to get more involved in the business with the neurodiverse community. Got to know the group and individuals even before I was formally diagnosed. But again, just having that support structure from like-minded individuals that you know, I didn’t have to pretend. We all shared our successes and some of the things that we were really finding like struggling with. So it was a really really safe space where you could genuinely just be your authentic self. So I had that incredible, you know, community and that support around me. On the other side, I had  a lot of successful people within the business in other areas of business that were being visibly recognised for doing various things. In contrast, I saw this incredible group of people and a lot of their successes were just hidden away, like no one really acknowledged it. And I’d felt that as well on a personal level, from competing with various women. You know, women in diversity awards processes and things. And being really proud of what I submitted, but when it got to the judging panel, it didn’t tick the right box. So, I always felt like I deserved that recognition.

Stuart: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: And so did other people. So, yeah, that’s what kind of sparked the neurodiversity awards event that I worked on.

Stuart: Just rewind it a second because I’m really interested in honing in on something. So you went into work one day, took a deep breath and pitched the idea. Who did you talk to first and how did that conversation open?

Emma Beattie: Yeah,

Stuart: I’m going to presume you’d been sharing the journey to that point or was it aha?

Emma Beattie: So, I’d got involved in awareness days and those kinds of things. and I’d contributed with some internal podcasts and been quite open and sort of shared my journey. But it was all really internal. There was nothing externally going out. The event idea was me having coffee with a colleague and coming up with this big idea to put on an awards event, you know, focused on neurodiversity. And focus on individual strengths, things that we’re really proud of  that perhaps you know people don’t get the opportunity to shout about. So literally it was just a coffee chat. I said wouldn’t it be fantastic to get lots of people together as a celebration of all the amazing things that people have done or that you know that they’re capable of. And I’m very much an opinion of go big or go home.

Stuart: Yeah. No, I love that. I love that idea.

Emma Beattie: So, I was like, right I’m thinking of external guest speakers. I’m thinking of charities. I’m thinking of customers. So, I’m going off on quite a big tangent. You know, this is like turning into a red carpet event.

Stuart: why not? Why not?

Emma Beattie: Well, that’s why I was like, well, this is the first time that the company actually, you know, put together. And I don’t really remember asking for much permission. I just went ahead with it and,I mean, I had certain elements of structure. So obviously HR were aware they have their ESG and they at the time had a neurodiversity UK director and there was the policy or like the framework internally. So in a way I didn’t really need permission because this was something that you know the company would showcase to the world that we have this ESG program and it has several different pillars. So, I knew I wasn’t really doing anything wrong, but I think people really expect the impact and what happened after the event.

Stuart: Right? And what was the impact? How was it accepted or how was it responded to?

Emma Beattie: So, there was lots of excitement. Like lots of people, just you know the sort of the human element. People were really embracing it and really celebrating and being open about it, you know.  I had so many people come up to me and sort of share stories about family members and you know and things like that and it was really really touching and you know it sort of led to more interest.

Stuart: It did exactly what you had hoped and planned for it to do . It gave a platform and a showcase to the neurodivergent community especially within the business.

Emma Beattie: Absolutely. And it led to other high-profile events focusing on supporting neurodivergent job seekers. And we had an event at the Shard. Then again I wanted to go big and do an event at the House of Commons which was incredible. It was just really nice to have an open platform where people didn’t have to pretend and they didn’t have to mask to be accepted.

Stuart: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: So yeah, so it was really touching, but also there was a commercial angle as well. And I suppose that kind of helped how I got support like with it internally within business. I always phrased it as there’s a business reason why we should be focusing on this particular theme.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely love that because Well, I’m the tangent queen. So, here’s the first tangent I’m going to introduce.

Stuart: Oh, I’m excited.

Hannah: Um, what I was going to say is I wondered when I’ve spoken to other people in the sort of neurodivergence and your inclusive space, there’s always or more often than not a common thread. Hesitation from people, and I felt it myself. Hesitation for people to out, for the want of a better word,themselves or out their neurotype. Did you come up against anybody kind of like “I love the idea but I just want to pretend to be masky Dave or whatever it is”.

Emma Beattie: yeah

Hannah: What did that look like?

Emma Beattie: Celebration at first because I think you know from a company perspective it’s um great optics and I know that sounds really cynical but it’s..

Hannah: But that’s where it starts. That’s where it starts. [17]

Emma Beattie: Yeah, that’s where it starts. And I think there’s safety in just sticking to the same old things that you know is considered appropriate in terms of doing awareness days and certain months of the year. You pick a theme and then someone puts on an event and I was always a bit like I thought it was great, but I was always a bit “oh I’m a bit disappointed. Why do we have to have one awareness day or why are we even having awareness days?  It just didn’t make any sense to me coz I’m thinking surely we’ve moved on from raising awareness on these diversity topics. What happens next?

Stuart: Yes. Well next comes rights and responsibilities and laws and statutes accountability.

Emma Beattie: Okay. Yeah. Exactly. All of that.

Stuart: But yeah, you’re right. It starts somewhere. But just repeating it every year

Emma Beattie: And that’s why I think I was always expecting something else to happen and I went through the right process. I had an external workplace assessment. So you know like any employer is allowed to ask for occupational health assessment. So I had one based on ADHD and I received a report which again was shared with my employer at the time and basically systematically went through the list of accommodations and I thought “okay that that would be useful, you know, that would help with more of the sort of day-to-day things. And then there was a section on communication and how I could receive feedback or criticism

Hannah:  Um None!

Stuart: Just none. Yeah.

Hannah: Under a weighted blanket in a dark room.

Stuart: There’s lots of fidget toys.

Hannah: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: You know, there were some of the things in the report that I could do myself.

Stuart: right?

Emma Beattie: You know, I could get noise, I could get loop ear plugs. You know, I could get that. But there were certain elements that I needed collaboration with like line managers and I needed them to be on side.

Stuart: It’s always a really tricky thing to navigate because with a hidden disability no one really understands how certain things trigger a person with ADHD or autism but I kind of got to the point where you know it’s probably an age thing as well where you just think do you know what like I don’t care if I’m going to upset someone. Like they can’t treat me that way. Um so with that kind of maturity as standing up for myself and you know not taking it any more I’ve had to say, do you know what? You can’t really say that to me because, you know, having to explain RSD to someone, so rejection sensitivity dysphoria, and them not really understanding that it can cause a physical painful reaction. And depending where your energy and your mood and many other contextual cues can trigger a meltdown, it can just derail your entire day.

Emma Beattie: Yeah. But the big issue that I’ve come across is that you spend a lot of time explaining yourself, and again you’re not asking for special treatment. You’re just asking for a slightly different approach. Sometimes like communication. Ultimately it requires managers being proactive and actually doing some training on it.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Um, good luck.

Emma Beattie: Because it becomes really exhausting when it’s like your full-time job to to be advocating for yourself all the time and you think, I just want to do my best work.

Stuart: Yeah. We did a training video for Signal and for the neuroinclusive workplace and in it I said, you know, the thing is just because somebody has a disability doesn’t make them a campaigner for it. You might meet them on a really bad day and then you get them to give you some training. It’s like great thanks on top of everything else today I’ve got to tell you.

Emma Beattie: Yeah. It’s silly though because some of the adaptations benefit other people. Yeah. Just like the way people give feedback and adding context and explaining the reason why there’s a correction it’s just just basic good communication.

Hannah: I think sometimes, I’ve seen it myself and I’ve heard about it too, when you’re the person that’s got the gumption to be like “hang on a moment this is a problem” it’s like there’s a big crowd behind you that are “thank goodness Emma’s talking”. But also oh shit we just need to use her as a human shield and now she’s going to be the poster girl for being a little bit outspoken. But she is also helping people and, kind of like Stuart said, if one person has the guts, the gumption, whatever it is to just actually advocate for themselves thank goodness by default they are advocating for others in their community. Which is incredible and actually what you have done so far and are continuing to do is that kind of permission to like-minded people to everybody really to advocate for yourself and the things that you believe in. Because it’s really vital both in companies and just in society really. You touched on the fact that obviously you needed managers, people in decision making positions to be on board and I’m guessing like all this stuff that you would have come up no doubt against some sort of skepticism or a bit of push back. What did you… I mean you’ve touched on it already a bit to some degree to say you just kind of kept advocating. Which is sometimes it’s just keep marching through the trenches regardless of people trying to grab you by the ankles and pull you back. But did you come up against any of that kind of stuff and what did you do to overcome it?

Emma Beattie: Um yeah, I think there were times where I had to bite my tongue. I had to swallow it and I’m not going to lie. You do have to play the game sometimes. You do have to, you know no matter how hard it is sometimes, I think you do need to stay within your lane. But that’s just in a work setting, you know. Like there’s other ways that you can channel some of what you’re really passionate about. I for one I mean, we haven’t talked about my business yet but…

Stuart: No, we’re teeing it up. We’re teasing people.

Emma Beattie: Yeah, but I think once you once you find your strengths and you know what you’re really passionate about. Even better if you can find what your purpose is. I think you know no workplace can take that away from you. You know, you’re an individual. I mean, yes, you have to do your job and some situations where unfortunately you are alone in the sense that you have to make your own accommodations.

Stuart: The entire kind of driving force behind the podcast is you’ve got to learn the red rope and you’ve got to learn the word no. And those two things absolutely saved my life and I say that without hyperbole. That is literally how I regain control of my life by saying to people no. And there’s the red rope.

Emma Beattie: You do have to set healthy boundaries and that’s partly why I started to speak up and advocate because I was being subjected to all this really unfair treatment and because I didn’t really understand that my brain just worked differently. I wasn’t able to sort of step in and I didn’t address it and that’s why it led to so many patterns of burnout. And just, you know, that lack of support or lack of awareness. So because I have that awareness if what another person is doing is going to be affecting me I will speak up. I will say you know can we work this a little bit differently, can we try this? This isn’t working for me? And sometimes you get met with “why are you trying to tell me to do my own job” kind of thing. There is that friction.

Stuart: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: But I think you owe it to yourself and your mental health to give your own feedback if something isn’t working

Hannah: Given everything you’ve just told us, which is incredible…sorry, I’m being a bit of a fan girl at this point. So, how did everything that you’ve done to date with all of the events and really finding your voice within the company. How did it eventually connect or tee up to the decision really to create the unmarked studio which we’ve touched on your business?

Emma Beattie: Yeah, my exciting new venture. So, my brain likes to connect things. I like to connect dots, you know, I’m quite observant to spotting patterns and I kept seeing the same gap over and over. You know, I was aware of all these fantastic neurodiversity charities and connected organisations and ADHD coaches and I’ve had my own ADHD coach. And then likewise, I was really building relationships with a lot of neurodivergent individuals who were out of work that had gone to university and they have had jobs in the past, but they’d also suffered a series of burnout. And some of them were late diagnosed and I really started to see a real sort of gap in the system in terms of employment pathways. You know, it just kind of got individuals so far and then it was “right, you’re just on your own”. And then I also saw the side of the standard approach or like the fair approach when it came to hiring new people and the interview process and having the standard set of questions and it just wasn’t as accessible.

Hannah: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: For someone going for an interview and I’ve hated going for interviews because I just don’t think it’s really a very natural reflection. Answering a series of questions like on the spot,you know, how does that give any indication of how that person’s going to do the job? [

Stuart: See, I’ve got this theory. I believe an interview is a fairly adversarial enterprise because it’s like, “Tell me about yourself. What about this?” You know, it’s very inquisitive. It’s like a police interview. It’s very invasive. And I’ve got this concept and the more I think about it, the more it kind of plays out that the neurotypicals…they like adversarial. They like a dual. They like backwards and forwards. Whereas the neurodivergent community prefers a dance. We like compatibility. We like to find common ground. We like to make sure that the vibe and the mood of people is set right before we, you know, let’s all join into this enterprise.

Emma Beattie: Yeah. So it started, The Unmasked Studio, started by picking up on quite an important..so the business itself is quite niche. That’s some of the feedback that I’ve had.

But for me it made complete sense to be the company that kind of bridges the gap. So working with incredible neurodivergent individuals felt like coaching them, helping them build their confidence, really uncover their strengths, because a lot of the times they don’t know what they are which is really sad.

Stuart: absolutely. Well, when you spend a lot of your time masking and just getting by in a workplace without having any time or energy to think about, “oh, how do I improve myself?”

Emma Beattie: Yeah, it can be tough. And I think that a lot of the work that’s being spent now in terms of awareness and it’s about changing the narrative because a lot of the historic talk around neurodiversity has been very deficit focused and very negative. So because of that I think people have seen a lot of their challenges as personal failings and no one’s ever actually said “do you know what, you’re absolutely awesome at this. Like you know pattern recognition or relationship building, and those things are so important”. So so important. You still have to have an understanding of what your challenges are.

Hannah: Yeah.]

Emma Beattie: Because then you can adapt certain environments, maybe surround yourself by other different types of people. So Unmasked Studio is half focused on the individuals. The other half is working with employers as well. So employers that specifically want to move past the awareness days that actually want to build truly inclusive working environments.

Hannah: Excellent. I love that. Do you find many of those, Emma? Do you have to hunt them?

Emma Beattie: Yeah. I’ve been pleasantly surprised by a few. So it’s Yeah, it’s definitely going in the right direction, but I think there is a lot of complacency. There’s a lot of holding a badge and thinking that that’s them done. You know, there’s a lot of like box ticking and again I think it’s important. Again, this is the injustice sensitivity. You know, there’s an economical incentive for businesses to really do this properly. There’s so much like funding and support available. It’s just up to businesses to really take action and then when they do, the reality is that they won’t just be helping neurodivergent individuals. They’ll be helping everyone else in the company.

Stuart: Well, that’s it. That’s because we’re human. We’re humankind. So, why aren’t we just kind to humans regardless of what neurotype like you touched on?

Emma Beattie: Yeah.

Hannah: From your perspective, what you’re talking about is this gap and helping the individual and the business sort of close it a little more? So, what does that genuine inclusion look like in practice? Can you perhaps give us some examples of certain things you look out for or try to help and assist on both sides of that equation?

Emma Beattie: Like I said, we support neurodivergent individuals. We also work with the employers as well. Um, so like our work doesn’t stop when someone’s hired.

Stuart: right

Emma Beattie: We actively want to help that individual and the employer. So like the hiring manager or even before that during the interview process, you know, not having the same recruitment procedure because it’s seemingly seen as fair. Because I don’t think it’s anything to do about equality. It’s more equity that they should be thinking about.

Hannah: Yes.

Emma Beattie: Um you know, what are the adjustments? It’s something really really basic like not many people know that they can ask for the interview questions in advance. Wouldn’t that be amazing?

Hannah: And no one likes a surprise. [36]

Emma Beattie: But people can actually ask. If a prospective employer denied that right, that you have, it would be a bit of a red flag, wouldn’t it?

Stuart: Oh, immediately. Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah: Yeah. I remember being in an interview once and they said, “If you were a chocolate bar, what would you be?” And my autistic brain went, “I’m not a chocolate bar. I’m a human.” Next! Like I couldn’t be chocolate. made out of skin. What!?

Stuart: My answer would be eaten. If I was a chocolate bar, what would I be? I’d be eaten. I’d eaten myself.

Emma Beattie: Yeah. No more a rapper. Yeah, but it’s just like what does that question answer even give them? It  just doesn’t make any sense?

Hannah: It’s utter rubbish and it’s literally Sorry to interrupt you, Emma. It’s just there to see how you react under pressure, which is a terrible place for everybody to be. But certainly for a neurodivergent person, it doesn’t separate the wheat from the chaff. It just puts a lot of neurodivergent people into total what? Where am I? Shut down. And then they go, “oh, they can’t think on their feet”. No, I really can. I’m brilliant at thinking on my feet. But you’ve just switched my brain off with some strange tangent that makes no sense to me.

Emma Beattie: Exactly. And they’re not giving people the fair opportunity. In my mind, if you were to give a new candidate a problem to solve, give them a challenge, you know, give them a brief like a well written brief with no ambiguity and then invite them to share how they would go about that particular challenge or what new solution they would come up with, because that is what employers want to see. That is an individual bringing value back to the business. not the series of questions about what chocolate bar you would be rubbish.

Hannah: it’s utter rubbish it literally is unless unless you’re working in a job where you know let’s say was it your job at Cadburys… hang on a minute. It wasn’t in my Cadburys interview. Yeah I worked for Cadburys for years and that would have been more understandable. But unless you’re working in a situation where life or death, you know what does this person do under pressure. I was literally a rep in this job interview. I’m like, does it matter? Is anyone going to die if Hannah doesn’t put the right shelf up? Like, no, idiots. It’s so annoying.

Stuart: So, where do you see Unmasked masked studio going? What’s the future? What’s the bigger vision?

Emma Beattie: So, I think yeah, bigger bigger vision. Ideally, a world where neurodivergent people don’t have to choose between being authentic and being successful. I think that that would be incredible. And really that’s why I started Unmasked Studio. I was seeing, and I have candidates that are already incredible. But because of certain expectations, their self-esteem has been affected. They are repeatedly getting invited along to interviews but they’re struggling. So I’m like “well then we need to fix where that barrier is”. So that’s what the business will be continuing to help fix. Because I don’t actually think it’s anything to do with the people. It’s the process. It’s the barriers that people face. It’s nothing to do with the individuals

Stuart: When the process is broken and it doesn’t serve the humans that are dealing with it. my brain just goes into free fall. My engineering head just goes, “we could solve this”. This is not beyond the wit of man. If we can put somebody on the moon and put an international space station above us, surely we can solve some of these very simple, even to the point where I want to stop using the word, accommodations. Oh, you’re doing me a favour, are you? Oh, thank you. Surely it should be a customisation of my work working environment so that you get the most out of me.

Emma Beattie: Well, yeah, that’s it. And that’s what I say to some of my candidates. It’s risky disclosing. It’s obviously very challenging sometimes to actually speak up and say you know I need these certain accommodations. But if you reframe it in the way the business understands, as in “if you can support me in this manner then that means I can bring my best self to work and it’s a performance improvement and you’re getting more out of me”.  Not just, say, talking around the struggles but actually bringing it back to the business. And I think that’s why my experience, my lived experience working in corporate, always brings it back to the business. Like what benefits the business.

Stuart: yeah

Emma Beattie: Again, once you know the rules then I think it’s easy.

Hannah: Also, what you’re doing, especially with the focus on the recruitment process, So from day one you’re saying.. because I’m sure both of you have too, undoubtedly. I’ve done jobs where I showed up for the interview like corporate Hannah, and then I masked for about five years like, no worries, I’m on it, like corporate Hannah in a dodgy ‘ 90s suit. That is not sustainable. And I did a very good job coz I was young, I had a lot more energy, and I masked, you know, whatever it was, eight hours a day for a long time. But that takes its toll. Actually, what you’re doing and the work that you’re doing and the work that we’re doing means turn up day one as yourself from that point onwards and yeah, okay, I’m going to hide my stims in an office environment because people are undoubtedly going to file me under crazy if they saw them. But actually turn up from day one, not have this ridiculous interview process where you’re faking to be somebody else. Coz once you’ve done that, it’s like going on a date and sucking your belly in for the whole time. From that point onwards, you’re like, they now think I’m thin. I’m doomed for the rest of my life with this person. Bit of a tangent. Sorry. But do you see what I’m saying? Turning up as your authentic self and then actually being able to, that’s how we sustain that energy.

Emma Beattie: Absolutely. You just got you just cut through all the nonsense from the very beginning. Unmasked Studio does partner with recruitment companies to complement what the recruitment companies do. They’re focused on volume placing people in positions and then they move on to the next and that’s usually the business model to me that doesn’t necessarily make any sense. Because an employer’s hired someone. Yes they have all the notes and everything like during the interview, even if that person is neurodivergent they’re not necessarily going to feel comfortable in being able to ask for the support so early on. And that’s why Unmasked Studio would be there just to ensure, not to disclose anything because that’s up to the candidate. That’s up to them. But we want to ensure that that person has the best onboarding experience and that the hiring manager really gets it. Like even if they’re got some level of understanding, but it’s the business benefit.

Stuart: Yeah. Business benefit and also the individual benefit as well. Not allowing someone just to pretend to to mask..well, they’re going to pay for that down the line.

Emma Beattie: Well, that’s it. Yeah. Exactly. So, it’s just it’s just counterintuitive to just wait until someone’s at crisis point. Just tackle it from the very beginning.

Stuart: Yeah. Absolutely. Before you have a mental health crisis. So if Emma was given a magic wand and put into a business and could wave that magic wand and make any changes whatsoever and be supported by the board or whoever, where would you start? What would be your first conversations? How would you go about that?

Emma Beattie: So some of the services that we offer in my Unmasked Studio are speaking opportunities. So a fireside chat, panel discussion, And that’s really what the business is looking for at the moment. And it’s usually the first place that employers start with. That’s in terms of raising awareness internally like having open conversation. And then there’s hopefully there’s other steps that they can take after looking at what they’re really willing to be accountable for. And and how they promote that out externally to the world as well, because I think that they benefit so much from a differentiator like in the market. To say “okay, yes, we have our disability confident badge, but these are all the other things that we do and we hold ourselves accountable for these various things”. So, I think I would love to see more businesses sharing with the world what they are actually doing.

Stuart: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: Like what are they actually doing? You know, like lots of people can have a disability confidence badge or sign up to various things but I haven’t really seen many businesses that actually detail the commitments and the steps that they’re taking. that actually changes people’s day-to-day experience.

Stuart: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: And I would love to see more businesses do that.

Stuart: That was one of the main drivers actually and main thinking points behind our audit, Is like you can’t be from my world, my engineering world, my web development world, you can’t make any changes until you know where you are. Otherwise, you’re just plucking random ideas. So if we got some data points about how attitudes, thoughts, learning, education and understanding in businesses actually is, you’ve got a better chance of going “that’s where we need to apply the change.

Emma Beattie: Exactly. And I think again for me and like my background in customer success is all around the metrics in terms of  “what is your baseline?” So a company’s baseline could be “what is your retention rate?” and looking at the sort of mental health side of things, “how many of your employers are signed off for stress”.

Stuart: It’s a great metric though, you know, how many days have you lost to mental health issues or stress

Emma Beattie: Or people leaving because again that has a cost associated with the business. You know, some businesses pay the recruitment fee and then you have maybe some training cost associated. So if that individual has a poor experience, why is it up to the individual? I mean it’s going to cost the business anyway, you might as well address what may happen in the future head on.

Hannah:  Absolutely.  I was reading something the other day and it said the younger generations are not viewing this stuff as a nice to have.

Stuart: No, it isn’t.

Hannah: I worked on a ESG project years ago for quite some time and the amount of what they called ‘greenwashing’. People were like “I’ve planted some trees… next”. And you were like, no, no, no. That’s not being eco-friendly. That’s just pretending. And we don’t want this to become something that companies reluctantly find a way to look like they’re doing it.

Emma Beattie: Yeah.

Hannah: We want companies to fully understand the benefits and sadly often that is a bottom line return on investment thing for them. Which is disappointing from a personal point of view, but actually if it gets it moving in the right direction that’s great. Um but yeah we don’t want people pretending to look after our spicy brains.

Emma Beattie: So that’s the difference between performative inclusion and genuine inclusion. You know performative is doing things you know like posting things on social media because it makes the company look good. But real inclusion is “how do the changes actually benefit individuals like day-to-day?”. If you make those changes it doesn’t just mean businesses should stop treating inclusion like it is just something for neurodivergent people.

Stuart: Yes. That’s the point. It’s this accommodation malarkey can be applied to anybody. It doesn’t have to be somebody with a condition, a diagnosis or a disability.

Emma Beattie: Exactly.. And that is the ridiculous thing, that some of these accommodations don’t cost a huge amount either.

Hannah: No, they really don’t.

Emma Beattie: No. So, I think what I’d like to see in the future is that we don’t really have to say like or justify why you’re asking for certain things.

Hannah: Yeah.

Emma Beattie: You almost have to prove that you’re that broken to get someone to sort of really take you seriously. And it shouldn’t be like that. It should just be taking in a business concept or construct less about HR.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: And a nice to have.

Stuart: Yes. Oh, let’s make a tick box exercise. Hands up if you’re a neurodivergent who needs accommodation and therefore needs to find a new job. Oh, you got me. I didn’t hear the last bit until you said I was so keen and eager.

Emma Beattie: Yeah. Yeah. But what I’d like to see is less nervousness about people actually coming forward and saying I need these things, without feeling like they’re asking for special treatment. Because they’re not.

Stuart: No

Emma Beattie: It’s nothing to do with that. And Hannah, you mentioned the younger generation that are coming through and the fact that they’ve grown up with a lot more awareness and a lot of them have been early diagnosed so have that greater understanding. And I think the fear is that the working world hasn’t quite caught up and there’s going to be certain expectations of the younger generation. I think there’s going to be a bigger problem than there already is now.

Hannah: You mentioned collaborators but as a result of this conversation who would you most like to hear from or connect with? You know you mentioned collaborators but potential clients or investors or people who are listening now. Who would you like to hear from?

Emma Beattie: I would like to hear from more employers. I now feel really confident that I’ll be able to give their company a bit more guidance and a starting point. Because I think that the problem is they’re very comfortable doing the awareness days, but then what happens after? So, that’s where Unmasked Studio steps in. So, I’m keen to speak with employers, could be disability, confident badged, but actually want to build out a truly inclusive working environment. And like I said, a lot of businesses, the first step is a buyer chat type panel discussion to build that psychological safe environment. I think a lot of employees really need right now.

Stuart: 100%.

Hannah: Absolutely.

Stuart: Emma, if somebody wanted to get hold of you, wanted to get in touch with you, where would they go? What would they do? How do they get in touch? What’s their first step if they’ve heard this and thought to themselves, let’s get Unmasked Studio in and sort out our diversity and and neuroinclusivity program?

Emma Beattie: So they can head to my website  www.unmaskedstudio.co.uk. Or they can obviously, there’s a contact form etc. People can connect with me as an individual on LinkedIn. I also have a company LinkedIn page as well.

Stuart: We’ll put all the links.

Emma Beattie: Yeah, put all the links and things, but I put them together so Unmasked Studio has newsletters as well that we post out, some of which are saved on the website. So, people are very welcome to download those. The topics are usually things that have kind of caught my eye or like you know industry kind of insights, thought leadership type approach. Again, working in the corporate world I’ve had access to a lot of good material.

Stuart: Very diplomatic.

Emma Beattie: Yeah, it’s been really useful. Really useful for paying off all that trauma. But I think the element of the thought leadership side is a very  important part of everyone’s learning and understanding. I think that’s what we’ve done. It is more around actually making a concerted effort to understand and adapt.

Stuart: Yes. Just putting a you know autism awareness month banner up on your website. What does that change? It doesn’t unless you’re actually activating knowledge and pathways and changing them. You know it’s another nice to have sticker that, like you say, is there anything supporting that badge. It’s been lovely to talk to you today. It’s fascinating to find out that there are other people out there banging the drum about neuroinclusion and doing something about it and having your experience and focus on that. I’m sure we’ll talk again. I’m sure we may even have you back again as a guest. It’s been fantastic to learn about what Unmasked Studio does. Um Hannah, have you got any final comments? Final words?

Hannah: Final comments. No, we’ve covered so much. I just think you’re perfectly placed to do this work. You’ve got so much experience and you’re living it, too. And it’s brilliant. It excites me, this stuff. It really does. It’s such an important change that needs to happen. And I get full of joy when I see people actively doing it. There’s not enough of us yet.

Stuart: But there will be somewhere. We’re building the army.

Hannah: We are, aren’t we? building the odd squad.

Emma Beattie: No, I love it. I love it. And again, I’d to just like to say thank you so much for your encouragement and I suppose like you my confidence building came from meeting like-minded individuals and that’s probably the last thing last piece of advice I would leave your listeners with. Find your people.

Stuart: Oh yes.

Hannah: Yeah

Stuart: Find your people. Find your. Get a t-shirt made with, you know.

Emma Beattie: I love that.

Stuart: Find your people. Find your tribe. I’ll think of something.

Hannah: Find your tribe.

Stuart: That’s what I used to do for many, many years. It was all merch and slogans and mug mugs, mouse mats, and socks. If you want a slogan on a mug, a mouse mat or a sock, come and have a word.

Emma Beattie: Hey, I could have a little web shop on my website, Stu.

Stuart: Oh, yes.

Hannah: Love it.

Stuart: Fantastic to have you, Emma. Thank you so much. Um, any of the listeners listening all of the details will be in all the various places below next to or on the website. And thanks for listening to another well the first groundbreaking Business Oddcast with our first guest. And don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe. If you liked anything you’ve heard or you’ve got any questions fire them through to Hannah and I at hosts@businessodcast.com. Hannah, any final words before we say goodbye and play the outro?

Hannah: Just a huge thank you, Emma, for coming on and being the most magnificent first guest on the Business Oddcast. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you.

Stuart: Yes, same here. Brilliant. And if there’s any help that we can provide or you’ve got any questions for us, you know, do stay in touch. Thanks very much everyone for listening and uh we’ll see you next time. Goodbye.

S01E37 – When Your Special Interest Becomes Your Business

You know that thing you’d do for free, at 2am, for eleven hours straight, without eating? Yeah. What happens when someone pays you for THAT?

Welcome back to the Business Oddcast — the podcast for neurodivergent entrepreneurs, hyperfocused founders, and anyone who’s ever turned a “weird little hobby” into an actual, functioning business (and then wondered why the joy disappeared).

This week, Hannah and Stu are diving headfirst into the obsession-to-income pipeline: the dopamine highs, the hyperfocus spirals, the accidental business empires built out of pure special-interest chaos — and the very real tension of loving something SO much you forget to charge for it properly.

We’re talking monetising by-products, mastering the firebreak, why “successful” can quietly become “trapped,” and — because we never do just one topic — a full-throttle rant about late diagnosis and female healthcare.

Plus: Stu’s branding meltdown, Hannah’s graveyard of past businesses, and why building a business that grows with you is basically a 1970s cartoon.

Special interest. Actual income. Zero chill.

Let’s get into it.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:21 – Introducing the NeuroInclusive Workspace – Take the NIq Audit
00:03:40 – Topic of the Week – When Your Special Interest Becomes Your Business
00:03:50 – Topic introduction – What happens when the thing you love, pays the bills.
00:05:38 – Projects, ideas. EVERYWHERE! Hannah lists her earlier businesses
00:07:07 – What’s the catalyst for the change?
00:09:30 – The tension – being paid for something you’d do for free and not making (enough) money – LINK TO PREVIOUS EPISODE ON PRICING BELOW
00:13:29 – The Obsession Stage – doing what you LOVE! Stu’s branding challenge
00:16:25 – Monetising obsessions – can you “sell” the “by-products”?
– LINK TO BLOG ABOUT DOPAMINE BELOW
00:17:53 – Obsessions are a dopamine rich environment – but are important
00:19:21 – Why the obsession stage is important when starting out
00:20:36 – Obsessions build knowledge, which can be sold, but avoid the death of joy
00:21:40 – When passion creates chaos and the repercussions of hyperfocus
00:23:30 – Mastering the obsessive hyperfocus & importance of firebreaks
00:26:08 – Passion projects can boost energy, or at least drain you less quickly
00:26:59 – The three issues that always derail your finely balanced energy needs
00:28:17 – Why loving what you do helps more than “the money’s good”.
00:31:05 – What happens when all the business stuff steals the joy?
00:33:40 – Why successful small businesses become the perfect jail cell
00:34:40 – Stu – A RANT ABOUT LATE DIAGNOSIS AND FEMALE HEALTHCARE!
00:36:01 – What’s the best business move when the passion fades?
00:39:09 – Reap the rewards of idle curiosity
00:42:50 – Why building a business that grows with you is like 1970s cartoon Mr. Ben
00:44:55 – Hannah’s tips and takeaways
00:46:45 – Stu’s tips and takeaways
00:52:00 – Round up and plug for our NeuroInclusiveWorkplace.com
00:55:55 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES
BLOG – Following The Dopamine
https://businessoddcast.com/following-the-dopamine/

EP32 – Pricing When You Don’t Trust Your Sense of Value
https://businessoddcast.com/podcast/pricing-when-you-dont-trust-your-sense-of-value-s01e32/

https://businessoddcast.com/the-oddcast-manifesto – Link to the Neuroinclusive Manifesto, Lets build a better, more inclusive society.

https://businessoddcast.com/niq-free-audit target – A Neuroinclusive Workplace self-audit test for employers, teams, and the self-employed. Built on the social model of disability and the idea that barriers are designed in environments, not people.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

S01E37 – When Your Special Interest Becomes Your Business

Stuart: Welcome to another business podcast. You’re very welcome to be here. We’re your hosts today, Stuart Morrison and my lovely co-host

Hannah: Hannah Logan.

Stuart: Before we get started today, before we get into today’s topic, I just wanted to cover off something that we’ve been working on now for a few months. We decided that the best thing we could do is instead of saying to everybody “ oh, come and join us as self-employed”  let’s make workplaces somewhere that you don’t have to leave just to earn a crust. So, we came up with the neuroinclusive workplace. We’ve created not only some resources, but we’ve also created an audit called the neuroinclusive quotient or NIQ. What this is is a series of questions that determines how neuroinclusive your workplace is. It takes five minutes. It asks very simple questions and you just score yourself on the answers. And at the end, it gives you three suggestions of how to get started to make a more neuro neuroinclusive workplace. And it’s absolutely 100% free, always will be. We’d love for all of the people who listen to go and have a look and complete it. Take you about five minutes. You don’t have to be a business owner. You don’t have to have a corporation. Just tell us what your business is like. Hannah, what do you think about the neuroinclusive workplace?

Hannah: Well, It’s absolutely blooming marvelous, isn’t it?

Stuart: It is. Yeah.

Hannah: Um, I think we would be doing a disservice to our community if we not only have provided this place that we have here with the oddcast and our odd squad, where we are building a tribe of people that can all help each other and advise each other.

Stuart: That’s it. That’s what it is. It’s about peer support. We don’t have all the answers. We have a piece of the puzzle. and we’ve got various approaches that worked for us that we can share. But we’re much stronger as a community if we can find out the real sticking points, the problems where things run off the rails. Because early interventions prevent all of the bad things that we’ve been talking about.

Hannah: Absolutely that. And now we’re going into businesses, councils, various different fabulous contacts that I won’t spoiler alert right now. And we are advocating for you. We are advocating for ourselves. We are advocating for the neurodivergent community because we want employment to be a nicer place for you. We don’t want people tortured in employment anymore. There’s no reason that that should be happening.

Stuart: So I that’s a long winded introduction for the neuroinclusive workplace and we’re not going to wang on about it every episode, but it is kind of the launch of this project and you’ll be seeing it included on the website to start with. It will eventually have its own website. Um, but most of the information will be on the oddcast site anyway because you know the two projects go hand in hand.

Hannah Logan: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. This is basically a birth announcement.

Stuart: It is

Hannah: Hannah and Stu gave birth. Or the oddcast gave birth.

Stuart: It’s a beautiful neuroinclusive baby. Let’s get on with today’s show. So today, Hannah, what is the topic of today’s episode?

Hannah: Well, Stu, I’m not going to say it. Today’s episode topic is ‘when your special interest becomes your business’. So between us, from what I know of you, and I certainly know a lot about myself, I’m guessing we’ve started a fair few passion projects and businesses.

Stuart Morrison: one or two. I might even have more than one or two right now.

Hannah: Certainly a fair old bucket full of ambitious ideas over the years. Um, and that won’t just be us, right? I think neurodivergent people in general, but especially in my experience, neurodivergent people do like to collect ideas a bit like Pokémon cards. Um, not to diminish it. Pokémon rules! But because we don’t just get interested in something. A lot of the time we completely disappear into it. And actually, you know, special interest and hyperfocus can be incredible strengths. I’m not going to be that arsehole that calls them superpowers. Oh, no. I just did. But I don’t mean it like that. But some of those hyperfocuses, special interests, you know, can become businesses. And sometimes that’s brilliant. Sometimes it’s utter chaos. Um, we’ll probably touch on that later. later on. One of my many failed, actually not many failed, miserable situations.

Stuart: Not failed. There is no such thing as failure. It was a learning experience. You discovered several ways that you didn’t want to do this job and then left it.

Hannah: I like that viewpoint. It’s less self-deprecating. But today we’re basically talking about what happens when the thing that you love becomes the thing that pays the bills. Surely that must be like a life goal. right there. Getting paid, paying your bills, doing the thing you love. Um, that leads me rather nicely onto the first talking point. 

Stuart: Why would you do anything else?

Hannah: I know. Um, although I like eating, I’m not getting paid to…oh my god, I could be one of those people that goes into restaurants then does a little podcast about it. Um, that’s your first tangent. You’re welcome. Uh, first talking point, project people. So, looking back personally at my own career, I definitely wasn’t climbing a career ladder. I think probably when I left uni, I’d talked myself into the idea that I had a five-year plan. I totally didn’t. I was just literally following whatever fascinated me at the time. And at the very beginning when I left uni, it was Bass Brewery actually. So it was beer.

Stuart: How did that work out for you Hannah?

Hannah Logan: Not so well. Um and then you know, so every time one project finished, another one grabbed my attention and I kind of moved on or I saw a shiny new  job application etc etc. Over the years I’ve kind of, once I became self-employed, I’ve done various things from cleaning when the kids were tiny. I loved a bit of cleaning. You know put the music on and crack on with some cleaning. I made cakes for a living that was, yeah, that got messy in the end. Too many bridezillas. Writing… virtual assistant. That lasted a very short amount of time!

Stuart: Hang on, I’m going to interrupt you, okay? So, we’re going to go through how we have basically had all these different special interests and turned them and monetized them in various ways, but I’m interested in this question. What’s the catalyst for the change? And I know what works for me. I know what my thing is and I’ve given people advice because they come to me and they say, “Stuart, my business isn’t doing X. And nine times out of 10 the first thing that I want to know is how invested they are in the business that they’ve got. You know, is this a passion thing? Is this just a convenience thing? What is this thing? Because then I can kind of understand their mindset. So, what made you change?

Hannah: So, that’s a really good question because at the beginning, when I was a cleaner at the very beginning, I did some bar work and cleaning. I alternated between the two. Um I did it because the kids were tiny and it fitted in. It was convenient. It fitted in really well around having kids. I could be self-employed with the cleaning, so I could slot it into my own timetable.

Stuart: The flexible hours,

Hannah: flexible hours, which was perfect. Um and then, you know, then I became the cake maker. I was making novelty cakes anyway. And I think one too many people said, “Oh, you should do this as a business.” And I said, “Maybe I will.” Boredom made me stop that. And one too many bridezillas, as I’ve already said, but actually, once the kids got a bit older and I got beyond convenience, it then became about things I love doing. So then it really was just chasing the things I love doing. You know, I love making cakes and novelty cakes. Why don’t I just get paid to do that?

Stuart: We’ll find out later on why that’s not always the best strategy.

Hannah: So I think in answer to your question, the reasons change, but often for me, the thing that pivots me is boredom or the thing that kind of, you know, takes my attention is a shiny new thing. Having said that, when I’m embroiled in something I absolutely believe in and love, like the Oddcast, then there is nothing that can pull me away from that.

Stuart: It’s a strange tension between wanting to do something that people will pay you money for and the thing that you would do for free if there was nothing else to do in your life ever. And one of the difficulties, and we’ll look at this in some detail in a bit, one of the difficulties is knowing what to charge. And we did a whole episode on that, and the links will be in the description. But there’s a whole mindset piece about this thing that you had a passion for suddenly becoming a chore. When you were doing these projects that you were more passionate about. And this is the one that I haven’t squared away. So, I’m asking this for insight. How do you square that it’s not making money because it drives me batty because it feels like… just to give you a little insight as to what’s going on inside here. It feels like the world is unfair because this is the thing that I want to work on and yet for whatever reason the world has decided that the value that I can see it can’t. And that’s so annoying because it’s frustrating because you’re like “this thing is important people”, you know, and I guess the neuroinclusive workplace and the oddcast are a bit of a passion project, but there are other projects that I’ve worked on that have been far more frivolous that I have been like absolutely like a fire brand, you know, like passionate about and can’t see why other people don’t find it as as all obsessive. How do you square that?

Hannah: So, for me, and I totally hear what you’re saying and it makes a lot of sense, personally and my cake making is a really good example of this. I did it because I loved doing it so much and I did it for quite a few years. I never fully understood the value because my brain kept saying “ but you love doing this, like you know, why would you even charge for it? It’s literally your fun place”. So initially I was totally unbusinessy at that point. I thought, “well cover the cost of the ingredients”. I didn’t even consider what my hourly rate might be, I hadn’t done any kind of market research. And once I’d started charging..

Stuart: Market research, why would you do that?

Hannah: What the hell’s that? And after I’d charged like, you know, 30 quid for the first two tier wedding cake..

Stuart: Wow.

Hannah: Um, yeah, I was making a loss consistently. It wasn’t my finest business model. Um, once I’d started like that, I got the name, the reputation for “like her cakes are Amazing. And they are basically free”.

Stuart: Yeah, see this is what happens when you’re cheap.

Hannah: And weirdly enough, because nowadays I understand in the service work that I do now, I understand that actually if you undercharge, you’ll just be seen as not being very good at what you do. But when it was a physical product, a cake, they could see and taste that it was brilliant. So there was none of that, well, is it going to be shit? Because they’d seen the photos, they’d seen the testimonials. But actually, once I’d undercharged, I could never go back. And one time I did try and charge a bit more for one and I got push back because obviously this person had been referred to me because she’s crazy cheap and brilliant. So I threw myself into the fire on day one really quite literally. Um so yeah. But don’t get me wrong, I’m a massive believer in silver linings and I learned so much from that. 

Stuart: Oh you if you don’t, in business, make mistakes then you won’t learn things. And in some of these lessons, you can have somebody sit there and go, “Oh, I wouldn’t do it like that.” But as we all know, when the brain knows what it wants to do, it’s going to go and do it. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I’ll take that under advisement. Thank you very much for your insight.

Hannah: And fuck off.

Stuart: And what is your name? Mr. Gregs. Mr. Gregs. Is it okay? All right. Thank you.

Hannah: Oh my god. Brilliant. I think that..I mean we’ve touched on this a bit, but that kind of takes us nicely into the next talking point. Really,

Stuart: the obsession stage.

Hannah: Yes, we’ve been there, Stu.

Stuart: The passion obsession thing I absolutely 100% believe should be the starting point for what you’re going to do for two reasons. One, what else are you going to do with your time? You know, so why would you go into something you hated? Now, I do have an approach to business which I’ve talked about before, which is tea bags and toilet paper. The d um the thing but my my interest is in the numbers is in the branding is in the business growth the the what I’m growing I can make I I I tell you what I promise you whatever product you put in the comments I will make a fun interesting exciting thing that you’d go oh actually I might I might buy that there you go there’s a challenge because that’s the way my brain works I look at something and my brain goes put a twist on it. How would you do that? What would you do differently? What if you blew it up to that size? What if you shrunk it down to this size? What would it look like if it was in gold or pink? And whether I’m not doing that. I’m not in charge of it. It’s like a ball rolling down a hill. It’s like the amount of times I’m driving around and I see somebody with a shop and I think, “Oh, they should rebrand it. They should do this with it and that with it and my brain just fills out everything. And I deliver this whole present to the person and they champion me out of the room and slap me on the back and they give me shares and we have champagne and…

Hannah: no hugs,

Stuart: No. No touching. Get me off your shoulders. This is highly inappropriate and it’s just you. If it was a team of people, it would be different. This is just you making me feel awkward sitting on your shoulders. What’s this? Anyway, the point is that you’re going to have to get through some very dark days when you’re growing a business there. I’m telling you now, there will be days when you will think to yourself, is this worth it? I’ll just go and get a job. But believe me, this is the motivator. Think about a boss. It could be a dark day in your business, but you don’t have a boss. You are going to have dark days in the future, whether you’ve got a job or not a job, but if you have a dark day with a job, you’ve got a boss. You’ve always got the boss. It’s a dark day with a boss. It’s a dark day that somebody else has given you. At least this is your dark day and that’s it. You know, it’s better to be smeared in your own shit than someone else’s, marginally. And remember, sometimes you’re the statue, sometimes you’re the pigeon. You know, in every life a little rain must fall. But you see, I have tried to monetize obsessions that have gone nowhere. I have tried to ignore obsessions that have kept coming back to the point where I’m like, “Oh, I might as well monetize this.” Because this is the byproduct, right? I do a lot of stuff online, but because I’ve got a lot of online properties, I ended up with this massive hosting account. And I thought, well, I’m paying for it. I might as well just allow people to host on it with me. And I started charging a few people and they liked the service that I provided because I was doing it for myself anyway. And that grew into a hosting business. I didn’t want a hosting business. I didn’t set out to have a hosting business, but a hosting business is what I ended up with. And it was because of my own passion in the web and building websites and promoting my own products. There can be byproducts of your obsession as it were that you could monetize. And the way that you get to the point where you allow somebody else to run it for you is the way I see it. I’ve set up a money stream that I will gift to somebody else to run as long as they pay me 50%. That’s all they got to do. They can have all of the rest of it. I will help them do all the bits that I like doing. It’s 50/50. Always going to be 50/50 because, you know, it’s just fair. Nobody argues with that.

Hannah: But Stu, do you like that? So, personally, I really like that kind of new idea obsession stage that can be really distracting, but I love that. I feel a bit like a crack addict when I’m in it. You know what I mean? It’s like I’m blinking in the dark and I’ve gone down the 50th rabbit hole and I’m just kind of doing a side quest course, signing up for shit watching YouTube videos,

Stuart: subscribing to tools,

Hannah: subscribing to all the tools.

Stuart: Yeah. No, I’ve never done that.

Hannah: Just don’t look at my bank account or anything. I don’t want to go off on one about dopamine because, you know, we’ve had a blog last week about that, but yeah, I like the obsession stage. It can be all consuming.

Stuart: It’s like a love affair. Oh, yeah. It’s the courting. Who says that? It’s dopaminerich environment. You can go and splash around in the fields of dopamine and rub it all over yourself and feel really, really good. Right up until the moment you stare at your bank account and go, “Oh, fuck”. I’ve wasted the entire week learning all about German logo types in the 1920s and I’m now quite sure that I know everything. But where does that get you with your customers, Stu? It doesn’t get me anywhere. Nobody cares whether or not the logo type was from a German type foundry that’s no longer around. Yeah. The obsession stage is important though. I find that the obsession stage for me is the point where I determined whether or not I can do this long term because like once you’ve run through an entire idea and you’ve deep dived it and you’ve researched it and you’ve reviewed it and you’ve detailed it and you’ve thought about it and you’ve dug underneath it, if you’re still passionate about it, go do it. But if you’ve done all that and you’re a bit like… I know now to put things down like they’re not working, Stu, walk away from them. The obs stage has started to, you know, you got to get up and do this again. I often say if your feet hit the carpet for too many mornings in a row and you get that, find a new job, find a new project, do something new, find a new partner. I mean, you know, I don’t know. You do you. Whatever is the cause of the “god, not this again”, you know. And I think that’s the key to it. It’s not just that you have a momentary obsession. You have an enduring passion.

Hannah: When we know a lot about something, we’ve immersed ourselves in it for years, be it a hobby or just something that we’re super super interested in, we build so much knowledge that invariably at some point either somebody, this has happened to me before, somebody says, “Oh, you’re really good at that. Could you do that for me?” And then suddenly you’re like, “Kaching. Oh, okay. Somebody actually wants to buy this from me, this knowledge. We’re taking something we’re really good at and monetizing it.” Because the other reality is that if you go down that route quite quickly. In my experience, you can suck out any joy that you had in that specialist subject, you know, and that’s exactly what happened with my cakes. I went from somebody that loved making them to somebody that started to dread it. Um, it took me a few years to realise how much I dreaded it, but Yeah.

Stuart: Yeah. It starts as a creeping gnoring.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And then all the joys, it’s suddenly not a hobby that you turned into money. It’s a hobby that you used to love and now you dread it. So, like you said, with the feet on the carpet. Well, that leads us, I think, probably nicely into the next talking point. When passion creates chaos. 

Stu: Yeah. There is a certain energy, a certain vibe, a certain focus, which as we all know, a little bit of hyperfocus can really kind of wreck you. And if you extend that into something which is an obsession or a passion and a growing business, it can be detrimental to your own well-being in many areas. I’m not just talking about physical and mental, emotional, but also the obsession to pursue something at the cost of everything else. Your relationships can really strain. And I know that I’ve strained my own uh and I just have a fantastic partner who understood that eventually I would surface and this was my mode of operation. Uh but you know it takes trust in a relationship to go “my partner is now spending seemingly 20 hours a day working so hard that I can’t seem to, you know, even get you to stop for meals”. And you can see the person not only destroying themselves but sort of retreating from you into this cave of obsession. And that’s where the chaos starts because you lose ties, you lose touch, you lose sleep, you lose energy, you lose regulation, you lose grasp on reality in some cases. You know, your inside the tent thinking becomes very very loud and that creates all sorts of tensions because you’re only seeing things from one viewpoint. How have you dealt with it over the years? Because I have not not mastered it.

Hannah: Yeah. No. Um I haven’t mastered it either. I’ve definitely got better, but I am by my very nature once I’m in it. I mean, it’s one of the reasons I’m a great friend, right? Because when I’m in a friendship, I won’t fucking let you down. But also, if I’m in an obsessive project, then I’m like, you know, if people come near me, I’m like a dog guarding its dinner bowl. I’m like, “No, I’m busy. Stop talking to me.”

Stuart: I’ve got a few days coming up and it’s an absolute it’s I’m getting a bit stressed about it because and as we’ve discussed in episodes past the holiday that people think hey we..

Hannah: Boo… thoughts and prayers

Stuart: Um, but the point to it is that I’m being taken from my absolute passion project at the moment that the oddcast. Um, it lights me up like nothing else. I’ve been obsessed for the last three weeks. I have just chucked everything I have. Pretty much every waking moment has been talking, thinking about or dealing with something to do with the oddcast or the neuroinclusive workplace and as such you know you reap the rewards of it. It’s like planting seeds but I am so glad I’ve got this break coming up because I need to step away from the obsession for enough time for my brain to come back and go oh you’ve done that wrong this is not quite right. That’s when you get a bit blind to it. 

Hannah: Yeah

Stuart Morrison: It’s the fire break thing. I need a fire break and it needs to be an entire week’s fire break because I have been going for so hard. But maybe I did it knowing I had the break. I’m sure there’d be somebody somewhere, a psychiatrist or whatever, telling me it’s a bad strategy for me. I like to do the sprints and then lie down. And for a bit, it works. 

Hannah: I definitely need the fire breaks that you’ve just described, but I kind of like to hit it hard and then, you know, go and sort of lie down for a bit and then hit it hard because I think maybe.. my theory is that my autistic brain and my ADHD brain are kind of bouncing off each other at that point, you know? You know, that could be utter bullshit that I’ve just made up, but that’s what it feels like to me. There are two parts to me and I kind of need that intensity and it’s maybe not nice for the people around me, but I need that deep dive intensity, but then I’m also self-aware enough to know that I also need that fire break. There’s a lot of truth in the idea that when you love the work that you’re doing, you’ve got that passion for it. It is not such, or I certainly find this, it’s not draining your energy in a really hugely demanding way. I mean, it obviously is if you’re not getting any sleep and not eating and not going to the loo, and just like fully living and breathing it at some kind of light speed. But actually when you’re really enjoying it, it comes much more naturally to your brain. Or that’s what I kind of feel and it almost feeds your energy rather than zapping it. You know what I mean? If you compare that to something that’s just painful that you really don’t want to do.

Stuart: Yeah. It’s again, you’ve got your screen on full brightness and you’re plowing through the battery just to get it done. And unfortunately, I think there’s a lot of neurododivergents who get through the week in that mode then get to the weekend and feel that if I can recharge I can get ready for the following week. Well I’ve just seen it way too many times. There will be a variable that you are relying on that changes either an interpersonal one, an energetic health one, a lifestyle one. There will be something that will trip up that finely tuned focus of what you’re doing and then the cards will all the house of cards that you built will fall over. And I say it because unfortunately I’ve seen way too many people do it. Neurotypicals as well, you know. Breakdowns and burnouts are not a neurotype dependent thing. I think there’s a tendency, more because the world is not set up for our neurotype, for us to suffer it in more and greater numbers. But that’s not to say that the wrong set of circumstances and the wrong use of energy and the wrong everything for a neurotypical person wouldn’t take them down. Like it would. We’re all humans at the end of the day. You’ve got your limits. But I do think that if you love what you do, you have a much better chance of it succeeding because the alternative is I hate what I do. Yeah. Yeah. I get up every day. I hate what I do, but you know, the money’s good. How many times have you had that conversation with people who’ve got jobs? Just like, why do you do it then? Oh, the money’s good. How’s that eating away at your soul? Because eventually it will

Hannah: just suck the last bits of joy out of your…

Stuart: Like rats nibbling away at your very core. Eventually, you will collapse inwards and disappear into a black hole of depression. And I know because I was that soldier.

Hannah: Interestingly though, so my husband’s employed by quite a big company. I won’t give it a shout out. Um, and he doesn’t hate his job, but it doesn’t bring him any joy at all. But he has the kind of thinking that he’s like, it pays the bills. It’s not difficult for him because he’s super clever and it is what it is. He works from home.

Stuart: I’ve got two mates. One of them’s now retired. I haven’t seen the other one in a little while, but I’m sure he’ll similarly retire. Um, as he worked for the HMRC, not in any capacity near any of the investigatory stuff.

Hannah: I was going to be like…

Stuart: He literally put chairs in rooms as he said, but I moved chairs around rooms. That’s all he did. And um, they were very much, oh yeah, you know, I’m going to stack it in the pension, retire early. They had a game plan. I was always like, yolo. You know, I might be dead tomorrow. I’ll make a wrong choice. I’ll turn left when I should have turned right and step in front of something that’s going very fast and big. You know, that’s how I’m going to end. I’m going out in a blaze of glory. Where did he go? I don’t know. He said he was going to go and fight the horde. I don’t know what that means.

Hannah: Oh my god.

Stuart: But yeah, so I think it does depend on your skill set as well. You can have a passion for something but you see this is the point is being in business is an overlap of a lot of different capabilities and quite a lot of the time people become employed because they don’t have the capabilities in the area like going out and talking to people. Putting together ideas for marketing. Quite often they’re lost in all of the bits that they haven’t done but they’re very passionate about the thing that they do do and so it’s quite nice to be able to point them at places and go “oh you need to learn this lesson or this is a thing, a concept, that you should get your head around” and that’s always very gratifying.

Hannah: So Stuart, though, the question is what happens when all that lovely fabulous special interesty businessy type stuff starts to steal the joy.

Stuart: Well then you outsource it. That’s always my answer.

Hannah: This is something I hate doing.

Stuart: Can I make it somebody else’s problem?

Hannah: Exactly that

Stuart:. This is where employee thinking and entrepreneurial thinking diverge and I know that I’m particularly good at things and there are other things I am particularly bad at and I can beat myself up or I can just accommodate it and get somebody in who can do the job. And why would you not? I just it baffles me when people go, “Oh no, I do this because you know, I should do it really.” No, no, you shouldn’t do it. I’m really shit at bookkeeping. I’ve tried to be really good at it. I can be really good at it, but it drives me bonkers and it’s putting receipts into a spreadsheet and reconciling them against a bank account should be being done by a robot. It’s numbers. It’s not human life. It’s just tallying up what’s already happened. Your accounts are a lagging indicator of what’s happening on the daily. And I don’t look over my shoulder. Life doesn’t come with a rear view mirror. What’s behind me, I am not interested in. It’s just a score. It’s a number. It doesn’t meet the reality of what’s going on today, what’s happening, the opportunity, the future. And therefore, I’m shit at books. But I understand that if I want to be self-employed and I want to be in a business, I need to do my books. So, the only answer to that is there is a person out there, and I’ve spoken to one because I’ve just taken on a new bookkeeper. He’s really passionate. He had a window cleaning business. Found he enjoyed doing the accounts more than he did the window cleaning. So, he went off and did a qualification. He’s now a bookkeeper. If your job loses the joy, you can walk away and get another job. But if it’s your self-employed and the thing that brings you money has stopped bringing you joy, how do you outsource the thing? And that’s where you either sell the business or you get somebody in and you do the thing that I’ve said, look, I’ve got this system. It works. It makes money. I just don’t want to do it anymore. You can have it if I can take 50% of the profit. And nine times out of 10, this is the problem when small businesses build a business to try and sell it. They try to sell an asset which requires their labor as part of it and they don’t factor that in as a wage because the person buying it is effectively buying a job.

As I often said to business owners who were trying to sell me their business. Convince me why I need to buy your job. And they say, “What?” I said, “Well, obviously I’m buying the business. I’m buying the income stream, but I don’t want to have to do whatever it is you do every day. So, how do you sell me a business when you’re not going to be within it?” And you see this light go on their eyes like, “Oh, yeah. Oh, you’re the expert in your business. Then you need to step out of your business and let it try and run for a month. If you can get your business to run for a month without you, you’ve pretty much got a self-sustaining money pump.

Hannah: Yeah, I’ve not got one of those. Do you?

Stuart: Well, that’s why you got to work on them. That’s why you got to build assets and plant seeds. The neuroinclusive workplace will grow and grow and grow as this topic just becomes, well… I mean I think the government has just announced a load of money in this sector. There’s massive new research in ADHD. There’s just tons of stuff going on in this very field and it’s not going to go away anytime soon because of the amount of late diagnosed neurodivergent women… it’s a travesty. It’s an absolute travesty that we’ve got generations, not generation, of people who are wandering around trying to fit into a system which is slowly breaking them and they wonder why there’s a massive mental health crisis. Oh dear. Don’t even get me started.

Hannah: Too late Stuart. I’m climbing. climbing the soap box with you. Move over, Stu. Give me some space on that soap box, too.

Stuart: No, we need people like you on the soap box. I need to just stand back and hold the crowd back and go listen to what she’s saying. This is important. This is just not the state of female health in the UK in 2026. Oh my god. Please, would somebody somewhere do something? The amount of medical gaslighting that goes on,

Hannah: Don’t Stuart, don’t… I hear you. I hear you. So, I guess the other side of the coin of what we’re talking about, you know, being aware of when you recognize that your job or however you’re doing that is starting to steal the joy. Then I guess the other side of that coin is learning, preempting and learning how to protect that kind of joy or that curiosity, that driving force that’s keeping you moving forward doing this kind of special interest as your business. 

Stuart: One word. Pivot.

Hannah: Well, you can pivot and and I’m the queen of pivot, you know, literally

Stuart: It’s the business equivalent of a tangent.

Hannah: Yeah. And I’m the queen of the tangents, as you know, and a pivot is a strategy I’ve used repeatedly and I’m a massive fan. But there is also a second or a, you know, an additional option is actually doing things that keep that curiosity that stop you kind of getting drawn into the boring long grasses of invoicing and all that shit. And actually keeps the business that you’re doing and your passion behind it fresh. So for example, one of the things I’ve done over the years and I’m doing it at the moment actually if I start to dwindle on anything I just learn another aspect of it. You know, when I was doing a lot of content writing, I certainly used to do a lot more… and I started to get bored for the same clients, the same topics, the same blah blah blah. Then I do a quick course or I watch a few videos or, you know, I got bored with a recent client and then they mentioned that they needed to add some bits to their website and I can build websites as you know. But actually I hadn’t used that platform before. So yeah, a day later of Hannah watching endless YouTube videos, I’ve pivoted myself back into, or no I’ve excited myself back into what I was doing. And that’s my way of protecting that interest and that curiosity and stopping me because for every pivot I’m very capable of a rage quit.

Stuart: Oo, I love a rage quit.

Hannah: I’m very capable of tearing it up and saying I fucking hate all of it and and walking out of my business. I don’t In fact, to be fair, just to reassure you, Stuart, I’ve not done that in a million years. But there was a time where rather than think like an adult, what can I do to make this more interesting again to pique my interest again. I’m just like, “fuck it. I hate it.” And then I’m grooming dogs.

Stuart: Oh, I’ve lobbed a hand grenade into a couple of ventures. Just not doing this anymore. Done. I’m done. I’m done. I’m all the way done. Tie a knot in me and send me on my way.

Hannah: But yeah, I am somebody that needs to chase the squirrels. And actually, maybe that sometimes means doing a short course. I did a counseling level two course not that long ago. I don’t even know why. I just thought, “Yeah, fuck it. I’m a bit bored.” So, I just did a  side course for no good reason other than I liked it. 

Stuart: But it gives you an insight into something. And maybe this is what I think people are afraid to do these days. Have idle curiosity. What’s all that about, you know. It has to be this grand thing of like “oh you’re moving into counseling are you now?”.  No So why are you doing it?  Well I’m just interested.  I just wanted to find out a bit more and I thought, what better way.  Do you know what I mean? It’s like there are times when I have done things in business, but somebody’s going “oh is that what you’re doing now?” No, no, no. I just got this project that came along. It seemed quite interesting. It was within my skill set.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Oh. Oh, okay.

Hannah: It was literally a deep dive rabbit hole that went a bit too far. And before I knew it, I signed up to an online counseling level 2. But actually, it came from the fact I was mentoring or I do in my spare time. I was mentoring students. And then I thought, oh, wouldn’t it be good if I had some kind of official qualification that meant that I wasn’t just an old wise old Yoda lady giving them the insides of my brain.

Stuart: Oh,

Hannah: But I told my friend, she was like, “Oh, you’d make an amazing counselor.” And I said, “I will never want to be a counselor.” No disrespect to counselors. You’re magnificent. I’ve paid a lot of your mortgages off, but that’s not what I wanted to do. But I did because my brain craves new knowledge. Even if in its menopausal state, it can’t hold on to that knowledge very long. It craves new stuff. It wants it. It feeds off knowledge.

Stuart: It’s like a bee with nectar.

Hannah: It really is. It really is. So…

Stuart: I’m the same. I’m exactly the same. If something obsesses me at the moment, I’ve got a couple of minor bubbling obsessions that I keep going back to and keep dipping my proboscis into.

Hannah: Yeah, exactly. 

Stuart: And uh I keep going, “Oh, yeah, that’s very good. Oh, yes, I’m learning more.” And this is how I was with law. I think that I’d be a really good lawyer. 

Hannah: Oh my god, you would.

Stuart: I just don’t know. My brain works in the way that immediately somebody says something and my brain’s like, “Hang on a minute. There’s several things in that sentence that I need to pick apart because on face value. And that’s why it makes me a nightmare for marketing because I read it and I’m like, well, hang on a minute, my lad. In tests, what tests? Eight out of 10. Eight out of 10. How many did you actually survey? 80% is quite high. Oh, of 46 people. Really? Oh, the whole 80% of 46 people. Great. You see, and that’s that just anything under that kind of withering gaze. But you see this keeps my interest in keeping abreast of the law. You know I find I watch lawyers discussing cases and points of cases, mostly commercial cases obviously, you know commerce being my area of interest. But that’s why I kind of went up to a level with contract law without taking a course I just read it all up and was like yeah yeah yeah and then testing myself on on the knowledge you know right and now just integrated into my I I saw it as a worthwhile additional skill to have alongside at least I can make a sniff test to most contracts. If there’s anything I don’t know I put a question mark next to do. But the point is you keep the passion alive long term by having outside interests. It’s like any relationship, you know, you can have outside relationships, don’t have outside relations.

Hannah: Yes. Yes.

Stuart: But this is why you should build a business that grows with you because in 31 years..okay, I might have been Mr. Accounting from day one. That’s all I wanted to do and have done it successfully for 31 years. Well, that would have been lucky because that would have been like smashing it out the ballpark on day one. Unfortunately, my brain wanders all over the place from engineering, fixing cars, being a lookalike, running an entertainment agency, building websites, doing print, having novelty goods manufactured in China and and imported in distribution, uh posters, I say print, websites, marketing, affiliate sales, candle making, antiques, you you know, it’s just I can’t that if I spot an opportunity, my brain just goes, is that opportunity worth your time and attention or is this a side quest? It does that now. But when I was younger, it was like, yippee, let’s go. And I couldn’t stop it if I wanted, you know? It’s like, I’m doing this now. Oh, we are. Are we? Okay. Let’s see where this goes. This is fun. Nine times out of 10, I’m as amazed by any of my own success as the people standing around going, “He did what?” It’s literally masking, but for business, it’s like, “And now I’m a candle maker.”

Hannah: Yeah. Why not?

Stuart: I’ve got to be a butcher and a baker next.

Hannah: What’s that? What’s that cartoon? Mr…

Stuart: Mr. Ben.

Hannah: Mr. Ben. Literally that. That’s what we’ve both done with businesses. Gone in the cupboard and come back. felt like I make cakes

Stuart: And some people are the shopkeeper.

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart Morrison: And they’re important and they’re brilliant and fantastic, but I think I’m much more Mr. Ben.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Me too. For sure.

Stuart: Right. Well, that’s been quite the fascinating look at and dissection of the world of self-employment and how to get into it and what passions and fuels it. Any takeaways, top tips, thoughtful moments?

Hannah: Um my first one would be that special interests can become incredible businesses because actually you can’t fake that genuine enthusiasm. And for a business to succeed, you need to have some enthusiasm behind it. When you genuinely love something that you’re doing for a business, it can become a source of energy rather than an energy zapper. And the challenge isn’t really monetizing a passion. It’s making sure that that curiosity never gets replaced by somebody else’s expectations. The moment that the kind of businessy side of it takes over and sells the sparkle of the curiosity and the interest, then you’re in trouble. Um, and you know, this is something I’ve had to learn. Not every special interest needs to become a business. Future Hannah, if you’re listening, not every special interest needs to become a bloody business. And that’s okay to accept that. And actually, my last tip would be that you need to learn to differentiate which are worth monetizing or you would benefit from that and which ones just need to stay as hobbies. It’s okay to have multiple hobbies. I have multiple hobbies alongside multiple other things.

Stuart: It’s okay to have a print making kit in your cupboard alongside a candle making kit alongside several frames and unframed prints that you’re going to sell. And I’m looking directly at them actually. This is embarrassing. Stuart, well, just get rid of this shit

Hannah: Stuart’s family now know what they’re getting for Christmas.

Stuart: Yay! Free gift. I’ve got this for you. I don’t even like any of it that’s free. It’s a gift.

Hannah: It’s a bit dusty cuoz it’s been on my shelf in my office for three years. So, Stu, what about your tips? Have you got any tips?

Stuart: Just because you love it doesn’t mean to say it’s going to be a business.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart Morrison: Let me, so, I’m going to pour some cold hard facts at you. Um, well, being in business is pragmatism, realism, and accepting the truth. Even if that truth is brought to you harshly by somebody shouting at you, you have to step away from the ego and realize that the way that value is perceived and seen is maybe not the way that you believe it should be seen. And that’s going to be all right because that’s the marketplace. The market tells you, this is what I say to my kids. My kids come running to me. Oh, dad, dad, I had a good idea. No, no, no, you’ve had an idea. The marketplace tells you how good it is. Oh, Dad, you’re such a joy crusher. And that’s what I’m going to do right now. No. Um..

Hannah: sit down, everybody.

Stuart: It’s about being pragmatic. Yes, it’s a passion, but do you have the necessary skills to not just monetize that, but to monetize it for the next however long? How long are you doing this for? That’s the other question a lot of small business owners don’t answer themselves. How long are we doing this for? What’s the end purpose? What’s the goal here? Am I doing this until I retire and then what? It just stops and goes away or do I want to build it and sell it? You know, there’s loads of questions. So, getting started and having a passion, it might seem really, really early to go, what am I doing this for? Where’s this going? But it will answer a lot of your questions. You know, if somebody says to you, oh, we could sell you this thing and you could do this thing. And you’re like, oh, do I need that? Well, actually, would this get me closer to my goal? or is this just a massive distraction? Is this a new shiny thing? And I often find that helps if I know what the outcome of the project is. So for me, the oddcast was always to get to 100 episodes.

Hannah: Yes,

Stuart: It was always to get to 21 because that was where most die before. I knew I’d get that because just yes, it was going to happen.

Hannah: Smashed in.

Stuart: But I need to get to 100 because they say people ignore you until you have 100 episodes. Okay. Right. So if they ignore us, great. That means we’ve got a hundred episodes to get really good. And that’s the same with any business. You get ignored until the point where everyone just accepts that you’re part of the furniture and starts using you.And you’ve  got to get over that patch. And that can be really difficult for passion to sustain across. It can be a hard thing. So think long and hard. Not every passion should be turned into a monetizable business. Keep learning, keep experimenting, keep lively. What you’re doing now may not be what you’re doing in five years’ time, but it might be the stepping stone to it. You know, do look out for sometimes the world comes, knocks on your door and tells you in explicit detail what’s going on. Other times it might wave at you from a car at 50 mph as it’s going past. You got to be paying attention because that might be the very thing that you should be paying attention to next. And in business, it can be very, very easy to keep your nose to the grindstone and miss some of the strategy, the longer term stuff. So, you know, don’t be blinded by your passions. And my final point, see what energizes you, what drains you, what makes you go, what makes you think, I can’t wait to get in, what makes you think, this is the part of either my job or my life or the world in which I inhabit that I love doing, and if I actually woke up every day doing this, I’d be really happy. I know somebody who moved to the wilds of Scotland and is a fantastic artist and had already started that ball rolling actually works in the House of Commons. So, he’s got this kind of nascent arts business, but he’s waiting until he ages into his pension and then he can. It’s a brilliant strategy. Fantastic. Love it. And that’s exactly it. Just because your passion for it now is great and massive. Doing it on the DL, doing it on your own without having to uh involve customers and just seeing if it sustains your interest over a let’s say six month per period of time. Is a good way of starting.

Hannah: It’s basically what it’s basically breaking your shoes in on the carpet, isn’t it? It’s when you’ve got a new pair of DMs, you don’t want to wreck their souls. Yeah. Not that the souls of DMs.

Stuart: It’s getting in your bath with your Levis on to shrink them to your What was all that about? Why didn’t we put up with that? Pre-shrink them or I’m not

Hannah: legs just went blue. That’s all that happened.

Stuart: That’s exactly it.

Hannah: True tangent story. I went to the doctor once because I didn’t put these two together. I’d bought some dark blue jeans. They weren’t Levis’s. Other brands are available. I bought some dark blue jeans, stretchy jeans, worn them, very tight stretchy jeans. Worn them a couple of days in a row. Then one morning, the hypochondriac in me, woke up and thought, “Oh fuck the blood flow to my legs is brutal. My legs are dark blue.”

Stuart: Oh no.

Hannah: So I went to the doctor and yeah, apparently um some ink is transferable. Oh my god. Hopefully you’ll cut that confession out of this episode! So Stu, amazing tips, top tips as ever and a great great episode and I think we’ve given everybody out there listening watching if you want to see our awesome faces um so much fabulous knowledge as ever. 

Stuart: Um before we finish just another quick plug reminder that if today’s conversation has made you think about how different people experience work and I’m sure it must have done then do have a look at our neuroinclusive workplace audit. on the website. Yes, the NIQ neuroinclusive workplace audit is completely free. It takes just a few minutes and it’s designed to help organizations start asking better questions rather than pretending they’ve already got all the answers and that we’re really inclusive. Actually, the link is in the notes and if you go to our website, there’s a link on the homepage. So, do follow that up and take the audit and find out how neuroinclusive your workplace is. Or at least get across all of the questions that you should be thinking about to try and make a neuroinclusive workplace if you have a business and you’re thinking about taking on staff.

Hannah: Yes, please pass it on. Sometimes the right conversation just needs to have the right person in front of it.

Stuart: Yeah. Well, that’s an absolute cornucopia of information and useful stuff that we’ve hopefully passed your way. Do have a look at the blogs. We’ve been doing those quite recently and we’ve got one coming out soon. What’s that one about?

Hannah: So, last week was about dopamine.

Stuart: It was. Yes.

Hannah: I love a bit of dopamine. We won’t go off on that one. And um the one coming up, I can’t remember.

Stuart: That’s all right. Don’t worry. There’ll be another fantastic. It’ll be amazing. Whatever it is. And I think it’s my turn. I think it’s me. And I haven’t decided what it is. And I threw that at you. Sorry about that.

Hannah: Before The next blog though,

Stuart: go on

Hannah: We have an incredible guest coming up hopefully.

Stuart: I forgot about this guest

Hannah: later this month. I don’t want to out her just in case like you know she disappears off the face of the earth or something.

Stuart: Well, she is going on holiday and she might go on holiday and get passionate about what she finds on holiday and not return.

Hannah: Make a business out of it.

Stuart: Exactly.

Hannah: Um so yeah, our first guest and she’s a good one. She is a magnificent guest.

Stuart: She is somebody who we’ve met recently and is definitely worth your attention. Um and I’m looking forward to interviewing and finding out more about her, her business and her passions to bring it back to the theme of today. But thank you very much for listening. Hannah, thank you so much for as always if you’re entertaining anybody you’re entertaining me for definite. So thank you very much for your insights and if you have liked it then please do like, share and subscribe. to the podcast. All of the buttons are here, there, wherever. 

Hannah: And I’m pointing and you’re listening, so you can’t see. So I’m benefiting from the pointing.

Stuart: So, you know, find the necessary channel and stick us in it and like us and share us and tell other people about us. And if you’ve liked what you’ve seen, then maybe leave us a comment, give us some feedback, tell us what resonated, what your thoughts and insights are. And maybe if you’ve got some top tips, please, we are learning every day and we’d love to hear from other people about what they’re doing. So with that another episode, that’s a wrap. Thank you very much and uh we’ll speak to you soon. All the very best. Bye

Hannah: bye.

Ep36 – Why Some Rooms Make Neurodivergent Brains Scream

Walk into a networking event and feel your nervous system hit the alarm before you’ve said a word? You’re not broken, the room is badly designed.

This week we break down why “just show up and mingle” is agony for ND brains: the unwritten social rules nobody explains, the masking that starts before you’re even through the door, and the exhausting calculation of tracking what everyone thinks of you. We name the real cost, event tax, energy overdrafts, and call out why “be more resilient” is terrible advice.

Then we get practical. Who’s in the room changes everything: accepted vs. evaluated, belonging vs. tolerated. We talk escape planning, why no chairs can genuinely ruin your night, why background music sabotages conversations, and we share our “yes, and…” trick for finding your people fast.

If you’ve ever left an event drained and wondering what’s wrong with you, this episode is your answer, and your survival kit.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:34 – Topic of the Week – Why Some Rooms Make ND Brains Scream
00:00:59 – Topic introduction – Why do some spaces feel hostile and unwelcoming?
00:02:00 – Why are networking rooms so challenging? A room of uncertainty!
00:03:55 – The UNWRITTEN (social) RULES!
00:05:41 – Managing the cognitive load overthinking what people think of you
00:06:18 – The masking starts before you even get in the room, like Pulp Fiction
00:09:03 – How to find the nicest, spiciest people in the room…
00:11:22 – Event tax, energy overdrafts – just be more resilient!
00:13:36 – Who is in the room makes a difference – are you a needy networker?
00:14:40 – Being accepted vs feel evaluated. Who’s in the room matters!
00:17:39 – Belonging vs “fitting in” vs being tolerated…
00:20:30 – The weight of perception and being perceived
00:22:00 – The nightmare of overlapping friend’s groups
00:25:31 – Seeking safety and Hannah’s escape planning
00:27:32 – When you HAVE to do the thing you don’t want to do. Some tips.
00:29:51 – Our other podcasts on Business Networking
00:30:12 – The safety of predictability & other networking tips
00:33:21 – Making spaces better, safer and predictable, you know; INCLUSIVE!
00:35:03 – Hannah’s story about a chair – RAGE INDUCING!
00:38:21 – The dangers of music in the room…
00:40:07 – When you find the people you click with
00:41:33 – The improv principle of “Yes, and…”
00:44:01 – NDs dance, NTs duel – discuss
00:45:00 – Hannah’s takeaways and insights
00:47:53 – Stu’s top tips and thoughts
00:53:37 – Thank you and goodbye
00:55:00 – August’s theme – Special Interests and Hyperfocus
00:56:24 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

https://businessoddcast.com/the-oddcast-manifesto – Link to the Neuroinclusive Manifesto, Lets build a better, more inclusive society.

https://businessoddcast.com/niq-free-audit target – A Neuroinclusive Workplace self-audit test for employers, teams, and the self-employed. Built on the social model of disability and the idea that barriers are designed in environments, not people.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

Stuart: Hello and welcome to another business oddcast. Another one of our episodes tackling all things business oddcasty. Here I am Stuart Morrison. I am one of your hosts, one of your other hosts is Hannah Logan.

Hannah: Hello. Hello. Hello.

Stuart: Hello Hannah. How are we doing this week? And what is the topic of the week?

Hannah: Pretty fabulous this week. Or I’m feeling pretty fabulous. It’s all good. Um the topic of this week is… god there’ll be some listeners watchers relating to this. ‘Why some rooms make neurodivergent brains scream?’

Stuart: I absolutely hear this. There are some places where I have to take a deep breath before I go to Why don’t you give us the introduction and let’s get into it.

Hannah: Yeah. Uh, so like you just said really, you know. Have you ever, we’ve all done it I’m sure, walked into a room or a space or workplace, networking event, etc, and instantly had that feeling that you just don’t want to be there or you need to leave. Maybe it’s a networking event, a coffee shop, any kind of shop, but your whole body is just like “nope, no, I’m not staying here”. But you’re not quite sure why, really.

So, in last week’s blog, we explored how our physical and digital environments drain our energy and productivity. And so, this week, we’re talking about something slightly different really. Why two completely identical rooms can feel completely different simply because of the people in them, the expectations that room carries, and whether our nervous system decides that it’s safe to relax or not.

Stuart: Yeah. Very interesting. And For business owners, you’re going to be going to a lot of places from customers and suppliers to networking rooms. So, it is really important that you understand what’s going on. Maybe have some control over the shift in the energy or the feeling or the mood. Um, so we’re going to deep dive. We’re going to explore and we’re going to have a look at all of that. The setup for all of this.

Hannah: Well, let’s start with networking, Stu, because you just said networking and I think for a lot of people, you know I can speak only from a neurodivergent people point of view. Networking isn’t just about meeting people is it? So that’s why in my mind that’s why it can feel so weird because it’s a room of uncertainty. There’s unwritten rules going on there. There’s those kinds of social expectations. So it’s no wonder to me that neurodivergent people can find it so exhausting. When I go networking and I know a lot of people will be nodding along to this I’m sure, when I go networking there’s like a narration in my brain. You know I’m trying to read the sort of expectations of the room. I’m also trying to decide which version of Hannah is rocking up to this event.

Stuart: Like corporate Hannah smashing through the glass ceiling. Those six figure months. No, I never said that. I take it back.

Hannah: Um, but it, you know, we don’t know what the crowd’s going to be like. Some networking events are a bit more pushy, a bit more salesy. That’s not my vibe at all. Other networking events are just hanging out, picking the people you want to chat to and personally I love that. I’d much rather have a couple of decent conversations than a kind of small talk on steroids around the room, which is utterly brutal. Also, you know, we don’t always know the unwritten rules. I never know the unwritten rules of any event to be fair. So, if I don’t know them,  if no one’s explained them to me, then how do I know what I’m meant to do when I get there?

Stuart: Exactly. Exactly. If they think that one of the biggest problems is the unwritten rules, then accept what’s accepted here. If you do not have that direct experience, you don’t intuit it or read it, or it’s not a part of your internal plotting of what you know the shape of the evening was going to be then if you step outside the guidelines how do you know.

Hannah: You just don’t. That’s the point you make sometimes because people have a face on them like “what?”. And I’ve experienced that quite a lot. I’ll occasionally throw in one of my incredibly hilarious jokes and then as it’s fallen out of my mouth I’m like “I didn’t read this little corner of the room very well and now I’m being looked at like I’m a lunatic”.

Um so you know, you start because all events are different, you know some of them have common threads but generally all events are different. And actually the key really in my mind is to end up working out which events work well for you and which don’t but I won’t jump ahead because I think we’re touching on that a bit later.

Stuart: A lot of this is about in-groups and outgroups, isn’t it? It’s the cool kids

Hannah: very much. Yeah.

Stuart: And you know, if anybody is in my orbit, you’re very welcome. Always welcome.

Hannah: I think also, you know, the cognitive load of that kind of management of impression, you know, overthinking what people think of you. I spend a lot, not so much nowadays, but I certainly did when I’ve been regularly networking for maybe a couple of years, maybe three years. When I first went, I was really micromanaging what I was going to wear. And now I’m like, just put some clothes on, Hannah, and turn up and try not to swear in front of anybody. It seems to work quite well. You can tell that my effort levels have reduced which actually removes a lot of pressure. So, it’s fabulous.

Stuart: It works on different levels. I mean, before you even get in the room, you’re putting on the character. There’s that scene in Pulp Fiction, if anyone ever wants to think about how it feels like for a neurode divergent just before you go into a networking meeting. That scene in Pulp Fiction, if you’ve seen it, where you’ve got the two, uh, Guns for Hire, um, Samuel L. Jackson and and John Travolta’s characters, and they go around to the back of the car and they’re discussing, you know, what’s going to happen in the room and then they say, “Let’s get into character.” And it’s exactly that. You’re in your head, you’re like, “Oh, what if this conversation happens? What if that happens? What if this person’s there? What if that thing, you know, unexpectedly occurs. How are you going to deal with all these things? And you rehearse all this in your head and then you literally put your game face on and step through the door. I use pump it up music in the car. I do like a little bit of high high energy. I believe that I should enter every single room in a cloud of smoke and rock music or or some kind of high energy uh with everybody whooping and cheering because that’s what I hear in my head.

Hannah: Like stars in their eyes but cooler!

Stuart: Yeah. I’ve weaponized my masking to a point where I am self- deluded.

Hannah: You’ve got like a show reel that goes ahead of you.

Stuart: Oh, well, you’ve seen me walk into a room. It’s like literally I’m high-fiving people. They’re like, “Who is this guy? The party started. You can begin.” You’ve heard that song by Pink, you know, get the party started. Yeah, that’s it. Right. Where do I start? How do I find the highest, most influential person in this room and make them laugh outrageously and make everyone feel very comfortable with the idiot that just walked in? That’s that’s my entire game plan right there, folks.

Hannah: Oh my god.

Stuart: And then find a mic drop moment to leave or go to the toilets and never come back. Either or.

Hannah: Climb out the window.

Stuart: Yeah. Oh, you don’t want to joke about that. I’ve walked out through a pub’s um kitchen before now.

Hannah: I’ve had dates like that, Stu, where you just disappear out the window. That’s how bad my ability is to say no. That I’d rather just ghost them halfway through the meal.

Stuart: Well, that’s going to put a whole new spin on when we go for a meal or a meeting and a chat and you say, “I’m just going to nip to the loo. Will she be coming back? Is this the one?”

Hannah: I’d never do that to you, Stuart.

Stuart Morrison: But, but there is a whole lot of monitoring that goes on. It’s not just you’re going in and you’ve got, you know, your standard nerves that most people, I believe, suffer from. Uh, walking into a room full of strangers. Me, I’m like, Let’s see who plays. I am just completely different. There is a certain amount of self-editing. There is a certain amount of watching what you say, judging the mood of the room, trying a few things. I usually go for somebody who’s wearing something loud and outrageous as well. You know, there’s that to compare with or somebody who might have colored hair. That’s an easy way in. Nobody dyes their hair who’s dull.

Hannah: That is such a good tip. I always do that. I look for colored hair.

Stuart: Colored hair or a bright scarf, or something which is like I always think of it like this and once you spot it you can’t not spot it. It’s like early buds just poking through the snow like the snow drops are just coming through just like “oh hello I don’t want to make too much of a noise”, and all you’ve got to do is go over and prompt them. And before you know it you’re in a full- blown hilarious conversation full of japes and side tangents. It’s fantastic. That’s how we met.

Hannah: Totally

Stuart: I was like, “There’s my tribe right there.”

Hannah: The lady in the leopard jumpsuit.

Stuart: It’s fantastic. What’s not to like about that? She was brilliant. Magnificent. Walked in. Looked around the room.

Hannah: Prowled in actually, Stuart. I prowled in like a leopard.

Stuart: Yes, you did. It was the guttural roaring that gave my attention the cue it needed to look.

Hannah: Everyone else hiding behind the chairs and tables.

Stuart: Oh my god. About to be mauled. So, there’s a lot of self monitoring. There’s a lot of putting on your best mask, being the best mask version of yourself that you can be. And of course, that changes with age and energy and tiredness and hunger and stress and pressure and a million other things which are draining your energy that day. But no, you walk in and you try and slap on the mask and mask as hard as you can to and and a lot of the time it’s about feeling safe. You feel like, “oh well, I won’t show him the weirdest stuff because, you know, that has not worked as a strategy for me in the past, and I’m sure it won’t work for me as a strategy in the future, but so I need to put a lid on it”. Which I get over straight away with the loud suits. It’s like, yeah, you’re not going to have a normal conversation, so don’t.

Hannah: That’s your filter right there.

Stuart: You see, this is where event tax rears its ugly head. The idea that an hour of heavy masking is going to take you maybe two, three days. It depends on what your base load of burnout is. You know, if you’re running a high tab, a deficit, an energy deficit, your overdraft is very close to the edge and the limit of what your body is working with. Um, it’s no joke that an hour of heavy masking might be two, three days of recovery. Uh, I’ve been there and nowadays I still need recovery. Like when we do one of our big shows, one of our big networking events at Signal, I won’t work in the afternoon. I just can’t. There’s lots of energy there. I need to go and not focus on other people’s things. My brain needs to just go and rest. And if I don’t, if I am forced into that situation, then my weekend starts. It’s the domino effect. You know you can ignore it the first time, but then the second time and the third time, and then as you age and as your energy changes and as health conditions vary, so does your ability to bounce back from it. So, it becomes even harder to work your way out of that kind of almost cash flow spiral of energy that you’re not getting the cash in quick enough, so therefore your energy is not growing quick enough. And you know, the example is very apparent. But yeah, I would say avoid the event tax because if you don’t get it right, it it takes brown out into burnout and then where chronic depression, illnesses, you know, self-loathing, all of that kind of good stuff for that we all know about because you’ve just tried to, you know, just be a bit more resilient. Oh god, if I hear that word more, you should. This is to help make you more resilient. Yeah. No. just take your resilience and shove it

Hannah: shove it right. Yes. We won’t go there.

Stuart: But it can also make a difference what you’re going into that you know if that room is a known room if you’re full of your favorite people then that’s going to be different isn’t it?

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Like you said the people in that room often it isn’t actually the environment itself that makes us fundamentally feel safe or unsafe but more so the people inside it. So that’s why I touched on it earlier a bit. But that’s why I now really carefully select the events that I go to. At one point I was just networking like I’d turn up to any old event. I was like a needy networker. Um and quite quickly I’d realized the ones that just made me feel like that terrible dream where you turn up to school and suddenly you’re naked and everyone’s like you know that horrible anxiety situation. By the way, just to note I’ve never turned up to a networking event naked. No one needs to see that.

Stuart: Not yet. Not yet. There’s always…

Hannah: Exactly that. Never say never life goals right there. That’s on the bucket list. But it’s that difference, isn’t it, between feeling accepted versus feeling evaluated. You know, that feeling of sort of being under that microscope can feel completely overwhelming. And the reality is that unless we have turned up naked to a networking event, we are not under a microscope. But some places, some people, you will feel more interrogated. You know the events. We’ve all been there. Someone’s like, “What do you do? What do you earn?” So that’s why I go to the same events because I trust them. They’re familiar. I know what to expect. There’s one event I go to I haven’t been to for a little while, but they change the venue every time. Don’t do that. Don’t do that.

Stuart: I like it when it’s the same bloody venue.

Hannah: That familiarity, you know, the people that are going to be there. When I was less practiced in networking, I would actually message people on LinkedIn that I knew and say, “Are you going to this event and once I’d got a couple of people that I knew were going there that I trusted and liked, then I was safe to go. In my brain, I was like, “Okay, whatever happens, I can check out those people and it’ll be alright. I’ll feel okay.”

Stuart: Like a gig partner.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely.

Stuart: Event buddy.

Hannah: Like a wingman.

Stuart: Yeah. Absolutely. At least you’ve got one person there that A  gets you and B will talk to you. And that, you know, unlike dating. Yeah, you go on a date. I’ve just brought my mate Steve. Why? I needed to sort of have somebody to laugh at my jokes and talk to me in case you didn’t.

Hannah: I went out with my husband and it actually wasn’t recent. It was Valentine’s Day. We went on our annual dinner together and we’ve been together 23 years and I was like, “Wow, this is awkward. It feels a bit like an interview, doesn’t it?” And he was like, “Yeah, Hannah, like we’ve been together for, you know, almost half our life. It’s probably all right. But it is, you know, sorry, tangent time, but I think there are people at events, if you know them, even better. But there are also, like Stuart was saying, with colored hair people and all of those things, there are people that we know integrally will put us at ease. They are more often than not our people. We hunt them out. You know, I always hunt out and go to look for my people.

Stuart: She stalks them in her leopard skin.

Hannah: I literally prowl them. I climb up to the highest point in the room. No, I don’t do that. I couldn’t do that. Um, and also, you know, the vibe in the room matters. If it’s too hustly for me, if there’s too many people talking about, you know, I keep going on. I think I’ve got a bit of a chip on my shoulder about 10 figure salaries. That’s like six figure salaries. Can imagine 10. Can you imagine the level of idiot that preaches to you about 10 figure salaries? I need to rein it in. I’m so enraged around this at the moment. I really am. It’s bizarre. Anyway, we need to get Hannah away from that trigger point because I feel like I might have a little meltdown. Um, so it’s belonging versus fitting in.

Stuart: That’s a big one. That really is. And I don’t expect, and here’s a cultural throwback that only a small portion of the audience will get, but I don’t think that all networking rooms are going to be like Cheers, you know, where everybody knows your name. But It really is nice when they do, you know, where you’re accepted, where there’s a general warmth towards you. It’s one of the reasons why I stick with the few networking events that I stick with because I don’t feel like I’m tolerated.

Hannah: But I know, I’ve got to a point where if they don’t get me I walk out the room feeling a little bit ‘less than’.

Stuart: Well, I won’t. It’s just like you missed out on a great opportunity to talk to somebody you’ve never gonna ever going to speak to again. You know, you will literally have the most interesting conversation all week. I guarantee that. One way or another. 100%.

Hannah: The last event we went to together, there was this young guy that was, I won’t out him, he was doing a great job, but he was quite early on in his business venture. Um, and you gave him about 5-10 minutes of the best advice. And he actually

I followed up with him on an email just to see how he was doing, you know, on LinkedIn and he was um like, “Oh my goodness, Stuart gave you the best advice. You like put him in contact with people and Yeah. like an utter game changer.”

Stuart: Oh, we’ve been in touch since.

Hannah: Yeah?

Stuart: Yeah. And I sent him a really long email which I said to him at the end of it  unless you tell me not to, I’m going to publish this as a blog post. Which went on my own personal website.

Hannah: Nice. He was a nice guy.

Stuart: He was, he is. He’s a great example of somebody who I know I have every faith will do something different, interesting, and worthwhile. Yeah, good guy. Ben, if you’re listening,

Hannah: Shout out to Ben.

Stuart: But you know that feeling where if you go somewhere, you don’t feel like you’re having to mask as hard. You can be yourself. You can drop your guard almost. Like if the mask does slip, it’s not going to be a disaster because, you know, they know who you are. They know you’re good at your core and that makes a difference. I think absolutely game changer when when you feel comfortable because you’re more likely to have more comfortable conversation where you’re going to be less likely to feel like “oh I’ve got to do the corporate thing” which by the way I issued years ago if you come and have a conversation with me and start talking about annualized returns then pardon me for yawning but yeah that going to these places can be hard and relaxing in them even harder. Um, but then you add in a layer of variation of traits that can be present for any reason like the perception thing.

We haven’t touched on this really and it’s a very esoteric thing. I’ve spoken to my daughter who has it definitely and you see it come up occasionally. But the idea of being perceived, the weight of being perceived by way too many people can feel overwhelming. The idea that everything you’re doing is being judged and the narrative is whispering in your ear like, “Oh, are they looking at me as I pull this and I do this and and and it’s a really hard one to explain because it’s not really an emotional space. It’s more an existential space like being in the back rooms, you know, it’s like, “Oh god, everybody’s looking. It’s all looking at me.” And you just feel very aware of your own self. And that can be really tiring. And it’s hard to explain to someone. It’s one of the reasons why quite a lot of the times when I’m doing some work. I cannot have somebody watching me.

I’d make a terrible teacher. So, all face the other way. You’ve all got to face the other way and then we’ll be fine. Uh, but that can take its toll, you know, because you kind of get all up in your head and you start, you know, it’s almost like you’re reading the metadata for the event in your own head and the reviews are not good. So, this is one that I really struggle with and it stresses me out is overlapping friends groups.

Hannah: Oh

Stuart: So you go somewhere and you run into somebody you’re not expecting to. Fine, you can cope with that. But then you run into somebody else who you know through a completely different set of, you know, events, groups, and all the rest of it. It’s not so bad when it’s a business room because you know you’re there for that reason. But let’s say you go to the pub and there’s three different sets of friends. groups which I’ve had at an event and it was like I don’t know who to prioritize. I don’t know who and then the event concludes with people overlapping friends groups. Oh, you know Dave meets Steve and you’re like you two are never going to get on.

Hannah: You’re like step away Dave and Steve.

Stuart: Yeah. It’s like the guy I am with Dave. I’ve now got to try and be that guy. Alright Dave, how are you doing? This is all right. Steve looked at you like why have you put on a strange voice?

Hannah: Why did you go gangster?

Stuart: Yeah, but I kind of pick up the mannerisms of the talking habits of who I’m with. So, it can be, you know, especially if they’re really characterful. It’s like my brain just can’t stop itself. It’s like, why are you suddenly northern? I don’t know, Dave. I don’t know. It’s Steve over here. He’s got the accent. Blame him. It’s infectious. Don’t sit next to Dave.

Hannah: Oh my god.

Stuart: That’s why I do voices all the time. Like all the time. My kettle’s got a voice. My microwave’s got a voice. You know, and the voices change. So I have an offended apple the other day. It was just looking at me a bit judgy, like, “Oh, so you’ve not eaten me.” I’m a complete food waste. Just Oh god, the fruit’s…put him away. Put him away. The suits. The fruit’s talking to him. Definite candidate for…

Hannah: Time for an intervention.

Stuart: Strapping down and putting in a room for his own good. But yeah, I mean, that’s the difference, isn’t it? You can explore that and have fun with people that you are relaxed and comfortable with and they’re not going to look at you like talking apples. What’s he like? You know, it is a bit much at the first event that you go to. But I’m a bit like, you know, I’m either going to break you or you’re going to come over to team Stu. I don’t care now. I’ve got to an age where I’m like, I’m done. I’m just merely entertaining myself until I die.

Hannah: I love what you said. about the overlapping friend groups because I’m certainly not alone in this at all. Hopefully, please tell me. No, there’s definitely other people out there doing this. So, in my real life, I am a lot of different people. So, I’m like the chair of the parish council. We’ve done this before. Sorry, anybody that’s like, “Yeah, yeah, you told us already.” So, normal me swears probably a little too much and is fun and and generally quite hilarious, but like parish councillor me has to be a filtered version of that that makes me more socially acceptable when talking about really boring shit. Um, and then you know we have the mum me which obviously tries to be a tiny bit serious as well occasionally. And then so yeah, so many I really struggled when I was a teenager I went through phases. I was a goth and then I was a hippie chicky kind of girl and then I had different friend groups for all of that. So you you know I’d bump into somebody when I had bells around my ankles and they’d be like what the fuck Hannah you’ve usually got like black eyes liner on. Right. Well, I suppose that takes us safely on to look at what I’ve done there.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Safely on to safety.

Stuart: Safely on safety

Hannah: It isn’t always logical. So, we’re always making assumptions and assessments based on our previous experiences, right? So, you know, the memories we’ve had at other events and the sort of associations we have with certain people and events and stuff. So, if we’ve been to a place where we’ve felt really included and comfortable, then we’re expecting that again. Whereas, if we’ve had a bad experience somewhere, we’re probably preempting that even though it’s very unlikely it’s going to happen again. But our nervous system is constantly assessing whether we’re safe or not. So, I like to play out different scenarios in my brain, like a kind of rehearsal before I go to an event because then I feel like I’ve kind of prepped myself, like given myself a little team talk. Um, and I always, Stuart and I have talked about this before, I always have a plan, an escape plan. So, my escape plan is, and we did that last time we went to an event together, I wasn’t feeling great. Actually, it was a great event in the end. And Stuart, you said to me, if you need to leave at any point, we leave. Just, you know, give me a sign, we leave. No questions, no judgment, no shame. And that was all I needed to be like” Yeah, let’s go and do this because I felt safe knowing that there was a kind of plan”. So that’s why if we’re going to the same events with the same people, you know, the same place, same format, then that equals safety to us. Whereas if it’s a whole new experience, new people, new event, new venue, then that automatically without even getting there, it signals danger to us because it’s so unknown. And um yeah, a lot of us find that terrifying. If I’m honest.

Stuart: Is there anything that you do that helps make things feel safe? Coz sometimes you have to go ahead and do the thing even though I mean I’ll give an example. I often present at events and it’s literally like another day in the office. But recently I had an event and just the two hours before it I was dreading it and I was like why? It’s full of people. You know it’s an easy crowd. It’s all the stuff you know how to talk about even if all the technology goes down. Why? And I couldn’t put my finger on it. And I think it was just a lack of energy. That and other various bits and pieces just dragging my mood down. That safety feeling can sometimes be um sort of misleading or it’s not necessarily the truth. So sometimes it’s worth pushing against that resistance, but not if you genuinely feel like, “No, this is going to be nothing but pain and heartache and it’s a voluntary basis.” Do yourself a favor. Don’t drain your energy for no reason.

Hannah: No, absolutely. Protect that energy and like you said, there are events, there are things we have to turn up to. Not just work, you know, if we have to go to something a family thing that we can’t get out of, can’t fein an injury, then sorry, that’s really awful. Um then yeah what I do which helps is firstly I always give myself a little talk and I remind myself that there’s been multiple situations like this where I’ve really freaked out. Then when I’ve got there it’s gone amazingly. I felt great and I’ve reminded myself of those moments to say you know don’t forget this situation. You were really freaking out for a couple of days and it went swimmingly. I also like to do quite a lot of which is quite labor intensive but quite a lot of research. You know, if it’s a new event, I need to look at a map. Where is it? How long will it take me to get there? Where I’m going to park? It sounds a bit micromanagy and it and it is really, but it it makes me feel like I’ve already planned out as much as I can. I’ve taken back some control as much as I can on the bits that I have some kind of control over, if that makes sense.

Stuart: So, yes, you might want to look at our other um podcasts. We’ll put a link to them which talk about networking. They’ve been very popular. Um, and when we talk about this stuff, we do get quite a lot of feedback. So, if there’s anything that you’ve been thinking about networking and you want a game plan, then our resources should help.

Hannah: Well, that leads us on really nicely to point six, really, doesn’t it? That kind of safety of predictability.

Stuart: Again, if you’re going to events regularly, you know what you’re going to face. But things like a changing roster of people and a changing venue, oh, come on. You’re making it hard for me. You’re making it like there needs to really be a reason for me to go along. Otherwise, it’s going to be like, “Oh, I’m really sorry. I’m very booked up on that day.” Just Yeah. I need some predictability. Do you need predictability?

Hannah: Oh gosh, I need so much predictability. I literally And it’s got worse with I don’t know if worse is the right word. I need it even more as I’ve gotten older. I think I’m much happier when I know what to expect and you know and my kids are the same

Stuart: That safety of predictability in everything though, that’s why you’ve got safe foods, that’s why you’ve got safe programs, that’s why you’ve got your safe playlist. You know that these are soothing elements in your life, little landmarks that you put in place to allow you to feel like I’m regulated. I’m cool, I’m calm. So you know the other thing is the other side of the networking event don’t put something hectic in. Don’t back to back a hectic day with a networking event. You unless you really fancy it obviously, but plan for a recovery. Definitely.

Hannah: You taught me that and it’s been a complete game changer. I used to quite like the buzz of back to back networking and you’d come out the other side like you’ve been to some kind of, you know, weekend music festival or something like your ears don’t work. anymore and you want to cry a lot and I’d be like, “Yeah,” you know, and then I’d have to spend two days in a darkened room crying at adverts just like, “Oh, I think I broke myself with too much small talk.”

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Yeah. Don’t do that ever again.

Stuart: No, it’s all about the safety, the psychological safety, the energy safety, the safety of unexpected outcomes. Again, if you’re feeling a little bit weirded out about an event, email the event coordinator. or the person who’s running the event, they will happily send you an agenda and tell you what’s going on and what to expect. I’ve never found a networking room that hasn’t been at least welcoming of some inquiry about it. It might be a different matter when you get there, you know, especially when everybody doesn’t look like you or everybody doesn’t act like you or everybody has what you perceive to be better, bigger, more flashy businesses and lives. Um, but it’s mostly just window dressing and bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. That’s my entire life. Window dressing and bullshit. Tick tick.

Hannah: That’s a mission statement right there, isn’t it, Stuart?

Stuart: I’ve got a degree in bullshit and window dressing.

Hannah: Yeah, we’ve talked about the importance of safe spaces, but actually as business owners, uh leaders, colleagues, friends, people running events, there are things we can do to make those spaces better, safer for people. It’s all about inclusivity really, isn’t it? Amongst other things.

Stuart: Well, that’s the inclusive piece that you’ve got to work on. It’s no good going out into the world and going, “Oh, I only want inclusivity for the people who look like me.” Because that isn’t inclusivity. That’s exclusivity. It’s exactly the problem we’re trying to fix. It’s like if we make it inclusive It has to be inclusive for everybody or at least everybody has to feel like they are welcome.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And I think that’s the key for me is the key spot that you don’t hone it for one type of person and then exclude it to everybody else.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I’d be lying if I didn’t say that I have been to neurodivergent events which are just for us spicy magnificent folk and they are my safe place because they’ve got like comfy chairs and everyone’s got purple hair and it’s just no. Sorry, that wasn’t actually real. That was a giant generalization. I don’t even have purple hair. Um, but you know what I mean. They’ve been designed by somebody that totally gets that and the sole aim of that is to go out of their way to make that space um easier for the people coming to that event. But of course, most networking events or a lot of events in general need to be for everybody. As you know, I struggle to stand up for ages. Um, I can’t go to an event that doesn’t have some ability for me to sit or some kind of facility, not ability, for me to sit down at some point. Um and I went to a networking event ages ago and there were no chairs anywhere. So I immediately went up to the bar because it was at a hotel and just said, “Are there any chairs?” And um the runner of the event, not runner, the host of the event came over and said, you know, Is there a problem? And I said, I just need a chair. And she said, no, no, no. We don’t. We don’t have chairs. And we encourage people to keep walking, keep moving around, and keep networking. And I said, I’m physically disabled. I need one. No, no, no. We like people to stand. And…

Stuart: At that point, the conversation changes to, “Let’s get you a chair.” Surely the conversation changes to, “Why are you lying on the floor, lady? Why is Hannah Why is Hannah’s throat punched by a random stranger in a hotel in Farnborough?“

Hannah: No, I didn’t do that. I quickly add, but actually funnily enough.

Stuart: How did that end? How did it end?

Hannah: So, in the end, I took it into my own hands, which unfortunately is often, well, not unfortunately, but it would have been great if they’ just did it right. But in the end, I said, “You know what? Actually, this isn’t working, is it?” So, I went to the bar. Well, I stopped talking to the host. I went back to the bar and said, “This is a hotel. Where would I get a stool? A bar stool? Oh, they’re all out the back. Could you get me one?” Yes, of course. And in fact, immediately, a lovely lady that we both know and love as well a girl who does have purple hair and also has issues with standing for too long came straight over to me. I got her a chair as well coz I knew she was there and she came straight over and said thank you cuz she’d been leaning on a wall for the last hour and I just thought and this sorry I’m aware I’ve gone into a bit of a tandem…

Stuart: No, it’s important. No, it is important to recognize this stuff.

Hannah: I’ve never been back to that event and actually the runners of the event were great or the hosts are great. It’s a great event. Can I say great any more times? And I felt irritated because it’s not unusual. My disability is not unusual. A lot of people will have back problems, can’t stand too long or circulation problems. That means..

Stuart: Wait a minute. There doesn’t need to be an excuse. The conversation is, “Do you have a chair, please? I have a need to sit down. I’ll find you one if I can find you one. Let me go away and make some inquiries.” Now you need to go through a disability assessment to assess whether or not you need a chair. That’s walk on this line, madam, without a stick.

Whether it’s whether I extended myself too much at the weekend playing sports and have ripped a tendon or whatever to an invisible disability, maybe um you’ve got a circulation issue and you need like you say, you can’t stand for long. Um I’m sorry. You don’t get to judge that. You don’t get to judge how your disability impacts me. Um just go and get me a fucking chair.

Hannah: Get me a chair or I’m going to find myself a chair and hit you with it. No, I won’t. I won’t.

Stuart: Get me with a chair or you’ll be in one with wheels.

Hannah: If I ever get arrested, it will be because somebody is or they’ll come and find this episode and say she was threatening violence from a younger age. I mean, it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because here’s another example of an event I went to. Again, another really good event. Um, there was a woman, a very brilliant singer, a woman in the background singing the whole of the networking part of the event. And it was loud and it was brilliant. She was brilliant. I couldn’t hear anything that anybody else said in the room. It wasn’t so much the volume of her, but my ADHD brain was just singing along to the brilliant woman and people were talking to me. Little, in fact, I probably wasn’t missing an awful lot. A lot of small talk and I couldn’t hear anybody. And then I have to get embarrassed because I’m having to try and lip read. So I look like I’m going to go in for a kiss because I get really close to their face. It’s a bit creepy. You can see them thinking, “Oh my god, I’ve pulled already.” But they look fearful. Not they’re like, “Oh no.” Yeah. No.

Um sorry. So again, that’s another example really of the things that we can do if you’re hosting an event to make sure that actually you do consider. There was another lady at that event with the singer. Another woman came over to me. I do attract people. They see once they watch me advocate for myself. They come over and join my tribe. It’s magnificent.

Stuart: Very very intoxicating to see somebody stand up for their own rights.

Hannah: It’s utterly beautiful. And this woman came over and she actually had an issue with her hearing. One one she was deaf in one ear and she said, “Thank you for saying that.” Coz in fact, they turned the woman’s sound system down a bit and then and then we could all hear each other and do the best of both worlds. But yeah, it and it takes somebody. I wasn’t an idiot and I wasn’t rude, but it does unfortunately take people to make a stand and just say actually that you know, have you considered that there will be people in this room that can’t can’t cope with that.

Stuart: But when you find the people that you click with when you find your tribe, your clan, those people that make you feel energized and excited to go to those events or see those people at that event. That’s the game changer. And what you’ve got to realize is business represents people from all over the political, cultural, social, and economic spectrum. And you aren’t going to vibe with the vast majority of them. You’re just not. You know, they’ve got different life experiences, different expectations, different goals. But the ones that you do, they’re going to be the ones that are the game changers because they will be thinking about you in positive terms. They’ll be looking out for you. Um they’ll be having conversations with you that you are fully invested in and you’re like, “Yes.” And Those are the projects and those are the people and the conduits to the projects with the people that when you are in a psychological and physical and emotional safe space with a bunch of people wonderful things can happen. You will amaze yourself at your ability to adapt, improvise, overcome, share, develop. I said this to you the other day in a chat and the more I think about it, the more it rings true for me. And this isn’t this isn’t a hard and fast thing, but it’s something that I’ve observed in improvisation. There’s a principle, a guiding principle that’s “Yes, and”. So if somebody says something on stage, you don’t shut it down. You go with it. You know, somebody walks on stage and goes, “What’s this elephant doing there?” You go, “There is no elephant, you idiot. I can’t see an elephant.” You go, “Well, I’m really sorry, but you know, I didn’t have a return label. Apparently, it’s going to ship.” You know, you’re in the moment. You respond and add to it. And I’ve noticed that people who I I have no understanding of everybody’s diagnosis, but people who seemed to exhibit certain traits because you’re there may be gaydar for gay people, but there is definitely a spectrum for the neurodivergence and and I have spectrum on a few people pinging pinging that I know. Um but you will vibe with them and you will feel comfortable having that conversation and they get you or are willing to allow you to have your oddities. And I I and I think that that is the game changer of finding your tribe and just finding the people that you vibe with the most and coming together and going how do we work together to make it sensible for all of us and you might you might be able to work some out you might not but that’s where the interesting thing like the oddcast you know I vibed with you we had a chat if this had not panned out then it wouldn’t have panned out but you know it did

Hannah: here we are

Stuart: here we are 35 episodes in so yeah I would I would definitely say that whether you find your people online or whether you find people uh in actual real physical rooms when you meet the people that elevate you and lift you that’s the people to cultivate and stop going to the other ones out of a sense of obligation because you need to cut that out of your life and the people who expect that in your life need to go as well. So, it’s incredible that the people who are on the spectrum are more likely to vibe with you in that improv way with a yes and. Whereas, I found that people I don’t vibe with, they’re much more likely to challenge you and shut you down and contradict you and talk over you and That for me is the red rope. And the way I think of it is the neurode divergent likes to dance and the neurotypicals like to duel.

They like to have a fairly combative conversation. And I know immediately when I’m in one of those in a networking room and nowadays I just withdraw from the conversation gracefully and with humor usually. But I realized that we’re not going to get on. So why do you know it’s like being on a date and you don’t get on. So, end the date early. Nobody says there has to be a time limit on it. Just agree as two humans. Did this work? No. Did you feel Yeah, let’s go. Let’s be adults. Or just don’t tell them about it. Just leave.

Hannah: Ghost them out the window.

Stuart: Padded shoulders. They’re looking at you. Why did she get the big hair padded shoulders and the dress when we know she’s leaving through the toilet window?

Hannah: Soft landing.

Stuart: And that’s it. I think we’ve covered the topic. We’ve gone through it. We’ve had a look at all of the various aspects of why the room might not feel safe. Um Hannah, maybe you’d like to share your takeaways.

Hannah: Yeah, some takeaways. So, I guess a reminder first off that feeling safe is about a lot more than just the physical environment because our nervous system is constantly responding to the people and those expectations and previous experiences and stuff. So, remind yourself of that if you’re in a situation where you don’t, you know, you aren’t feeling particularly safe, emotionally safe or Yeah. And also that psychological safety is absolutely vital as it enables us to let our guard down without feeling like we’re going to be judged. So when we’re in a safe place and we feel like we can let our guard down and be ourselves, then we can actually really truly be our authentic self, then you’re not kind of having to keep up that mask and you can Yeah, the second guessing. And also because when we’re masking and of course you know we all we all do mask. I’m sure of it. I still do as well. It’s not that I’ve perfected that. But when I am masking it changes how the environment feels because I’m self monitoring and it’s completely mentally exhausting. So ideally you need to try and get away from that.

Because if all you’re worrying about at an event is how you’re being perceived and making sure the mask doesn’t flip, then why are you even there? It’s just a waste of energy for you really. And also the importance of belonging. You know, when you find your people, you go to events where you know you’re going to feel safe and relaxed, then you truly belong there rather than just trying to fit in because trying to fit in is awkward and not always particularly successful.

Stuart: Yeah. I don’t want to be included just as an apology.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Well, let the specials in.

Hannah: Yeah. He’s coming. He is in his special suit. Come on, let him in. He’s a bit tall, but he’ll get in.

Stuart: Finally  the takeaways, just my top tip is 100% finding the events. Yes, of course there’ll be things that you have to go to because life sometimes just makes you go to some stuff, but actually ultimately finding the events, the people where you feel the most comfortable, you can be your authentic self. Because that’s really vital. It helps build your skills to go to events where you don’t feel so familiar and you don’t feel so safe. So, it’s kind of giving you that armour, those tools to then be able to accept or to cope with the events that you haven’t been to before and stuff.

Hannah: It’s all important stuff, isn’t it, Stu? Have you got any tips?

Stuart: Well, my tips I’ve kind of sort of been dripping them in throughout, so it’s more of a recap. Um, pay attention to who leaves you up feeling uplifted and energized and upbeat and positive. Um, pay attention to those people who you feel like, “Oh my god, another five minutes in this conversation and I’m just going to jump out of a toilet window

Hannah: Or go to prison.

Stuart: Yes. So, you know, be aware of that and don’t gaslight yourself to it. It’s very easy to go, “Oh, well, you know, shut up. You know, they’re fine.” No, no, don’t shut up. Listen. Listen to that little internal voice that goes not right there. There’s something there that’s telling you that. Analyze it. Learn it. Why? What’s the thing? Get good at spotting your people. Notice those environments where you can be authentically yourself and try and seek those out and try and think why did this one feel alright? It was different from the other one. In what regard was it? Maybe you were told beforehand or the host made you feel comfortable on the way in. in or you had a full expectation even though you had not been there before of what to expect, whatever. And then try and design that into any of the events or any of the places that you uh have any input in in curating and creating. That then comes to add asking for and advocating for yourself for agendas, information beforehand, requesting all of the basics of like, you know, will there be this at the event or that at the event? Then you know just clarifying that your needs are going to be met. If I need to sit down will there be a chair? You know, clarifying that ahead. If they said no there’s no way of having a chair. Well I’m really sorry I can’t come.

You know rather than finding yourself there then having an awkward conversation whilst you’re also in a psychologically unsafe situation because you’re like so if I continue at this place my option is I either have to be the arsehole and wave my arms around and advocate for myself or leave or put up with a painful situation which is going to take me days to recover afterwards, you know, and learning that all out in real time such an energy drain. On top of having got yourself there in the first place, it’s a minefield definitely. Also, confirm expectations with others. Do it proactively in reverse. When I come, I will expect this or that or if I’m if you’re coming to me, expect this or that. I’m sorry, it’s going to be a bit noisy. or my dog will be there. Is that okay? You know, all of those things will allow the other person to make accommodations and a judgment call for themselves rather than being thrown in. I had a particular friend who’s no longer a friend. We’d agree to meet up at a place or he would come round and pick me up and then it would be I’d be hijacked. I used to call it being hijacked because it’d be like, “Oh yeah, you know, we’re going to that thing. Yeah, well, I’ve just got to run a couple of errands first and I’ve got to go and do it.” And it would be an hour of driving around doing various things and it’s like you’ve not built this in and now I have to sit through watching you do this thing before we go to do the thing that I thought we were going to do. Nightmare. Again, like I say, a reason why certain people aren’t any longer in my life. I would also suggest this. So, this is what I do after an event. I always give myself time. Like I said, if I do a big event in the morning, I will have the afternoon off. And that’s presenting an event. That’s different to going to an event and if I’m going to an event I will nine times out of 10 have a fairly low bar day so it won’t be a high impact day on top of a high impact morning but if I am presenting an event and that’s usually a two or three hour uh of fairly intense um networking and also ma managing the room managing people managing everything to do with the room the v vibe the the noise all sorts um then I would have the afternoon off or the next morning off And this is what I will do. I will unpack the day. I’ll think about it. What went right? What went wrong? Why did it go wrong? What could I have done in the future that will prevent that from going wrong? Then I will decompress. In other words, let it all go. Doesn’t matter. Made a fool of myself. Doesn’t matter. The right person would have seen me and we would have connected. I or if nobody’s connected, then that was, you know, I went fishing and caught nothing. Well, fine. That’s fine, too. I get a chance to recharge because you know you have to recover after these events. But notice that the period of time of recovery is the Friday afternoon, not the weekend. The weekend is preparing for the next week. Like I say, rest is readiness for what’s to come, not reward for what’s done. And spend more time in spaces where you feel able to be yourself with the people that you are uh a best fit. Think of it like saw pieces. All the jigsaw pieces in a puzzle box are only going to fit several pieces around them. They’re not going to fit. And if you’re an edge piece, I’m a corner piece. I always think of myself as a corner piece.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Like there’s only a few people that are going to connect with me, but when they do, they’ll be the right people. Just getting clear on your own needs of what makes you feel particularly safe. What things do you need to wear a certain outfit? Do you need to have certain accommodations in place? Do you need to know certain things in advance? Get very clear on those and your life becomes a lot easier. And that’s it. That’s our show. That’s it this week. If you’ve got anything that you’d like to add, anything you’d like to explore, any notes, any comments, any quips, any input, please get in touch with us, hostsodcast.com. We’ve got a lot more content coming up for the neuroinclusive workplace. It’s been a slow burn, but the trait talking uh series will continue through the rest of the year. We’ve also got a load of new resources coming. I mean, there’s going to be a workplace review audit that’s coming. The neuroincclusive quotient, uh, NIQ, um, look out for that. And we’re doing some talks. There’s a 30 minute training video. There’s all sorts of stuff coming over the next few months. So, from September onwards, it will be really starting to take shape on the website. Keep your eyes open for that neuroincclusive workplace. Um, Hannah, anything, any final comments? Any final words? Obviously like, share, and subscribe. If you’ve been listening and you feel it’s been of value, tell someone. We’ve recently had a spike in uh listeners. We seem to have done something right. And uh yeah, we are now over 2,000 downloads. So, we’re absolutely motoring. So, what’s next week’s topic, Hannah?

Hannah: So, next week is the beginning of August, due. Exciting month. Exciting month. My wedding anniversary, just in case. I don’t know why I’m telling anybody that. It’s irrelevant. My husband’s not listening, and he’s the only one that really needs to remember. So anyway, tangent time. Um, so August is a magnificent theme. I mean, every month is, but August is particularly good in my opinion. The theme for August is special interests and hyperfocus. The passions that drive us, the obsessions that consume us and everything in between.

Stuart: I think we’ve um, a lot of us have got special interests and hyperfocus abilities, haven’t we, Stu?

Stuart: Uh, yeah. Yeah. It was 36 hours this week uh, editing our training. video just making it the best I could make it. Um, yeah,

Hannah: Talk about hyperfocus. I loved it because I was getting an update which I absolutely loved and you were like, you know, done another couple of slides. They took me four hours, but I did this and I but when I watched it, it is just Yeah, we’ll send you all there to watch it. It’s magnificent when it’s up and live and stuff, but utter work of art.

Stuart: It’s there. It’s quite good. Uh, it just needs the final last little tweaks and I’m sure it’ll be fine. But other than that, thank you very much for listening. Please get in touch if you’ve got any questions or like we say any suggestions. We love to hear from the audience. Thank you very much and we’ll see you next time. Goodbye.

Pathological Demand Avoidance aka PDA – Trait Talking S01E01

In our series for the Neuroinclusive Workplace we are looking at traits, and their impact on the neurodivergent.

Today we discuss PDA; what’s PDA? Pathological Demand Avoidance…

Ever been asked to do something you were literally about to do… and suddenly your brain responds with a very firm “Absolutely not”?

Welcome to the wonderfully confusing world of PDA.

In this first episode of our new Trait Talking series, we take a closer look at one of the most misunderstood neurodivergent traits. We explore why demands – whether they come from other people or from ourselves – can trigger genuine resistance, why PDA isn’t about being difficult or lazy, and why so many of us end up questioning our own reactions.

We also talk about the everyday reality of living with PDA: deadlines that somehow make a task harder, the difference between procrastination and demand avoidance, why body doubling doesn’t work for everyone, and how a simple change in language can make a surprising difference. Along the way, we share plenty of our own lived experiences (including unopened presents, dishwashers, DIY, hugs, and tax returns) because, as ever, neurodivergence rarely follows a straight line.

Whether you identify with PDA yourself, live with someone who does, or simply want to understand why “just do it” is rarely that simple, this episode is a compassionate introduction to a trait that’s often hidden behind misunderstanding.

Because understanding what’s happening inside your brain is often the first step towards being a little kinder to yourself.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:50 – Today’s Trait – Intro to Pathological Demand Avoidance – PDA
00:02:18 – Description of Pathological Demand Avoidance – PDA
00:04:20 – Hannah’s lived experience – the internal PDA pressure
00:06:45 – Gaslighting yourself about your own PDA
00:08:15 – I will open presents in my own time TYVM!
00:10:20 – The “Naughty Child” label
00:12:02 – “I need that for Wednesday at 3pm” – NOPE! Be tter deadline scheduling
00:15:01 – Why it’s not just procrastination
00:16:21 – Can bodydoubling help?
00:17:35 – PDA affects more than just work, even making decisions comes with PDA
00:19:26 – PDA can turn up at the worst possible time too with accomplices
00:23:01 – Managing staff with PDA and the importance of context and “feeling it”
00:25:00 – Why you don’t say “We need to leave now” & gaslighting your own PDA
00:26:30 – Round up and outro thank you and goodbye
00:27:15 – Hugging… nope…
00:29:19 – Like, Share and Subscribe
00:29:45 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

Link to the Neuroinclusive Manifesto – what we’d like to see our lawmakers do to protect neurodiversity in society

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – A range of resources for neurodivergent business owners.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

Stuart: Welcome to a business Oddcast special edition. We’re going to be doing a few shorter episodes and we’re going to be focusing on traits. Because we get people asking us about various traits, or “does this mean I’m autistic, or does that mean I’m neurodivergent?” And the answer is one trait alone, no.

There’s many many reasons why you might have that trait and it’s not just one trait. It’s a cluster of traits. You cannot define one individual by one set of traits…oh don’t go down that rabbit hole. But we’re going to be looking at traits because these traits show up over and over and over again. And Hannah, what’s today’s trait?

Hannah: PDA. Hooray. Our favorite friend. What does it mean, Stu?

Stuart: What is PDA? What does it stand for? Pathological demand avoidance?

Hannah: Well, because I wouldn’t be Hannah if I didn’t tangent for one nanosecond. Did you know that now some people like to call it ‘persistent drive for autonomy’.

Stuart: Oh,

Hannah: I know. And I quite like that. Although I will always say pathological demand avoidance because that’s what I know. But yeah, persistent drive for autonomy. I think that sums it up really nicely as well. Well, doesn’t it kind of Yeah.

Stuart: It’s the opposite side of the same coin in a way, isn’t it?

Hannah: Yes. It’s less “You’re doing something wrong”.
Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah: “I just want to be in charge. Back off”.

Stuart: Exactly. Is there any wonder why there’s a high percentage of neurodivergence in the entrepreneurial community?

Hannah: Oh, just one of the many reasons why you might not want a boss. I think I’ve told you before. before, haven’t I? But one of my stepbrothers used to call me Queenie coz as a little girl, I was the youngest in that particular part of our family. And um yeah, I just had to whip them into shape.

Stuart: Well, somebody had to. If nobody else was, I guess it’s my job.

Hannah: Exactly that.

Stuart: So PDA, let me read out what PDA is. PDA is pathological demand avoidance, which describes a profile most commonly associated with autism, but not necessarily the only type of neurodivergence that might display this behavior, but it’s where a simple, or a seemingly simple, everyday request triggers a genuine shutdown of any kind of chance of that thing happening from the neurodivergent individual.

And it’s not them being naughty. It’s not them being willful. It’s not them just ignoring you. It’s just literally your brain just refuses. Right. Well, now that’s at the bottom of the to-do list. What? You won’t necessarily get to that today now. And even though you’re a rational human and you’re thinking, why have I done that? No, I’ve emotionally disengaged from it and I do not need to be a part of any of that. That emergency on your part is not one on mine. So there’s this whole response.

Now the term was first coined by a developmental psychologist Elizabeth Newson in the 80s and it’s kind of controversial because there isn’t actually an official diagnosis. You can’t go to your doctor and say , “I think I’ve got PDA”. Mostly because he’ll go, what the hell is that? But you talk to anyone in the autistic community, in the neurodivergent community, and they will identify hard with the idea that once you have been asked to do something, it’s almost like somebody puts a locked door in front of you and asks you to get through it. That’s what it is and that’s what we’re discussing and that’s what we’re talking about over the next sort of 25-30 minutes. Um Hannah, PDA in your life, what have you experienced to do with PDA?

Hannah: Oh my gosh, how long have you got Stu? Get yourself a..

Stuart: I’ve just said 25-30 minutes. So you can come in under that. I’ll be grateful.

Hannah: Now you told me to do it, I’m not doing it. Now I’m going to sit in silence for half an hour. Um, so one thing I didn’t know and actually I relate probably more to this, but you’ve got the kind of external and internal PDA going on, haven’t you? So you’ve got the kind of people telling you to do stuff. Yeah, that’s a hard nope because actually when I tell myself I’ve got to do stuff like oh god later on I’ve got to do a post on LinkedIn.

Or you know I’ve got to, actually my tax return is a real thing right now you know I need to get my stuff over to the accountant. Once I’ve said that to myself I’m like “no”. Now I’ve told myself to do it I can’t. So there’s a misconception that PDA is just other people telling you to do stuff, but it isn’t. It’s that pressure, that internal pressure as well, that we put on ourselves.

Stuart: Yeah, which is hard because people that know less about this would say, “Well, then just don’t, you know, don’t pressure yourself.” Well, it doesn’t work like that. It doesn’t work like that, does it?

Hannah: Just don’t do it, Stu. Just don’t think about it and it will all magically disappear.

Stuart: Um, yeah. Yeah. It’s a tough one because your rational self knows that it’s almost irrational and then you go down the shame spiral of why can’t I engage with this? Why is this thing which I have declared to be important now very unlikely to get done. Very unlikely.

Hannah: It’s so true. And the thing that people struggle with as well, or what I find. We both are really capable in what we do for business and a lot of the things we do… not trying to big us up… but we just are very thorough people. But actually PDA can look like a massive contradiction.

Like if I’m saying to somebody I know “sorry I didn’t pick up the phone because it was ringing at my face and then I was like, ‘Nope’.” So, I just delete, you know, or I didn’t reply to a text because I felt the PDA, the pressure from it. But actually, I run my own business. So, people are like, “Well, how can you be so shit at that but so good at that?” It’s a massive contradiction. And when you say it out loud, you know, when I say out loud the stuff that gives me PDA, I question myself. I’m like, “Really, Hannah? Are you making this up?” But, you know, I can work through the night.

Sorry to interrupt you.

You know, I can work through the night writing a blog for hours and hours and hours, but I can’t remember to, well it’s not a ‘remember’. I feel too much pressure to invoice a client. You know what I mean? It’s just

Stuart: Oh, I’ve got two months of invoicing to do. And I know that sounds really shoddy, but my bookkeeper has disappeared and I was going to say rage quit. She hasn’t. She’s delightfully quit. She’s very lovingly quit. You know, to retire and try and enjoy better health. And I totally back her for that. Um, but the point is now I have to do it. Oh, come on. You can’t make me.

Hannah: It’s really hard to explain to somebody that doesn’t get it. And I’d imagine most people that listen to this will be nodding along.

Stuart: Um, yeah. or everybody else has switched off and gone like what? No, these idiots are making it up. Um or they’re the people we’ve said, “You must listen to this.” Let me give you a weird insight. I almost get that with presents. You know, when somebody gives you a present, it’s like, “Please open it now.” No, I will open it under my own time and my own steam. I’m not ready to respond. And I’ve got to do the whole thing with my face at the same time as well as deal with this social situation.

Hannah: Fake joy face. Yay. I love it. (I hate it)
.
Stuart: One of the abiding memories that I absolutely remember thinking as a child was watching my mom assemble her face into a smile for a photograph and watching it and she would try on these various smiles until she reached the right sort of emotional pitch for the photograph. Do you remember when photographs were a much more thought through thing. You had to think to go, “Oh, am I going to waste a photo when you have to pay for each one? Oh, am I going to waste a photo in this environment?” So that’s why you get like really quite formal photographs even like in the 80s or whatever coz everyone was like, “Oh, I might not, I’ve only got 10 photographs left and you know, it’s a few days to payday and then I got to pay for it to be all right, we’ll take a photo.” Uh, but watching my mom assemble her face. I remember that and all the way through even when I had my camera I’d say to her “mom, I’m taking a photo” and she would assemble her face and I used to think to myself that’s odd. And it’s odd that I noticed it. But yeah, that’s the thing isn’t it? It’s like that performative thing for the social situation.

Hannah: As you were telling me that I imagined this kind of photoface activation ‘ching’ like this kind of press the button. The lever photo face (pretends to pull a lever)

Stuart: Less smile. Less smile. But yeah, I can see it being a problem in kids as well that if you’re labeled a naughty child or a child that refuses to help or do whatever, I can see, you know, but why do we expect and this is the thing that I have a real problem with. Give your auntie a kiss goodbye. If you want to give the auntie a kiss goodbye, give her a kiss goodbye. Don’t you like forcing the child to do it and you see this and you’re like “the child might have all sorts”. There was one particular auntie I never wanted to kiss coz she always wore the strongest perfume. So every time you went in it was like somebody giving you a kiss and going “give me a kiss”.

Hannah: Overwhelmed by lavender. No, get off!

Stuart: So, yeah. So, it is and it’s really hard for a child to resist parental authority when they’re trying to keep themselves emotionally regulated because of some external factor they may not even understand, or even an internal factor like PDA. So, I find it a strange one, but I also find it comes strongly with personal autonomy. So, that is that drive for autonomy that you were talking about. It really sits with me. I really like that. Yeah, definitely.

Hannah: It makes sense, doesn’t it? And like you said at the beginning, it feels like demand avoidance sounds like you’re just a pain in the ass that won’t do what you’re told. Whereas the drive for autonomy is like actually “I know that I’ll be more productive if I can take some kind of charge of this situation or I can get in control of it”. It just feels a lot more positive. I suppose

Stuart: The worst thing for me is somebody saying I need that by Wednesday at 3:00.

Hannah: Oh yeah

Stuart: because that’s like “oh you’ve just put a landmark in my diary which means that it’s inviable and I can’t look at anything like the phone call today at 11:00. I couldn’t do anything beforehand. All I can think about is the phone call at 11:00. So now all I can think about is the deadline at 3 p.m. on Wednesday, which you’d think is a good thing because it focuses you but it doesn’t give you any more motivation. It’s not like it suddenly arrives with a whole ton of ‘go’ to it. It just sits there like a spider in a web waiting for you the closer it gets. So Stuart, what would you use? The best one to use is I’m hoping to get this wrapped up by 3:00 Wednesday. If you could get your stuff to me, we can work on it and look at it together. And I’m much more likely to get involved with that because it’s like I feel like I’m being supported rather than dictated to.

And it’s a subtle shift. And it’s like I kind of work with you in a similar way that I like to be worked to. If I need something concrete done, I won’t say to you I need this done. I will say our best interests are served if we can both collaborate on this and get it sorted by this. Because then it doesn’t feel that it’s somebody else’s will that is pushing you to do it. So that again chimes with that demand for autonomy.

Hannah: I love that because we did a piece of work together recently separate to the podcast and I said “what’s the hard deadline for this to be due?” and you said the end of whatever month it was. That was great because that gave me over three weeks and then I got that autonomy. I got to set my own interim deadlines before that but I knew. So I wasn’t just thinking like this doom clock of like ‘tick tick tick’ till the end of the month. I’d already set myself like, okay in a week’s time I’ll be at this point. Do you know what I mean? So at that point you’re taking back the control and yet you know that there’s an overall deadline set by somebody else. But even then you weren’t like “we will die if you don’t do it”. You were like “that’s the goal” you know. I think that would be a good goal to aim for. And then it just worked really well and we hit the deadline.
Stuart: Yeah it wasn’t awful for me, the best kind of project that I can get given is “I want to achieve this however you want”. Here’s the budget. Here are the constraints. Here are the restrictions. Even with the deadline, I don’t mind if that’s all part of what I sign up for. It’s the change of context where you go into something and then somebody goes, “Oh, and of course, like we will need to see it a week before the deadline.” You’re like, “No, no, the deadline’s the deadline. That’s when you’ll get it.” No, but we need to see it a week before. Well, now we’re going to have an argument. Now we’re going to have a fight. A proper fist fight out in a car park. Shirt sleeves. But it does, it just crops up and from the outside looks a lot like procrastination and to some degree it kind of is procrastination.

But this is what I was saying at the outset: the trait may look the same on the outside but the driver on the inside comes from an entirely different position. So from what I understand about procrastination it’s just literally people just putting off what they should do until tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow. But it’s not like that with PDA. It’s that you’re completely emotionally disengaged with it. You can’t even think about it without it causing you to go, “Oh, no, no, no, no. I’m not, I don’t want to even think about it. I’ve got a particular thing at the moment. I’m not going to go into it. I’ve got a particular thing at the moment that when I think about it, I sometimes have an involuntary flinch and vocalization because my brain literally recoils from it going, “No, oh, no, no, no.” And how do I explain that to somebody that my body has decided that I will have a physical reaction to the idea of starting a particular and specific task? Nuts. It’s literally, how do you explain that?

Hannah: So, here’s something to consider with PDA. Body doubling. Body doubling is the idea that you can kind of get up and get beyond PDA in a situation for example with my daughter she really struggles to tidy her room of her own volition but if actually I kind of say “well hey I’ll start helping you with this bit” it’s that body doubling scenario where we’re kind of geeing each other on. But for me, I even feel a bit angry just thinking about this, for me body doubling is somebody else watching me. And when somebody is watching me I freeze like a child. I’m like nope nope I can feel your eyes on me I’m not doing it now.

Stuart: I 100% see that because I cannot do any DIY if anyone’s watching me. It’s an absolute nightmare. It’s just like what? No, I’m just watching what you’re doing. I’m interested. No, you can’t. You just go away. It’s not the perception thing. It’s not the judgment. It’s like I know I’m doing it well. I don’t need someone to tell me. I don’t need that. That’s not where my ego needs validating. Please.

Hannah: I don’t need cheerleaders on the side with the pom poms like, “Yay. He’s doing it. So PDA isn’t, we have both seen this and I’m sure everybody listening will have seen this in some shape or form. PDA isn’t just about the effect it has on work though, right? Because, for me personally, it has definitely affected my friendships, sort of relationships in general, my marriage. I mean, my husband is quite bossy and he’ll say stuff like, “Can you put the pans back in the dishwasher?” And I’m just like, “No, not now you’ve asked. No, I was just about to, but now I’m not going to do it. He thinks I’m being an idiot and I. But I’m really not being an idiot. I can’t. It’s just really It sounds like the world’s worst. As I say out loud, it sounds like the world’s worst.

Stuart: It’s the weight of the expectation as well. It’s a lot of things. And it’s also a bit of RSD rejection because it’s a bit like “you didn’t think I saw the mess and am not a sentient adult and could come to that conclusion myself. Oh, I’m a child. Am I”? And it’s not that at all. It may be just, you know, somebody pointing out, “Oh, that needs doing.” And they’re saying it out loud almost to remind themselves that it needs doing.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. And then we’re kind of, or I certainly am, it’s just brutal. Another thing, and I only kind of realised this recently, so my whole life has been my mother or anybody saying, “Oh, you’re so bad at making decisions.” And you’ll have noticed it yourself, Stu, if you say like, “What day should we record?” or I’m like, “Oh, what do you want to do?” It’s not because I’m just like the world’s most accommodating kind person. I’m really not. It’s because of the question of having to pick one. Pick one, Hannah. I can’t at that point. And that is PDA.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: I finally realised. So, if anybody is listening and thinking, “I’m crap at making decisions”. It is or can be a form of PDA or an example of PDA.

Stuart: And it’s really odd that the PDA tends to turn up for me more when it’s in my best interests to do the thing that somebody has told me to rather than if somebody asks me to do something that’s in their best interest. So if somebody says to me, “Oh, Stu, could you give me a lift?” It’ll be hugely inconvenient, but I will struggle. I’ve got better over the years to say no. I’m more likely to say, “Well, it will very much depend on my schedule on the day. I’ll have to look at my diary, you know, me usual.” And if I can, obviously, I would like to, but if it’s my own brain going, “I need to go to Screw Fix to pick up that broom”. Does it take me three days to get in the car to go and pick up the broom from Screw Fix so I can sweep the bloody path and tidy the house? Why? But if my friend had come around and said, “Oh, could we just nip to Screw Fix? Don’t you worry. Jump in. We’ll be there.” What? What? How? What? I just don’t know. I don’t know.

Hannah: It is bizarre. I’m a total yes person, aren’t I? I’ve now announced that live on one of our podcasts. There’s going to be people inundating me with requests. I am somebody that struggles to say no. But then maybe I can say no to somebody if my husband says, “Can you put that in the dishwasher?” That’s like a no-brainer for me. Literally no. But then if somebody’s asking me if I can do them a favour, I sometimes struggle to say no to myself. Does that make sense? I’ve not worded that very well.

Stuart: Yeah. No, no, no. Your default position when somebody else asks is yes. But this is what I’m saying that that self-interest, you know, putting it in the dishwasher is caught kind of in your best interest because it leads to a tidier home and, you know, sanitary condition, blah, blah, blah.

Hannah: Happier husband.

Stuart: Happier husband. But the moment that it’s in my own best interest and you tell me to do it, oh, as a kid, oh, get off the wall. You’ll fall. No, I’d fall. Crunch. And then my dad would be like, Well, I told you. Yeah, but that was my choice, not because you told me to. I got off the wall because I fell off the wall.

Hannah: That autonomy then, that struggle for autonomy. Yeah.

Stuart: Always. What might not be immediately apparent is you have this response and it’s not all cake and candles. You’re not having a party and a carnival inside your head. It comes with a massive amount of anxiety because like I said, if this stuff is in your best interest, you’re obviously then working against your best interest and your brain does the whole “oh my god what if I never unfreeze? You have to relax and go “don’t”. The more you seize up and tighten up around it the less chance there is of you actually relaxing enough to do it. And a lot of the stuff that we do is very creative and you need to be loose and in the moment and if you’re seized up trying to fight that. Like the worst thing I can do is put a diary entry in which is something like “design website” or “write column”. I tried it.

Yeah.

As soon as I see it in the diary, I’m like, “well, maybe I can’t summon my creative juices”. My creative juices arrive at 3:00am in the morning. I have to wake up, hammer out a text to Stu that’s going to be the other side of the sleep and then you know, wake up, read it, and try and translate. Was he drunk? What the hell was that? I guess it depends on the task. Turning up and running at a certain time and all the rest of that is a commitment and having done it myself, you know that I the motivation I used was if I turn up on marathon day having not done this, I won’t have a very good day. I will have a really really bad day. Like one of the worst days.

Uh so it’s in my best interest to do it and I’m not allowed to have an emotion about it beforehand. Now you can say well if you can do that for running. Stuart, why can’t you do it for a creative task like writing or designing? And the answer is I very much have to feel it. And that’s what would make me a nightmare. Imagine working in a design agency and your boss comes to you and says, “Stuart, um, could you do that design tomorrow for that website?” Yeah, I might not feel it. What? Juices aren’t flowing. Do you know I’m going out tonight, so my energy is probably very low. In fact, I wasn’t going to come in tomorrow morning. You’ll get some good work out of me in the afternoon, but it won’t be on that project because my brain’s on this other thing, and I’ve got to finish that, get it out the queue before that gets cued.

And how do you explain that? How do you have that conversation without it just looking like, “Well, uh, I’m sorry about your own internal system, but could you just get on with the design and do what I’m paying you for?”

Yeah. Well, that’s it, isn’t it? It’s like, I’m not paying you to have an opinion. I’m paying you to do a job. And I get it. But this is where I think the neuro inclusive workplace will work so much better. If you’d have included me in the conversation about the planning of when it would turn up, I would feel way more likely to be able to do it for you tomorrow because I’d have had some context around it. I’d have had advanced notice. I’d have been able to set my expectations. I’d have been able to agree with you on what works best for me as well. Not just here you go. That’s what you’re doing. in anything that Gemma knows.

The moment you tap your watch and go, “Oh, we should be out the door right now.” I’ve got 12 things I’ve just remembered I need doing, including having a shower and getting a change of outfit. Once you start to listen to your own internal voice and stop gaslighting yourself if that’s a real thing, not being able to do something that you desperately want to do, you relax your grip on it slightly more and you feel less broken.

You feel like, well, that’s the way it is. Uh, and other people are like it, so I can’t be the only one. And being able to share this with yourself, it’s like I’m not the only one. And I have not let this out to this extent since we started the podcast. And I think that more people need to hear it.

Hannah: But that’s the point, isn’t it? We are both successfully, you know, showing up in our day-to-day lives, winning at stuff, and yet we can also say, you know what, I can’t do any of my exercises because my brain’s like “nope” or you know all of the things you’ve shared as well. So um there’s no shame in it.

Stuart: It’s got to start with self-acceptance and self understanding. And even if you don’t yet accept yourself, understanding what’s going on is the first step. So don’t feel bad that you think, oh, you know, I’m still not there with that or I still feel a great amount of shame and guilt.

Hey, there’s stuff that we’re going to touch on and cover that I don’t think I’m ever going to not have some kind of feeling of less than or other than. It’s just the nature of the situation, the nature of neurodivergence. So, thank you very much uh Hannah for all of the insights you’ve shown us and shared with us.

Hannah: likewise,

Stuart: Yeah, it’s been good to sort of just sort of deep dive on a single trait, but like we say, traits don’t make people. You’ve met one neurodivergent, you’ve met one neurodivergent, and it’s the same with neurotypicals. Don’t judge someone just because of a single point of data. Anyway, it’s available where all podcasts are available. It’ll be on our website in a new uh section/part of our resources and part of our kit. And if you’re here from the neuroinclusive workspace, the work that we’re doing, it’s a pleasure to be virtually acquainted with you. Um please do let us know if anything we’ve said sort of touched something within you.

Hannah: We’re not touching you.

Stuart: Certainly won’t be getting anywhere close to you. Thank you very much. Please stand six. I love lockdown. Six foot off. Yes, please. Thank you. No hugging at all times. Welcome. Welcome, SARS. Whatever it was.

Hannah: Yeah. Not to, no, I’m not saying Covid was a good thing, by the way. That was just Yeah, but not having to touch people is an amazing thing.

Stuart: Not having a social hug and then feeling weird when you say no thank you. They look at you. They look so disappointed. It’s like a child who’s had their balloon burst. No thanks. What? Nobody says no to a hug, I just did. I think you’re fine. We’ve moved on. Carry on.

Hannah: I was at an event with another like majestically spicy brained human who I love. And this woman went to hug him and he just put his hand up and went, “No”. That’s it. And she was just like, “Oh.” And it was a bit awkward for her, but you know, there’s a boundary for you right there. Don’t try to hug somebody.

Stuart: You tried to step over a boundary and you got it immediately applied. And now I’m the wrong person because I can’t sensorially take somebody hugging me. Oh no, thank you.
Touching me. Or the one where you say no thank you and somebody goes, “Oh no, shut up and get in here.” Everyone loves a hug. I feel like saying “me too. Me too”. Yes. Not to diminish anybody else’s experience, but just Yeah. Respect people’s personal space, ma’am.

Hannah: Exactly.

Stuart: So, anyway, thank you very much for listening. Please do like, share, subscribe, do all those wonderful things, and we’ll see you in the next thing that we do, but there will be more about these traits. And if you’ve got a particular trait that you would like us to take a look at or mention or discuss, send it in to: hosts@businessoddcast.com. And we’ll see you next time. So, thanks very much for listening. Hannah, say goodbye.

Hannah: Bye.

Episode 34: The ‘No’ toolkit- Boundaries for ND brains

For something that’s only two letters long, “no” can create a truly astonishing amount of panic. One boundary becomes a guilt spiral, three imagined arguments, and a sudden urge to explain your entire life story to justify why you can’t help someone move house on a Tuesday afternoon.

In this episode, we unpack why saying no can feel so disproportionately difficult for neurodivergent people. From people-pleasing and rejection sensitivity to masking, perfectionism, and the fear of disappointing others, we explore why so many of us end up saying yes long after we’ve run out of time, energy, and capacity.

We talk about overcommitting, resentment, energy management, and the hidden cost of constantly putting everyone else’s needs ahead of our own. We also share practical strategies for creating boundaries that actually stick, including scripts, pause techniques, recognising when resentment is trying to tell you something important, and learning how to say no without writing a 14-page witness statement in your defence.

Because boundaries aren’t about being difficult. They’re about making sure there’s still enough of you left for the things that matter.

If you’ve ever agreed to something and immediately regretted it… this one’s for you.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:46 – Topic of the Week – The No Toolkit – Boundaries for ND Brains
00:01:21 – Topic introduction – No, boundaries and protection
00:03:28 – Why the concept of “no” feels so big & risky
00:05:19 – How burnout affects priorities, no as a survival tactic
00:06:32 – The cost of “no” and creating room for rest and recovery
00:09:10 – What a disproportionate reaction to new boundaries means
00:10:51 – The cost of over-accommodation of others
00:12:43 – The bigger the excuse you give the more they have to work with
00:13:23 – The soft “no” – the calendar check-in before response
00:15:26 – Why saying “yes” is a dopamine trap…
00:17:05 – TANGENT 01 – Stu muses on ND’s naive quality that gets taken advantage of
00:18:20 – Boundaries aren’t control – it’s about protecting our energy
00:19:00 – TANGENT 02 – Hannah shares a real-world example of not saying no
00:20:03 – Do you respect and believe your own “No”?
00:20:50 – Resenting not saying NO!
00:22:13 – Approaches to saying “no”
00:26:40 – Dealing with repeat offenders
00:27:43 – Saying no to yourself is often the hardest boundary to impose
00:31:33 – Energy management lesson learned from running
00:32:02 – Rest Guilt and struggling to switch off and resting being “lazy”
00:35:28 – Why are you full of resentment when you say yes?
00:37:01 – Red flagging unwarranted and disproportionate push back Pt2.
00:37:50 – When “no” can be detrimental, conserve your energy strategically
00:40:22 – You don’t owe them your life story to put a boundary in place
00:43:17 – Stuart’s business confession about his diary
00:45:07 – The double empathy trap keeping you time-starved and energy poor
00:46:03 – Stu’s energy issues with short-notice change
00:47:40 – Is it you or your mask saying “yes”?
00:50:08 – HELL YEAH! or F&CK NO!
00:50:30 – Hannah takeaways and insights
00:54:45 – Stu’s top tips and thoughts
00:57:58 – Thank you and goodbye
00:59:47 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

Link to the Neuro-inclusive Manifesto – what we’d like to see our lawmakers do to protect neurodiversity in society

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – A range of resources for neurodivergent business owners.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

Stuart: The Business podcast. Welcome to the Business Podcast. I’m your host, uh, Stuart Morrison, and right alongside me, my co-conspirator, co-host, partner in crime, Hannah Logan. Hello, Hannah Logan. Welcome. How you doing?

Hannah: I’m good. I’m good, Stu. Yeah, I know we’ve discussed this week’s topic. Uh, we we’ve been around this on a number of occasions and we’ve discussed a lot of the elements in here, but we’re going on a deep dive.

Stuart: So, do you want to tell us what this week’s topic is?

Hannah: Oh, Stu. Yeah, I can’t decide whether this is going to be like me sobbing and you getting a bit embarrassed by it all or it’s just going to be like this kind of empowering. Anyway, stop rambling, Hannah. Today is ‘the no toolkit boundaries for ND brains’.

Stuart: So, we’re going to be finding out a lot about where each other’s boundaries are and the rules that we got in place.

Hannah: I think we’re going to find out I haven’t got any and you’ve got lots, Stu – is probably the answer to that.

Stuart: Thank you for listening to this episode of the business podcast. That’s basically the end. Hannah sucks at boundaries. Stuart’s got Hannah and Stuart’s share of boundaries. That’s the answer to that.

Hannah: Um so just to kind of summarise this episode a bit for a lot of us or for a lot of people I would imagine that saying ‘no’ can actually feel disproportionately difficult. And that’s not always because we don’t have limits or because, well, it isn’t always because we don’t have limits. It’s not necessarily a complete lack of boundaries, but more so a lot of us feel responsible for the other person’s feelings, their comfort, expectations, all of that stuff. So, for example, when I say no to somebody, I am already preempting how they’re going to feel. To a lot of folks out there that’s not even a thing that crosses their brain. And that’s because a lot of neurodivergent people are really highly empathetic, so highly responsive and really sensitive to rejection. We’ve talked in other episodes about the rejection sensitivity. And because a lot of us, I’m guessing pretty much all of us have that, we’re therefore in that mindset that the other person might take that no in the same way that we do. So this episode reframes no as a sort of form of protection rather than confrontation.

Stuart: Yeah, I like that. I do confess that to shift me from my default ‘no’ position to a yes is much harder than most. But I’d like to flag that I have raging PDA and if anyone demands that I do something, then Oh no., I’m so bad. PDA is brutal. It is. It’s terrible.

Hannah: The moment they say I need you, too. My brain goes, yeah, I’m done. “No, Hannah, I need you, to…”. No! I don’t know what you’re going to say, but I am 100% not doing it. I’m not five. I do not need to be told what to do. Jesus.

Stuart: And we’re off.

Hannah: So, let’s have a look, you know. Let’s have a quick look. But why no, the word no can feel or the concept of no can feel bigger than it really is. Um, because for some of us it feels risky. So we worry about the impact. And a lot of us also crave approval. So saying no risks all of that or in our minds it risks all of that. Like I said about the rejection sensitivity, we really want to avoid those situations because we know how brutal RSD is, or can be. And we also generally avoid conflict. I mean, no one likes conflict, but because we’ve probably had more conflict than most in our lifetimes as neurodivergent people. Um, we particularly hate it and we know that saying no potentially opens us up to conflict and it can trigger a fear of sort of disappointing others.

Stuart: Oh, the look in somebody’s eyes when you give a no when they’ve expected—Crushed look.

Hannah : I actually feel a bit sad now just thinking of anybody that’s had that crushed face. A lot of us ,we’ve had a lifetime of being made to feel that we’re disappointing, you know, like “oh Hannah’s done it again”. So “no” is a statement that more often than not is going to get some kind of push back from the other person. Or it is going to disappoint them, you know, if they’re hoping for a yes. And also people pleasing. Saying no doesn’t support our desire, for a lot of us, to people please, does it? It’s kind of the absolute opposite of that.

Stuart: Also, agreement means that you keep the status quo usually. I didn’t always have a very hard “no” boundary. Until the first massive implosion and that was when I decided to employ the “no”. Just way too many. I reflected then and that was without any knowledge of my neurodivergence that I needed to say no. I just needed it. And in fact the “no” was imposed on me because I just didn’t have any energy. So even if I’d have said yes, I’d have just been disappointing people because I wouldn’t have turned up. Learning “no” for me was a survival tactic.

Hannah: That makes sense. And it feels to me like you were very self-aware. um pretty early on.

Stuart: So, somebody said this to me and I can’t remember who it was, but it stuck. And it’s like, if you cannot respect my no, then you can’t respect my yes. Because you’re going to expect my yes. And if it’s an expectation it’s like, well, I’m sorry. You don’t respect me if you can’t handle my no because. That just means I’m a yes man at that point. And if anybody knows me, that’s certainly not the role I’m ever going to fit well into. I was looking back on my working years and I think I shared with you one of the last dates that I was employed. What was it? 94 some somewhere around that 94, 95?

Hannah: 95 that was it.

Stuart: Um and looking back then I could see the signs that I was saying yes but everything about me you was no and eventually my body caught up and it went “nah I can’t do any of this, just, you need to lie down for a long time”. Yeah but that was the formative years of going through what I look back on as 10 years of hell, and then just realizing that actually when I say no I get more time to myself. I get more of my own energy. I get to enjoy my energy rather than just running around being this helpmate to people Oh god, the things I did at just a moment’s notice. Somebody, “oh, my car’s broken down”. Oh, I’ll be there. You know, dropping everything and dashing over and then spending the rest of the day because that was the template I was shown by my parents. Oh, you’ve got to be a helpful person. But actually, no, I’m really sorry. I can’t come out right now. If you want help, I can help you Wednesday. If that’s no help right now, then I’m really sorry. And I believe that learning how to say that and delivering it with empathy, you know, I’m not talking about being an absolute dick. But if you can’t, you can call me and ask for help, but that call is not an automatic obligation. Um, oh yeah, Stuart, but you know, family, you know, blood’s thicker than water etc. Yeah, but you’ve got to put your own oxygen mask on first. And if you’re depleting your energy to help somebody else who’s got normal standard gen pop issue energy, you’re not helping yourself. You’ve got to remember that that energy comes at a cost.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely.

Stuart: And I think the problem is if you are a ‘yes’ person, then eventually quite quickly it turns into when you do say no, you’re treated like, oh, what’s wrong with you? You’re so unfair and it’s just a no. But because they’re so used to yes, yes, yes. Suddenly it’s a really big deal if you actually find your boundaries for one occasion.

Hannah: Um Yeah. Yeah, I get it. It is tough, and especially when you like you said you start to employ it because people see the change and I see this quite a lot. I see this so much. Somebody enforces a boundary, especially when they’re suddenly realizing that they need boundaries, and then you get a reaction from the other side which is disproportionate to the boundary you’ve put in. And at that point you know that you’re being taken advantage of.

Stuart: And I think way too few people realize neurotypicals, neurodivergent, it doesn’t matter. The point is if you put in a boundary and the other person blows up out of nowhere when it’s a perfectly reasonable boundary, then the problem doesn’t lie inside the boundary.

Hannah: No. Absolutely. That I remember when I first got to the boundaries section of my therapy, one of my many therapies. We’ve documented that well on these. “Therapist number 25. Come in. Welcome to the challenge that is Hannah”. Um when we got to the boundaries section of that little relationship. Um I implemented it to some close family members outside of my husband and kids. And one of them said, “What’s happened to you? You used to be so kind. What’s wrong? What’s going on? Your therapist has changed you. You’re not the same person.”

Stuart: Isn’t that the point?

Hannah: Yes. Exactly. Spent thousands But you know what? Because I was, so I still am to some degree, you know, that did make me think, “oh yes”, you know, I need to change back. So it’s messed up, isn’t it?

Stuart: Yeah. Let’s move on to point number two. The over accommodation being a survival strategy. And I get it. I mean, who amongst us hasn’t been in a social setting where you’re getting along, you’re ticking along, you’re doing whatever you’re doing. Um, but you realize that, and this smacks to say this, that your use to the group is completely utilitarian. Your inclusion in the group is dependent on being available for lifts, putting your hand in your pocket more than most, being a friendly ear, somebody that they can phone at a moment’s notice, and you will drop everything and get around that. That kind of friendship is not friendship coz what happens is when you go to use the friendship in the same way. So you go to a third party and say “oh, you know, can you?” They’re always busy. They’re always doing something else. It’s not necessarily even a no. It’s just “oh if only you’d asked sooner”. Do you know what I mean? And then you go into that place in your head like they’re right. “Yeah. Yeah. It was a bit of an ask and, oh, it was a bit last minute” And you overcompensate for them. No, I just learned that no is a complete sentence. It’s a, you know, poster you can put up on your wall. But if they then need further explanation, they’re not your friend. Okay, you may offer further information. You may give context so that it doesn’t land so brutally. But if you just say, “No, sorry, I can’t.” And the person lights up like blackpool illuminations at Christmas. Well, we found our problem and it’s not inside the boundary.

Hannah: I’ve seen it where the moment that you give them a little bit more, you know, “sorry, I can’t do that because I’ve got a really busy day”. That moment you give them a bit more, they’ve got something to work with. “Oh, well, if you move this on that day, you won’t be so busy”. And then they start haggling with you about, you know.

Stuart: yes, they enter into a negotiation like a toddler.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: But you don’t negotiate with the toddler. You set the boundary. You explain the boundary. If the toddler’s rolling around thrashing on the floor, you don’t get down on the floor and thrash around with them, do you?

Hannah: Well, um, unfortunately, quite a lot of the adults I know. Not anymore, Stu. That’s progress.

Stuart: But yes, and it’s that agreeing too quickly. So, here’s a tip. If you feel like you have to say no, but you can’t bring yourself to say no, especially in the early days, then you need to give yourself time. And the way that I used to do it was “I can’t come back to you right now. I’ve got to look at my diary because there’s a few soft pencils and I need to confirm some things before I can say yes. So, and that prepares them for the no. So, when your ‘no’ comes, it’s much less brutal. You know, you’ve put them in the foot bath before nudging them into the deep end.

Hannah: Oh my god, I love that analogy so much. And I actually said to my daughter, because she has a real problem with quite a lot of, um, most human interaction really. But I said that she’s in burnout and at work they’re always saying, “Oh, could you also come in on Friday?” And she always says yes. And I said, “Look, darling, you need to take a rest. You need less work, not more.” And she says, “Oh, I but I hate that if I can just say yes, they go away. If I say no, you start a, you know, a conversation she doesn’t want to have.” And I used you as an example and I said just say “can I get back to you on that please I need to check”.

And then that’s a kind of soft, like you said, it’s the foot bath. It’s a soft “this may not happen for you” and they’re preparing themselves. And hopefully they are planning the backup plan assuming that you might say no.
Stuart: Yeah there’s the other problem you get with “oh Stu’s flaky”. Well I’m really sorry from your perspective that I didn’t drop everything at a moment’s notice to leap to your economic, financial, physical, you know, are we related? Are you a child of mine? No. So, take a ticket and wait.

Hannah: That’s also known as “I’m not your bitch”

Stuart: Yes.

Hannah: Hannah’s sweary version. Sorry, anybody that’s averse to those words.

Stuart: But it can feel so good saying yes coz the reward is somebody going, “Oh, you’re amazing. Oh, you’re fantastic.” That can feel so validating. You know, it’s the white knight thing. Men do it quite a lot of the time. You know, they swoop in and try and act like they’re Batman. The point of it is it can feel really good to say yes because you get that instant bit of dopamine from everyone going, “Yay!” Stuart said yes. And that is that reinforces the boundary on the wrong side. That’s the wrong way around. That shrinks your boundary because every time you get that little dopamine hit of “yay” where else are you going to get it? They don’t do it out of the blue. They don’t give you a slap on the, you know, I’m talking about not real friends. Not, you know, I’ve got to know who my real friends are. I know the people that I can phone and rely on when I need some help. But the same way I have a boundary the other way that I wouldn’t phone my mate up unless it was an absolute life or death emergency. demand their attention and instant action. That’s not respecting the other person at all.

And so many times you look back on your neurodivergent career as a neurodivergent. And you look and you go, “Yeah, that was them taking advantage. That was them taking the absolute piss and that was me letting them take the absolute piss.” And it’s when you start to recognise your own complicity in the whole thing and that’s when you start to have to have a real conversation with yourself. And so going off a bit of a tangent, the thing that I’ve noticed amongst neurodivergent folk is they’re very naive and childlike. There is a quality that, not every single person obviously, but there is a way of looking at the world which is positive and is great and it gets beat out of you by people taking advantage of you and spotting that naivete and taking the absolutely living piss out of you. And you don’t want to say no because you’re like “oh well I’m being a good bro. I’m being a good human” and then they’re validating that going “yeah you’re amazing, you’re fantastic” and they’re not. You’re only amazing and fantastic all the time you’re saying yes. As soon as you say no, boundary enforced, barred gate. Really sorry it’s locked you cannot come this side of it because it’s a no Yeah, it’s a life sorter. It will sort your life out. It will get rid of all the problem people. All the people whose arms wave around the moment they hear the word no. Yeah, you’re on the list. I can safely ignore you in my life now.

Hannah: That moves us quite nicely on to the next section. Boundaries aren’t about control. It may feel like having boundaries is about control, but actually it’s about sustainability. Because when we protect our time and energy, it protects us and our neurodivergent wiring, right? And boundaries for everybody protect their time and energy, but for us, our time and energy is limited. Um, so it’s even more important. So, it’s about energy preservation, you know, avoiding overload. We know that we often like to, or I don’t know if like’s the right word, we end up spinning 50 plates and then it all comes crashing down quite severely. And a lot of that is I mean, here’s a really quick example. Yesterday morning, I had a really quite important hospital appointment. A woman phoned me in regard to my capacity as a parish counselor. And as she said, have you got time now to talk? Everything in my brain said, “No, Hannah, you need to get ready for the hospital appointment.” And I wanted to get there super early because that’s my MO. I either get there very late or I get there super early. Um, anyway, I didn’t. I said, “Yes, of course.” Chatted away. The whole time I was looking at the clock getting more and more anxious and I got to my appointment about one minute before it was due which was really stressful.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Um and it taught me unfortunately there was a bit of shame that went on there though because I felt stupid you know.

Stuart: Oh Hannah you knew you shouldn’t you know.

Hannah: And if I’d said to this lovely lady “actually I’m a bit up against it at the moment. Can I ping you a message and we can chat tomorrow or something”. She’d have been absolutely fine. So yeah bizarre I’ve gone off on a tangent.

Stuart: No, no, you haven’t. You’ve brought in a relevant point because you have to respect your own ‘no’ first. That’s the key to it. It’s not just saying no. Anyone can say no. It’s just a word. You’ve got to believe it. And you’ve got to believe it when you’re saying no to yourself and being the adult to your inner child.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Like you know there are times even in recent memory just this year I can think I should have been firmer with my own no to myself because I went to that one extra thing in the week and it’s wiped me. And then I have to pay the repercussions for that for three or four days of taking it slow. And learning that lesson is a really valuable lesson because the ‘no’ regulates the energy.

Hannah: Yeah, I can relate to that and it makes a lot of sense. And I think another um one thing that I really struggle with, and I can recognise it but I really struggle with it, is the resentments of not saying no. I get, and I’m embarrassed to admit this really Stu, but I’ll say yes to somebody and as far as they’re concerned I’ve said yes. You know, Hannah’s agreed. That’s fine, she’s all right with that. And then I spend the the inner monologue is like “for fucks sake, they’re really taking the piss out of me. I can’t believe they asked me to do that”. You know, why am I having to do this on my Sunday morning? Because you said yes you lunatic, that’s why you’re having to do it. You had an option at that point. You were at a T- Junction and you could have said no and then you wouldn’t have wanted to kill this person. You know, they asked, you said no and all’s right with the world. But you didn’t, you said yes and here you are on a Sunday morning bitching about somebody that’s oblivious because you said yes. So I’m like “what the hell”. So, I mean it, we know that ‘no’ works in our favor it’s so obvious. I’ve just talked us through that. Um, and yes, it completely works against our energy and yet it’s so hard sometimes. It really is, isn’t it? And that kind of leads us nicely onto point four really on ways we can try and master those no skills a bit more.

Stuart: Yes. So, having a few stock responses, a few scripts, a few tried and trusted strategies in your pocket. I was reading a thing last night on Reddit about somebody whose birthday was completely ruined. It was their day off. They’d planned their day to do nothing, to meet no one, to go nowhere, to preserve their energy, to just lie in bed and do pottering in their own uh space. And there was a knock on the door and it was the downstairs neighbor who barged their way in with a cake and demanded that they did this performative thing. And then she spent an hour there and it completely dysregulated and took took out the energy, you know, completely changed the day for them and their question was “how do I stop this happening, because this person inserts themselves all the time in my life and I don’t want to be an unfriendly person but by the same token this ruined my entire day. I then had a 2hour nap to deal with it.

My suggestion for this is the idea that you put a boundary in, and that it’s irrefutable. You can’t come back to me and negotiate with me. It’s the boundary. So, you have to have a few strategies that make people go, “Oh, oh, that’s the boundary.” So, the first one is the soft one. We’ve just said that. I’ll check my diary. I’m not quite sure. I’m quite busy and I’ve got a few deadlines. I just haven’t got some stuff in my diary and before I trip us both up, you know, that’s a great excuse, especially in business, that uh you want to be sure that you’re going to turn up the best you that is needed. The second one is, and I do get migraines. I get frequent migraines. They are a pain in the backside and they can just wipe me out for days. Especially when I have a cluster of them, two or three, or one that persists. So when I say this, I’m not using this as an excuse, but I have told people, “I can’t . I’ve got a migraine”. And they just go away. They evaporate. And it might not actually be a physical migraine that I’m having, but I know that if I say yes and they come when I’m stressed and it’s not when I’m actually stressed, it’s the moment the stress comes off. So, you know, I’ll be in an emotional crunch situation or a deadline and a load of work on top of me and the moment that the deadline passes, my body goes, “Oh, thank God.” And my brain goes, “Nah, have a migraine.” So, to prevent the migraine, I can say, “Oh, I’m really sorry. I can’t. I’ve got a migraine or I’ve just had a migraine.” Because I don’t want to lie to people, but it just stops the conversation. It stops me having to over explain. Nine times out of 10, I either have had or are in the middle of a migraine, but I’ve used it as a no, just a no.

Hannah: It’s easier for them to understand. It’s more tangible, isn’t it?

Stuart: That’s it. Rather than my energy being completely depleted and if I say yes and turn up, you’re not going to get the best of me and this is going to be a nightmare. It’s so exposing because you constantly have to tell people about your disability and put it in a context which they’re not going to socially shame you for or go “what, you haven’t had a day’s rest well? I haven’t had a…” It’s like this badge of honor isn’t it? “I haven’t had a days rest. I’ve worked all the time. I’ve never slept in four years. Why do you need so much? You know, I’ve got these scripts, these strategies, these approaches that make it tangible for the person. Up until now I have used this one. This one takes a little bit of speed and attack. You can’t deliver this one languidly. So, uh the person asks you to say something uh to do something and you say, “Uh, I would help you, but unfortunately I don’t want to.”

Hannah: Oh my god, that’s gold.
Stuart: Coz their brain goes, “Oh, right. Yeah.” And they don’t analyze it. They just don’t analyze it. They just skip over it. All right. Okay. Thanks, dude. And again, you know, they’re all laughing. But you’re not helping them and you’re walking away. So, it’s like you’ve done a mic drop moment. They’ve all laughed and you’re off the stage. So, think about these things ahead of time and there will be a few repeat offenders in your life. I guarantee you people who don’t understand the concept of a boundary, let alone adhering to one when it’s pointed out. These are the people that you know you should shove out of the aircraft at 30,000 ft.

Hannah: Piss takers. As I like to call them!

Stuart: But yeah, so that would be my top tip in this instance. Think of a few strategies that you can use which are irrefutable. Up to and including, and I’ve said this on so many occasions, right on hearing of my death every single person listening to this is a close personal friend and you can have a day off. There, you go to your boss. Not today, oh no, not in two weeks time, no, it’s a funeral. I’m going to do that. You don’t have to on the day. You don’t. Your intention to go is all that is needed at the time. I’m a terrible person.

Hannah: Oh my god, that’s brilliant. If you’re terrible, I don’t want to be anything else. So, next really is Yeah, I struggle with this. Saying no to yourself.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Um it’s often the hardest boundary really because so many of us carry so much self-imposed pressure. These kinds of unrealistic expectations, perfectionism, ‘need to do more’ pressure, you know, we’re never quite, and I’m I’m not saying we’re all like this, by the way. You may not be nodding along to this, but I certainly am. And I can only speak for myself on this really, but just that kind of it has to be perfect because anything less and I’m left wondering what if, but I could have done that bit and you know, and it it tortures me like a horribly toxic brain worm for forever and ever and ever. Um, and it’s bloody exhausting and it’s so relatable for me.

Stuart: Yeah. My only problem with that is if I’m like that before the project starts, I’m much more likely to say no. If I realise I can’t reach the impossible perfection of the shining example of what I need to do to produce, then I’m much more likely to say no. Because it’s like, why do something halfarsed? And unfortunately that can exclude you from doing some really interesting projects, or things, because like in your head it’s never going to live up to it. So you back out of it almost.

Hannah: Yeah. 100% that. And I think you know that perfectionism leads to a, or can lead to, a real kind of ‘every task turns into a giant monumental project’. You know over complicating and overplanning these things because we’re desperately trying to avoid mistakes or we feel more in control if we plan them out that way. But actually then you’re making, you know, a sort of mountain out of a molehill for some of these things.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Um, also excessive commitments. I am a joke in my local village. I’m like the person that’s permanently got their hand up because it won’t go down. Um, and you know that I do, although I joke about it, it’s not quite that bad. I would say no if I had to. And actually the truth is I really enjoy getting involved in local projects and stuff. But the problem is although my intentions are good when I’m saying yes, you know, then I wonder why a lot of the time or I can be overwhelmed and that’s not ideal at all.

Stuart: That’s why I recommend a 4 day work week because then Friday is your buffer.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. And I am starting to do that now and it does make a real difference.

Stuart: I’m not the best at it at all times, but when I am energy depleted. That’s when I know I have to enforce it more than most because I genuinely do not wish to burn out as hard. I’m sure I’m going to have brownouts. I’m sure I’m going to have off days and weird things and it just comes with the territory. And as you age, your energy becomes even more of a scarce resource. But my energy dependence, in other words, my life requires me to have very good boundaries. Otherwise, I’m either 100 miles an hour or stop.

Hannah: yes,

Stuart: And whilst I am all gas and no brakes, as the colonials like to say, I do respect my own energy now a lot more than I used to. I will stop working in the garden at 4:00, whereas before I would push myself till 7-8 until Gemma’s coming out going, “Are you going to stop anytime?”

Hannah: Stu’s face down on the lawn. Yeah. Jem’s trying to drag him back into the..

Stuart: To be fair, running has taught me a lot about conserving my energy because when you run a long distance, you don’t sprint to start with. And you realise that the energy you burn in mile 26 has got to be the same as you burn in mile one. It doesn’t get easier. So, you know, conserving your energy and pacing yourself, I think in your life with the word ‘no’ being used very liberally.

Hannah: So here’s an idea as the sort of end of this section that I’m doing: “rest guilt”. So I really struggle with severe guilt if I’m resting and I think well I don’t think I know that the reason I keep saying I’ll do it is to put my hand up for a million things is because I know that I need to be busy all the time. I mean, I’ve told you this before, Stu, and I’ve undoubtedly mentioned it on one of our podcasts, but I won’t even have a bath because it feels like a waste of life minutes. I lie in, and this is the honest to God truth. The last bath I had, I had to because my physio said, “You really need to soak in warm water.” Got in the bath. I felt angry while I was pouring like it was the Victorian times. I felt angry while I was running the bath. Then I thought, “Oh, I wonder how long I can stay in it or how short a time I can stay in it and still get some kind of benefit from the warm water.” Anyway, within, I’m guessing, about 3 minutes, I started to feel really angry. I was like, “What am I doing?” Literally just lying in water when I could be doing stuff. And so, I got out and it, you know, that’s because I really struggled to switch off um because for me, for whatever reasons resting feels lazy.. You know, I 100% know that resting is not lazy. It’s completely essential. Um, but for some reason I have this feeling that it’s lazy, unproductive, undeserved. We’ve talked about that before, haven’t we? It’s not a reward for being busy.

Stuart: Busy-ness is a modern plague, and it’s played out every weekend across every single child’s life in this country. I saw somebody the other day, their daughter had been swimming, obviously been swimming, she had wet hair and then she was coming out of the swimming pool in a tutu and they were saying, “Oh, off to dance class now.” And it’s like, I get it. You know, little ones need exercise and have hobbies and interests. And I’m not saying you should sit at home and do nothing, but the constant “we’re doing this thing and then we’re doing this next thing, and then we’re doing this next thing, and there’s this other thing”. Hands up. Anyone who’s got a diary with an entry in it that just says hold with nothing planned. Literally nothing planned. Anyone? Anyone present? Anyone?

Hannah: Just you.

Stuart: Just me. Just me. Yeah, I will put hold in my diary with nothing specific to do that day because one, my brain will do something that day. It just will. But two, it gives me permission to not do something. Especially when I look ahead in my diary and I go, “Oh, Christ. I’ve got four days of back-to-back meetings and driving places and that’s just going to deplete me. Well, I need to be energized before I go. I can’t go to that off the back of a weekend of digging in the garden. So, I’ll have a Sunday off. Just do nothing. Feet up doing nothing. And that’s me saying no to myself. No, Stuart. No, you have to respect the fact that you’ve got five days of very energetic back-to-back business stuff.

Hannah: Absolutely vital. And I think that leads us quite nicely onto the next point, which is a kind of deeper dive. I touched on resentment earlier and this next point really is a deeper dive on resentment.

Stuart: Yeah. It’s a useful tool in some respects. It’s useful because if you start to feel resentment then examine why. It’s not just you’re resenting the person. You’re probably resenting the situation at its base. And that’s probably because you’ve said yes when you needed to say no. And resentment can creep in really quickly when you’ve got no energy because you just start feeling negative because you’ve got no energy. You’re like, “Oh, I’m tired. I’ve got to go and do this thing. I don’t want to go and do this thing.” And so, you know, you start to shut down. My auditory processing goes. I have hard time putting what’s in my head into actual words. It gets worse when I’m tired. It gets worse when I’m hungry. So, years ago, I worked with a guy and he said, “Never try to have an important conversation with someone who’s cold, tired, and hungry. And those are wise words coming out of the mouth of this idiot. Oh, he was. Just don’t take my word for it. But Stuart, we’ve all got our unique special gifts. Yes, we have. And I’m sure he did. But..

Hannah: ..his was being an idiot.

Stuart: His was a special gift. Yeah, he got up early and practiced.

Hannah: He had a natural ability.

Stuart: Yeah, he had a natural ability or two, but every morning he’d get up and he’d ‘stupid’ for Britain.

Hannah: I must be an idiot today in the mirror.
Stuart: But if the no produces unwanted outbursts or negative behaviors in the other person, unwarranted outside of the the size of the no, then that’s a red flag. That really for me is a red flag on the human. Um because if they can’t respect my no, they won’t respect my yes. They just won’t respect any of my boundaries. They’ll just stomp all over it. So therefore, you are on the watch list, matey. Um, and that becomes a problem when it’s your boss! Made redundant three times in three years. There’s a pattern there, isn’t there? There really is a Let’s look at the root cause of this year. Was it the three bosses or was it you?

Hannah: It was the bosses. Absolutely.

Stuart: No, I just, I went through a period where I just had the hardest PDA. Um, because everyone was attacking me, it felt like my oppositional defiance and my pathological demand avoidance were flaming red hot and if anybody asked me to do anything, it was pretty much an automatic no, which was detrimental. You know, I’m not saying be that guy. That guy was not a happy guy. But by the same token, you have to conserve your energy and understand for yourself where I’m going to have to say no. Why is that? I’ve got a lot coming up. I’ve got a lot on and I just need that day to prepare for it. They don’t know what the preparation is. Feet up on the sofa with a gin in your hand. Good for you. You know, put on a funny movie, sit with a fam, stroke a cat, all of the above together.

Hannah: Yeah, exactly.

Stuart: That’s my preparation. And that’s why I said no. Because if I don’t do that and I do your thing, when it comes to my thing on Monday, I won’t give the best of me. And those people are paying me for the best of me, not Stuart turning up half arsed. And there’s quite a lot of the times I’ll say no because I just know I’m not going to do a good job even if I’ve got the time to do it. But it’s not just the time, it’s just not the physical presence, it’s also the use of your energy. So when you say yes, you’re agreeing to take a dollop of your life energy and spend it on their project or their thing. And that’s great and that’s fine. And I’m not saying don’t be a useful, helpful human, but know that once you’ve spent that energy, you have to recover it from somewhere coz it’s gone. So, where are you getting it back from? Resting up. Well, yeah, but when? And that’s the point. Put hold in your diary. Big hold, big red line around it. Doesn’t matter. Somebody could come to me. If I’ve got hold in my diary, somebody can come to me and go, “We’re going to the beach. We’re going to, uh, pleasure Beach. We’re going to then go on to do this thing and all expenses paid all the rest.” No”. Oh, but Stuart, why

Hannah: FOMO? Stu, how can you not get fear of missing out?

Stuart: No, they’re missing out by not having me there.

Hannah: I love that so much.

Stuart: Everyone’s looking at their life through the wrong end of the telescope. You are where you are. You’re in the right place. Why? Because you’re there. If you’re not, go somewhere else.

Hannah: Oh my god. Brilliant. So that’s fabulous. So the next point really, is that we’ve said no is a complete sentence, but actually sometimes in reality you do find yourself having to give a little bit more than that two-letter word, although that is like life goals right there. So, the next goal is to create a “no” without overexplaining. You don’t owe them your life story to put in a boundary. You know, I feel like I need to say that again out loud just for my own benefit. We don’t owe them our life story. “No, I can’t. Sorry, I can’t do that. All of those”. Or just “no”. shorter the response, the better chance you’ve got of not being dragged into or forced into those long over explanations. And then, ideally you avoid those kinds of defensive justifications. The goal really is to avoid terrible excuses. I remember growing up, and I think I now realise my mom had the same issues as I have with this stuff. Growing up, my mom would say if I felt a bit peaky or probably hung over if I was sort of late-teens. Um, and I’d say to mum, you know, “I don’t want to go to work. I’m not feeling it or my throat’s sore”, whatever. And she’d say, “Well, tell them that your nan died and that you’re all a bit upset.” And at the time, I was like, “Genius, they’re not going to question that.” But now, as an adult, I’m like, “What the what the fuck? You can’t make up random relatives who have died because you don’t want to go to work.”

Stuart: Yeah, you can. I just told you.

Hannah: Then you have to follow up that story.

Stuart: That’s why you don’t pick a close relative. It’s a friend. There is no limit to the number of friends you’re allowed to have and they’re all tragic in their deaths.

Hannah: I’ve been there. But then you get caught out. You know, if you’ve got an ADHD brain, then someone’s like, “Oh, you know, how’s your nan now?” And I’m like, “What?”

Stuart: That’s why you don’t choose your..

Hannah: “You said your nan went to hospital?”. Oh god. Yeah, she’s fine. Yeah, but you said she was in the ICU. Oh shit. Yeah, I did, didn’t I?

Stuart: So, this is the thing. If you get good at lying, you’re good at everything.

Hannah: Oh my god.

Stuart: There’s a top tip there.

Hannah: I was just about to say just tell the truth because then you don’t have to. But, you know.

Stuart: Yes. But then you end up with “no, I don’t want to”.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: I would like to help you, but I don’t want to. And it should be enough. That’s what’s frustrating because actually the goal of these situations is to reduce cognitive labor, right? It’s a massive mental effort and emotional processing.
Hannah: Yeah, to have to kind of fabricate, or create rather, this ridiculous scenario where actually it should be that simple. Could you do this? Could you feed my cat next week? I’m sorry I can’t. The end.

Stuart: All right. This is a confession. This is a business confession. So, you know, when you send somebody “we should have a meeting”, I shape my week before I will suggest that. And so, I’ll go into my diary booking system and I’ll put big blocks of hold in because if I’ve got a meeting in the morning I don’t want another meeting that morning so the rest of the morning is blocked out. I could have another meeting but two back-to-back meetings plus the workload for that day don’t forget it just it’s just too much

Hannah: That is such good advice because actually one of my consultants said that I should not be doing more than one big thing a day. And by big thing they meant a meeting. If you’ve got an intense meeting, a couple of hours, then you know that the rest of the day you need to just be chilling at home.

Stuart: Oh, if I got an invite to a three-hour meeting.

Hannah: That’s a hard nope, Stu, isn’t it?

Stuart: There would be some ‘I’m not going to be there’ for the first hour or the last hour, your pick. Or the middle hour. I can go away and come back again.

Hannah: The first time I saw you in a meeting, and obviously you were my mate before then, but the first time I was in a meeting with you. I was literally, I hope this doesn’t embarrass you. I apologise if it does. I was just in awe. Obviously you’re really professional, but the way that you boundaried your time and when it got to a point where it was the kind of you know which of us are going to put their hands up and you were incredible. Because you were just like, “Yeah, I can’t commit to anything like that at the moment.” And you had your whole list of things you did have to do. So, I just thought, “Oh, that’s a life goal. Meanwhile, I’m like, “What? You want me to go around to your house and feed your rabbits and cut your grass?” And I was just like, “Yes, yes, yes.”

Stuart: So, they talk about the double empathy problem, and we will discuss it in depth perhaps in one future episode. But this is the problem. You completely and immediately put yourself in the other person’s shoes and go, “Oh god, not having your cat fed, that would completely dysregulate me if I was in your shoes. So, I want to take that away from you. So, I’ll say yes.” And even though it means I’m going to burn through so many spoons extra this week, I will take that on. And although they think you’ve done them a small favor, it disproportionately leverages your time out of the boundaries that you need it to be within and your energy. And that’s the problem. And it stacks because it’s not “just”. It’s the word “just”. Can you “just” feed my cat? Yeah, fine. And then somebody says, can you just give me a lift, too? Oh, could you just move that meeting? Could you “just”, and everybody’s asking for “just, just, just”. And you’re giving of yourself. And that’s all extra even just the cognitive energy. I have real problems with short notice changes. If I know that short notice change is possible then short notice change will be fine. It’s short notice change without any context or understanding that is an expectation for me to then do something that has been thrust upon me. That’s likely to get the biggest amount of push back and resentment. This is the strange thing about this entire condition. Might wake up one day, get something thrown at me that’s a last minute change. I take it in my stride. It’s not even a problem. Another day and it’s a hand grenade. You know, somebody’s thrown a live hand grenade at me and I’m, you know, it’s going to depend on what’s happened the days before, my energy levels, how hungry I am, how tired I am, how much sleep I got. Um, there’s a number of dominoes that can fall that can make it worse than it actually presents as to the other person and they don’t see any of that and it’s like I’m managing a three- ring circus and you say can you just look after can you just

Hannah: So frustrating and a lot of us really rely on that routine and knowing what we’ve got coming up and you know for somebody I look at my week as a whole and I kind of think, oh, Wednesday is a bit rough, but Thursday is nice. And then if somebody suddenly changes, the nice chill Thursday suddenly becomes a chaos Thursday. I often can’t cope with that. Anyway, I think that leads us quite nicely into our final point, our final section.

Stuart: So when you enforce a boundary, you’re effectively saying this is who I am. This is defining in some regard of who you are, what you’re willing to do, not do, put up with, the way you treat yourself or others, all of those things. And I think it’s particularly hard for people who are masking because is it you saying yes or no or is it your mask? And are you doing it for the right reasons? So, it can be completely disorientating when you suddenly take off your mask. And this is where I think the resentment comes in. The social mask says yes because society says you need to be a helpful, productive member of society and your friends and relatives are the people you say yes to and you help and I genuinely believe that. But unfortunately, it gets weaponised against you. Your mask is weaponised against you because the social obligation of yes is asked of you and the inside creature goes, “No, no, there’s nothing worse than having to turn up in a suit on that day in that weather with those people and have to mask hard for four hours at a social event. and you say yes anyway and then you get to the event and you have to slap on a fake smile and plow through the shit one more time. As one of my favorite comedians said, if you know, put it in the comments. Um and and that’s the point is you take the mask off and you make an honest appraisal of it and you have to be able to say no because otherwise there’s no point in not having a mask that you’re demasking to you to yourself as much as you’re anyone else and you have to understand the harsh reality that comes when you say yes. And if you don’t, then you can’t be surprised when stacking up too many obligations that your social obligations that you’ve said yes to is any wonder you’re going burn out. You don’t have the energy for it. You don’t have the budget. You don’t have it. It doesn’t turn up in the same way. My energy turns up in 12-hour lumpy sessions over the course of a month. And I have to acknowledge that that’s how my brain wants to do things. and I’m along for the ride. And if I try to fight it, I become an unhappier person. And nobody wants to live an unhappy life. So to stay regulated, I had to learn the word no. Just to wrap it up, I think here’s the phrase. I heard this phrase many, many years ago. This isn’t my phrase, but I heard this phrase and I kind of use it now and it’s a very simple phrase to decide whether or not to do something. It’s either a hell yeah or a fuck no.

Hannah: Yes. Amen to that.

Stuart: So, that’s our episode. Hannah, what takeaways would you like to underline and tell people to go away and remember?

Hannah: Wow, there’s so much good stuff in there.

Stuart: Go and listen to it again. Go and listen to it again.

Hannah: I’m going to do that. I guess remembering that boundaries are self-preservation. You know, protecting your time, energy, and capacity is not selfish. And I think that’s often the thing that stops us doing it. You don’t want to look like the selfish mean person, you know, and people use that against us sometimes. Sometimes yes, they’re used to the yes or what’s happened? What’s wrong with you? Why are you now becoming mean? Also, the next point, really feeling guilty, and we often do, does not mean that something’s wrong. I think it’s just a conditioning for a lot of us that we are meant to feel responsible for everyone else’s comfort and feelings, but it’s not real and we need to remember that. Also, scripts. Yes, Stu talked you, talked us, talked all of us through some script ideas. Have your stock responses ready. Um, don’t forget the pause. You know, the kind of “can I get back to you on that?” It gives both of you some breathing space. Gives you a chance to go away and make up some elaborate story about your dog running away.

Stuart: My granddad, thinking about it he was the spreader. My mom’s dad. He was definitely the spreader. I got it from both grandparents and both parents. I’ve got super strain. Quadruple. So, get it all in him. Get him all the six. And uh his was Uh, “I’ve got to go. I’ve got things to do”. He would never be drawn on what those things were. No, I’ve just got things to do. What? What things? Just lots of things. He’d be gone by the time you got the question out. Can you buy I’ve got to go. Loads of stuff to do. Stuff to do. Things to do.

Hannah: Be more Stu’s grandad’s catchphrase! Um, and also a really good one for me and I need to remember this. Feeling resentful often means that you are overwhelmed because you’ve committed to something. You’re feeling resentful after the event, which is 99% of my life. And it means you’re overwhelmed. That’s why you’re feeling resentful that you’ve committed to something that you don’t actually have the capacity for. Um, and lastly, saying no builds selfrust. You know, who is going to advocate for you the best? Well, you. If even you can’t advocate for yourself and your own well-being, then there’s not much bloody hope, is there really?

Stuart: Well, I don’t want to give people shame and guilt over their inability through social conditioning, through life, through just general, you know, everyone dog piles on you when you’re in that. When you’re the only “no” in a room full of “yeses” or the social pressure, the peer pressure, unfortunately. Ah, it doesn’t wash with me. I just don’t have that. I don’t have that social shame. That’s one of the problems with it for me is I don’t know where that boundary is. And so sometimes I’m on the wrong side of that. Of course, you know, standing there all on my own going, “Why is everybody staring at me?” I call it being out on the pier. It’s like I’ve run down the social beach. Come on, everyone. Everyone’s following Stu and then he turns around and realises they stopped on the beach and I’ve run out on this massive great big pier and I’m staring back at them going, “Why didn’t anyone follow me?” And they’re all shaking their heads going, “I don’t know what he’s doing.” Pier boy.

Hannah: Pier boy. Oh my goodness. Sounds like a brilliant superhero. I wonder what Pier Boy would do. What would his special power be?

Stuart: Oh, Bingo.

Hannah: Yes. Full House constantly!

Stuart: That would be his name. Full House. License to Bingo in the sea.

Hannah: We need to go away and create this. We need to build a comic all about pier boy. Bingo boy.

Stuart: And his sidekick, Raffle.

Hannah: Raffle. Oh my god. Oh, this is genius. If anybody steals that idea, we’ll know where you got it from.

Stuart: The super villain Tom Bola. See what I did there? Hello, Tom Bola here. I’ve come to sell you some dodgy goods.

Hannah: Magnificent.

Stuart: Should we do some quick tips before we disappear down our rabbit hole? So, these are really quick and we’ve hit you over the head with why ‘no’ matters, but here we go. So, uh, pause before responding. Just because somebody’s asked you a question doesn’t mean to say you can’t put in a little pause. I need to check the diary. I just need to check in with my wife, my partner, my children, my boss, you know, whatever you need to do to give yourself a little fire break. Do not feel the pressure of that social immediacy because you can always follow up later and say yes or you can follow up later via email and say unfortunately that’s not going to work for me. I also find in a business setting when it’s an obligation offering an alternative I can’t do it on that day or I can’t do an in-person meeting or you know whatever. Why don’t we meet on Zoom or you know give them an alternative. Throw them a bone. Um next use short scripts. Those can really help. Have little shortcuts, little things in your head. You know I will use I’ve got a migraine to denote that my brain just won’t work for that day. That’s not a day my brain’s willing to work on. That also means you can keep track of your energy because that ultimately is how I manage my life. I don’t spend a financial budget. I spend and have an energy budget. And if things in my week are, you know, coming along that I’m having to say yes to on top of what I have to do, then what I have to do won’t get done because I won’t have the energy to do it. Finally, let the guilt pass. Get good at saying no and not feeling bad that you haven’t been able to help or facilitate or agree with, but you can’t be yes every single time. And sometimes it’s good to just say no. Just to let them know, yeah, I’m not just a yes man. No. Why? I don’t have to give you a reason, but unfortunately on that day, I’m laying in bed doing nothing anyway. And finally, review your commitments regularly. Look back at your last month. Get to the end of the month and take a little stock take. How are you feeling? Are you feeling regulated, disregulated, tired, wiped, exhausted. Are you using those words a lot to describe yourself? If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always got. So, if you look back through the month and you see in your diary way too many things, then you have to have a word with yourself. And also put in your diary when you’ve said a yes and you actually would have been better off saying no. Either retrospectively you look back and go that was a yes that should have been a no. Note it for next time. But also look for the places where you could have inserted a no and been better off at the end of the month with no detriment to yourself. So things like going to a social obligation maybe after work. I know it can feel really great to go out with people or it might be the worst thing in the world. You’re not doing yourselves any favors if you say yes because somebody’s put your arm up. Oh, it’s Christmas. Let’s go out for drinks. Yeah, it might be Christmas but my energy doesn’t know that. Anyway, that’s it. That’s our episode. That’s all of the information we’ve got for you. Uh if you’ve got any tips, hints, suggestions, or thoughts with regards to preserving your energy, painting your boundaries with indelible ink, and uh ensuring that people respect them, then let us know. Send uh anything you’ve got to us, hostsodcast.com. Um and like, share, subscribe, click all of the things that need clicking. Send them to people if you think that this has resonated and they need to hear this. Hannah, any last words?

Hannah: Last words. Uh, no, no final words.

Stuart: Your final words.

Hannah: Oh my god. Is this literally like the last things I’m ever going to say?

Stuart: And that’s why you’re in the ejector seat.

Hannah: I thought the seat looked different, Stuart. That sounds dark, doesn’t it? Um, no, no. That’s it. Nothing exciting at all.

Stuart: Brilliant.

Hannah: Um, next week we’ve got a blog for you. It’s a Lucky Dip blog. Who knows what it’s going to be. Exciting. Exciting. I’m trying to build some momentum. What will it be? What will it be? Who knows? But it will be awesome.

Stuart: It will be. It’ll be great. It will be a great blog. And um if you’ve got any questions that you want to ask, then great. Ask us the questions and uh we’ll happily happily help with any resources that we either have or uh that we’ve seen and can signpost for you. So, thank you very much for listening to another episode of the podcast and uh we’ll see you next time. All the very best. Goodbye.

Hannah: Amazing. Goodbye.

Eps 33 – Success Feels Weird When You’re Used to Struggling

Success is supposed to feel good. That’s the story we’re all sold, anyway.

Work hard. Push through. Build the thing. Reach the goal. Then finally relax.

Except for many neurodivergent business owners, success can feel surprisingly uncomfortable when struggle has become familiar.

In this episode, we explore why achieving the things we’ve worked so hard for doesn’t always bring the relief we expected. We talk about crisis productivity, adrenaline dependency, perfectionism, moving goalposts, and the strange experience of reaching a milestone only to immediately focus on the next problem instead of recognising how far we’ve come.

We also discuss why visibility can feel emotionally exposing, why receiving praise or recognition isn’t always as comfortable as people imagine, and how years of operating in survival mode can make calm, stability and success feel unfamiliar.

Because sometimes the challenge isn’t building something successful.

Sometimes the challenge is learning how to live with success without immediately trying to earn it all over again.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:31 – Topic of the Week – Success Feels Weird When You’re Used to Struggling
00:00:46 – Topic introduction – Exploring challange of success, and feral badgers
00:02:24 – Disclaimer – plan for the best, expect the worse, what happens when plans work ?
00:03:37 – We explore why ‘survival mode’ feels familiar – the safety of chaos.
00:04:28 – Stuart’s brain needs to define “success” – and a note about today’s topic
00:06:24 – Hannah’s “goals” define her anti-hustle culture “success”
00:08:28 – Example of survival mode being familiar and comfortable
00:10:48 – Overfunctioning becoming our identity & why we feel worthwhile
00:12:28 – Unreasonable self-expectations and over-delivery excuses your Oddness
00:15:59 – Your worth should not be based on your “success” and your wins
00:18:21 – Shouting about your wins can feel un-authentic, and irrelevant because, NEXT!
00:20:45 – Protestant work ethic, work harder, do more, no rest, ever onward!
00:21:55 – The discomfort of receiving – Link to Birthdays EPISODE
00:23:43 – Awkwardly receiving praise, FLIPPIN G THE SCRIPT…
00:24:42 – The struggle to ask for, or accept ANY help.
00:26:52 – Summary of this section …
00:27:19 – Success level up – new unexpected fears unlocked!
00:30:17 – When is enough enough? WHen do you stop trying to achieve MORE!
00:30:55 – IMPOSTER’S SYNDROME ENTERS THE CHAT – staying grounded helps
00:33:00 – When our business becomes more visible, it raises the emotional stakes
00:35:15 – RSD raises the emotional stakes whe you “go public” with your thoughts
00:37:23 – ND is woven into your energy – is your “success” sustainable long term?
00:41:30 – Are you constantly “almost there”? Is your perfectionism running the show?
00:42:48 – How to overcome perfectionism, Stu’s tolerance tool!
00:44:37 – The tyranny of perfectionism and the addic tion of productivity
00:48:07 – Learning to tolerate the calm
00:52:20 – Hannah takeaways and insights – your worth is more than you productivty
00:55:28 – Stu’s top tips and thoughts – celebrate wins and use buffer day s FTW!
00:57:53 – Thank you and goodbye
00:58:50 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

Link to Podcast about surviving celebrations

Link to blog post on undervaluing your services 

Link to the Neuro-inclusive Manifesto

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – A range of resources for neurodivergent business owners.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

Stuart: Hello and welcome to another Business Oddcast. I’m Stuart Morrison, and with me today is the fabulous..

Hannah: Very enthusiastic Hannah Logan. Hey Hannah. 

Stuart: And we are your hosts for the business podcast and we’re gonna dive straight into this week’s topic. Uh, what is this week’s topic Hannah?

Hannah: Well, Stuart, this week’s topic is “success feels weird when you’re used to struggling”. That feels like a loaded topic, doesn’t it? But, let me explain a little more. So,here we go.

Firstly, I won’t go off on a massive tangent this early on in our podcast, but success obviously is a very personal thing. You know, we all have different views on what success looks like for us. But I think one thing that a lot of us have in common is the idea that when we get there, whatever that success goal is, we feel like everything’s going to suddenly be calm, secure, emotionally stable, that might be overreaching on my part. I don’t think I’ll ever be emotionally stable. That’s a different podcast.

Um, but actually when we do arrive there, if it does arrive, then our nervous system often reacts like someone’s just released a feral badger into the office. We’re waiting for that kind of, you know, lying on the beach with  your feet on a sun lounger moment and actually it’s just utter bloody chaos.

Stuart: Mai tais on the beach.

Hannah: Mai tais on the beach every day. Yeah. And then we get there and people are getting bitten. Cups of tea are falling over. Um, somebody brought a feral badger into the office. Why did they do that?

Stuart: It’s feral badger Thursday. I love the idea of a Feral badger. Oh my god. Bring your badger to work day. That didn’t go down well, Steve. Take it off the ideas board. Never bring it back.

Hannah: Um, so this episode is basically about the kind of strange emotional side of success. 

Stuart: Now before we get into the abyss, um, I’ve seen this from both sides. And I’m going to give a disclaimer. Anything I say in this episode, which sounds a bit like me bragging, is me bragging. Um, don’t confuse it for a humble brag. No, it will be an actual brag.

But the point to it is these are things that occur to you only kind of after. When you’re in the midst of it, it doesn’t feel like a prank or a weird thing, but just success brings with it some odd outcomes. And I’m hoping that we are going to get deep into that coz this is the thing when you get into business, you plan for the best and expect the worst.

And hopefully if you’ve got your head around you, you’ll mitigate your risks as much as possible and deal with any of those problems that you foresee coming up. But here’s the thing, when the plan actually works, that brings with it a whole new set of mind game problems. So I’m really hoping that we can overshare and get into it and uh you know feral badges are optional by the way.

Hannah: Okay. So the first talking point really is the idea that survival mode becomes familiar to us. So I think for a lot of us we have, or many ND people have, grown up constantly adapting, masking, overcompensating, firefighting and that’s chaos right? But that’s become normal to us. That is our norm for a lot of us.

So when things finally calm down, we kind of hit that success, then the nervous system doesn’t recognise it as safety. Safety for a lot is chaos. So when things calm down and the nervous system doesn’t recognise it as safety, it sometimes just feels unfamiliar and uncomfortable or like something must be wrong.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Does that make sense?

Stuart: It does. Here’s where my brain has stopped. And

Hannah: I watched it stop.

Stuart: It did. Thank you. Thank you. When you’re defining yourself by the success metric, you have to take a very big step backwards and say, “What is my success here?”

Because tactically that, you know, success throwing up a website, brilliant. You know, customers are really happy, great numbers moving in the right direction, brilliant. But unless you actually feel like you’re safe and you’re regulated and your energy is in an abundant enough supply for it to be useful in your life and you are not in an energy deficit. That for me is how I determine success. Not by any other metric, not a number, not not a bank balance, not the car on your drive.

And I want everybody who’s listening to this to realize that your success metric can be getting up in the morning and and getting through the day that that can that if, and I’m thinking about a particular friend right now going through a bit of it, and I just know that there’s a lot of people out there who have been flattened recently by events. Just put it in events.

And I want you to know that if getting through the day with your sanity intact and maybe you have a shower life goals, you know, and and I say that with a rice smile because I have been that soldier. So, don’t beat yourself up if you hear any of what comes next about success and think that metric isn’t what I am measuring my own success or in the inverse of that failure. Of course, um some people might listen to the things that I crow about and go “loser”.

So, you know, for me, my success, I mean, maybe maybe the word goals is really better than success because

Hannah: yes

Stuart: For me my success for my business is to get to a point where you know it doesn’t stress me at all. Well that is a nana that I’ll probably never reach because I have the kind of brain that craves that stress and drama. So I think I’m not built that way but um or you know work life balance you have more time with your loved ones less time you know or or a goal could be not doing any emails over the weekend. That’s a problem for me. So, it it’s all so

Hannah: boundaries. Personal boundaries. I know. I suck at the boundaries. And this is an improved version, St.

Stuart: Well, it’s only getting better then.

Hannah: At least we know improvement is possible. Let’s look at that. I’m the poster girl for “It Can Get Better”. I feel like I need to break into that ‘things can only get better’ song at this point.

Stuart: You’re reminding us of Tony Blair. Terrible tune. Terrible tune.

Hannah: Um, so yeah, you know, I say success, but we don’t mean in a kind of hustle. culture. God, oh my goodness, if I have to read on LinkedIn one more time “the first time I got my six figure fat calorie”, fuck off! No one cares about your six figure salary. I said calorie, didn’t I? Salary!]

Stuart: You’re on a roll. I wasn’t going to interrupt. 

Hannah: Here’s my goal today to learn how to speak properly.

Stuart: Yay! Success diction.

Hannah: That’s literally my success goal. Get a full sentence out! So, Um, so yeah, I mean the rest of this podcast is based on whatever that success is for you and, like Stuart said, some days, some weeks it will literally be get up, make sure you eat and drink enough that day, you know, and maybe get one email done. Or you might have a day or a week or a month where success is actually going “I think I’ve got the power to get a new client in this month” or you know what I mean? It can be little tiny goals all the way along.

Um, here’s a handful of examples of what it can actually look like. This idea of survival mode becomes familiar to us. Um, you know, I wonder how many people listening have been here. This is a common thing for me, adrenaline dependency. So, feeling emotionally unsettled when things are calm or stable because my nervous system, this isn’t a great thing by the way, my nervous system has become so used to operating in stress mode that actually a lot of the time I need that adrenaline. I’m dependent on it to get shit done.

Um, not all the time, I should quickly add. I’m not that dysfunctional, but there are times where I engineer a stressful situation to get something done because my brain is “noping” on every other level and I know that a deadline’s, you know, ahead of me.

Stuart: Oh, it’s the cortisol/adrenaline, you know, aligning the tension between those two things. 

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. That taps into the kind of, you know, crisis mode. Productivity, same thing really, but focus and productivity suddenly kick in when there’s that, like we just said, real deadlines, pressure, because my brain certainly has learned to associate that adrenaline with action. Like my brain’s like, where’s that ‘slightly stressy’, you know, ‘want to cry’ part of this situation, otherwise my brain is drinking that Mai tai on a lounger.

Stuart: And sometimes you need the physical tension

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Whether those are problems with my business, my customers, my projects, whatever. And it’s an absolute pleasure to have these problems in some regards coz the problems that could fill your life could be 10 times worse. And I’m sure there are people out there who are in much worse situations.

The point to it is that once you relax into “oh, okay, every day is going to have its stresses”. Every time you stop thinking that at some point you’re going to firefight your way out of the forest and it’s just going to be a clear meadow. And it’s like, no, no, no. It’s all forest. It’s always a forest. You’ve just been given an axe. So, get cutting.

Hannah: So true. Oh my goodness. Right. Overfunctioning becomes our identity. So, yeah, I am so guilty of this. I’m so used to even as a child, I’d be the one, the capable one, you know, the reliable child. I mean, there wasn’t much competition between my other siblings. Sorry if any of you are listening. I just needed to be able to feed myself to be the winner in that. Sorry, it’s not true. I’m trying to troll my brothers through the podcast.

Um, but I was so used to being the capable one or the fixer, the person that keeps everything going. Oh, this hits so hard for me. I have to, as I’m saying this I realise this is an awful thing to say. I have to overfunction to feel worthwhile. Just getting the base level stuff done. I’m at a point in my business, in my life, where that’s not enough for me to feel enough. Does that make sense? This feels like a therapy session. Sorry.

Stuart: Let it out.

Hannah: So, you know, a lot of us do feel that unless we’re overfunctioning, going above and beyond, not really boundarying our own time or our own kind of capabilities, then we don’t feel like we’re actually achieving. Um, so the idea that we would hit our goal and then lie back down on the lounger doesn’t work for me.

Stuart: Oh, yeah. It’s not that you just reach your goal, you obliterate it and smash it and turn it into everybody else’s crying mess.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: I would give a recent example, but there’d be too many people that would recognise and realise what I was talking about, so I can’t. But The point to it is the overall goal is not the goal. The goal is to exceed one’s own expectations of oneself which are already and we spoke about this quite recently but it’s you put your expectations there because if you don’t for some reason the problems that you bring, and I use the word problems in inverted commas, are more easily excused because you’re exceeding by 20% everybody else and you’re put up with and the oddity that you bring is acceptable when it comes with that over-production. That over-delivery.

Hannah: Um I’m just sitting here trying not to cry because the amount of times I’ve done that just to retain people as I thought of as friends and they weren’t. 

Stuart: They just tolerated me because I was organised. I showed up. I did the thing. I was good at everything that I turned my hand to. And you suddenly realise that you’re tolerated because of it. And in a base sense, if the tribe tolerates you, you get food and shelter.

But life’s not about being tolerated. Life’s about connection and genuine understanding of another person’s viewpoint and how they experience the world. I just can’t get it over enough how ostracising it can be that you define your own existence by your abilities in relation to what you can do for the group. And you know at some level that they only accept you because of that.

I don’t know if it just smacks. It really does. And to know that I look back on myself and go you did it there and you did it there and you did it there. It’s not respecting your own boundaries. That’s it again. It’s boundaries. It’s just boundaries Hannah. Everything’s boundaries.

Hannah: It really is. It really is. And I think you know I can completely relate to what you’re saying and it is incredibly sad and,Yeah. There’s various points in my life and I’d imagine a lot of people listening as like “yep yep yep” going through their lives. And I think all we can do is what we’re doing. We’re putting the message out there to encourage people to recognise those toxic situations and get the fuck away from them. I say this to my kids all the time. They must have had enough of me saying this but it’s so so true and this is what we’re creating here with the podcast. When you are with your people they are not tolerating you. You’ve got an equal space at that table, you know, for the want of a better metaphor. They are not like, “Oh, well, Hannah’s a bit of a dick, but she always makes the tea.” That shit doesn’t happen anymore. They’re just like, “Yeah, you know, we’re all equally awesome in different ways.” And that acceptance is not an acceptance like, “Oh, they’re having to accept you.” It’s a welcoming “yeah, brilliant. We need you”.

Stuart: The whole thing about your self worth should be more than what you’re worth. So when it goes away or the thought of it going away is a major mental hill to face. You think about it, you’ve got all that success and you’ve got to keep that success. That’s a lot of pressure.

So by defining yourself by your success, you kind of try and propagate. And this is from somebody who realised he was teetering on the edge of some of this. You might look at the suits and think to yourself, he’s a bit up himself. But I genuinely really find it quite funny. And sometimes I say the only person I need to amuse in the room is me. So if you look at me and you think he’s a bit up himself, know that inside I’m laughing at you

Hannah: And you are 100% not up yourself. So yeah.

Stuart: Well, that does help. But like I said at the beginning, when you’ve had success where there’s people with names that you worked with, there are household brands that you’ve done deals with, there’s sales metrics that you’ve succeeded at that to mention them just sounds like you’re boasting. The point to it is that and if it doesn’t feel like a real authentic thing, it’s more performative.

The idea of it going away can in some degree feel so much more of a release. So having seen success and failure sometimes the failure is a blessed release because there’s a lot of energy you get back when there’s very little going on. So success can be a very energy- depleting thing. So I get this whole tension between self worth identity success/failure. It’s been my life and anyone in the creative arts, you know, you have your big wins and then roller coaster thereafter.

Hannah: I think I’m too far the other way, Stu, because I don’t put enough of my worth onto any level of success. I think it comes back to how we view our success. But it’s interesting to me because the other day, and I always hesitate with this stuff, but sadly it does work for the old metrics. I posted a ‘win’ on LinkedIn and it was a client that I’d worked with years ago where I had made a substantial increase, you know, profit, for them directly related to the work I did with them.

I don’t really shout about it. It is quite a good stat, but I wanted to see what would happen. So I put it out there as a post like, you know, I’m quite self-deprecating about the stuff. That was the post and the response was what I expected and it was lovely but there’s a lot of like, “Oh, wow. Amazing. Well done you.” And I wanted to say, “I did this 15 years ago. I’ve done a lot of good or better work since then, but actually people saw a figure and were like, “Oh, this girl gets shit done.”

But actually, I’ve achieved in inverted commas a lot of other stuff in my business world, but I just don’t, I’m not that person that talks about their six figure incomes and all that crap. By the way, I don’t have a six figure salary. I barely have a two figure salary. No, just kidding. Um, but my point being, you know, it’s interesting, isn’t it? It is interesting. I, that was a mask that day, you know, I was in corporate Hannah mode and I got a lot of ego stroking. Oh, wow. Amazing. Oh, you should be really proud of yourself. Okay. You know, I don’t buy into that shit.

Stuart: So, it’ll pass. And that’s one of, ironically, one of the problems when you are immersed in the project, that’s the juice for you. That’s where the sweet spot lies. When it’s finished and the numbers are being counted, you’re almost well, for me, it’s like I’m on to my next thing. Oh, Stuart, it was great. It’s fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the applause is ringing in my ears, but my brain is like on to the next thing.

Hannah: Exactly that. And for this particular client that I was talking about, I didn’t have any KPIs with them. So, I just, I didn’t even notice really until I was, for my own benefit because I’m very thorough, was doing a kind of “I wonder what the impact of that work was” and I was like “oh, oh wow that’s pretty cool”.  But yeah, I won’t be posting things like that regularly I just find it a bit obnoxious.

Stuart: But also, so where I grew up the protestant work ethic that kind of like “you get up and you apply yourself, and you put your shoulder to the wheel”, you know? Uh my grandfather on my mother’s side was from mining stock uh from Wales.

My grandfather’s line was engineers who worked in ship building. You know that those are heavy industries to be involved with. Your day is involved in a lot of sweat toiling day after day after day after day. So that when it comes to your own success, you feel like “well I can’t ever take my foot off the accelerator pedal”. Because uh well, you know, I’ll be letting the side down a bit and then that’s sort of drilled into you. So when you do have success, when you do have that feeling where the load is feeling light, it can drive you nuts because you’re like, I’m not trying. That’s the word trying. I should be trying harder.

Hannah: Must do better.

Stuart: Must do better. Such corrosive energy.

Hannah: So that leads us on to the next section really. The discomfort of receiving. Oh my goodness. Well, so the idea of, you know, receiving is receiving of the success. I’ll dive a bit deeper into this. For many of us spicy folk, receiving feels surprisingly vulnerable, right?

Because this kind of giving is always much safer or always certainly for me feels much safer because I’m able to stay in control if it’s me giving. I mean, we did a whole episode on Christmas and birthdays. Obviously, this is a different form of giving and receiving, but the whole point is still the same. It’s much nicer to be able to chuck a present at somebody and run away than to have that whole kind of attention that comes from receiving.

Stuart: Oh, the spotlight of attention.

Hannah: Oh, utterly brutal. Because when you’re being seen or when you’re receiving, you’re kind of you’re being seen, supported, appreciated. It’s kind of for a lot of us, we feel like we haven’t earned that when I did that post that I’ve explained and people were like, “Oh, wow. Amazing Hannah.” You know, I don’t know why I did an obnoxious voice then. Sorry. Um I just felt like all I did Oh, I did it years ago. And I just think it’s all very awkward.

I find it really awkward. But here’s some examples of where receiving can feel uncomfortable. Like for example, money. You know, there’s a lot of discomfort for many of us around charging properly. We’ve done a whole topic on that. Or accepting financial success or did I deserve that bonus or do I deserve to be paid that much? You know, it’s all a lot of us are not great at receiving that, you know. It feels weird doesn’t it when people are congratulating you or, I don’t know, any praise. You know there’s another one. How many of us dismiss compliments? I alway, and I’m getting better. If somebody gives me praise I go into self-deprecation. “Oh, I like your dress, Hannah. Oh, yeah. It was really cheap from a charity shop”.

Stuart: No, no. Change that. Change that up. Here’s the tip. If somebody says to you, Hannah, you look good in that. The next words out of your mouth, and it’s got to be verbatim said like this, “Of course I do.”

They’ll be so shocked because they’re so used to me being like, “Yeah, yeah, of course I do. Do you think I stepped out of the house and I didn’t look good?. I’ve got eyeballs”. I’m going to say that to you. Don’t you think I own a mirror? Anything like that?

Hannah: I can see!

Stuart: Yes. Thank you for confirming I’m not blind.

Hannah:I struggle to ask for help. Oh my gosh. I really struggle to ask for help. I struggle with letting anybody help me. Like as a small kid, I was the kind “I’ll do it” even if I couldn’t. My mum said when I was about one, I taught myself to… probably not one. I think she’s exaggerating like “my child was a genius” thing. But, you know, when I was really young, I kind of wouldn’t let anybody tie my shoelaces up and I was just like crying, screaming “I’ll do it” until eventually, I think I taught myself just to get away from that. Um,

Stuart: My daughter had a phrase, and we still say it now, and the phrase when she was tiny that as soon as she knew how to say this, “Jia do thyself”. You try and cut something up and “Jia do myself”. Oh, okay. All right. Try to tie up her shoes. “Jia do myself”!

Hannah: I love that so much.

Stuart: Fine. All right. Crack on. Sometimes though, you know, your ambition and your stature are battling. “Jia do myself”. And unfortunately, I’m the spreader in that regard. “Stuart, do thyself”

That independence didn’t fall too far from the tree. I would much rather go and learn how to do something than actually go and ask somebody who can do it to do it for me. I just can’t do it. I just can’t. It’s a major flaw in my entire makeup. It’s begrudgingly that I got some guys in to replace the fence down the garden.

Every hour they were there, I was like “Well, I could have done that. I could have done that. Yep. Yep. Yeah. I’d have done that. Oh, yep. Yep. String line. Yep. Got that. I’ve got one. I’ve got all the tools for this, Stuart”. I had all the tools, but none of the energy. I felt cheated. I felt like I didn’t earn the fence. The fence was put up for me. Like a child with a bib.

Hannah: You were spoonfed.

Stuart: Spoonfed a fence.

Hannah: So, the kind of summary of this section really is that, you know, the biggest most important point to make sometimes: The discomfort isn’t actually about the receiving itself. It’s actually about what receiving means, the visibility, vulnerability, worth, expectations, attention. So for people that have spent years masking or proving themselves, that just feels massively exposing.

Stuart: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Success brings with it unexpected new fears. And I’ve experienced some of this with a business that was I don’t know it just it it just was very successful. Um the figures tell me that. uh, six six figure salary and all!

Hannah: Check you out.

Stuart: Um but you then have several new fears, and these are real champagne problems. You know, “oh where do I put all my champagne, or diamond shoes cutting in a bit are they stew?” You know, one too many Ferraris. Oh. I get it. I understand it. There is a lot of privilege around some of these uh thoughts. But they don’t make them any less real when you are in the middle of it.

One of them can be why me? Why am I special? Why has this happened to me? I set my mind to something and it’s happened. And I don’t know whether it’s something within society, something within the culture, something I think within the media that sort of says you’re never going to achieve it all, but then when you do, you suddenly think, what happened? How did I end up here? You know, “it’s not my beautiful wife. That’s not my beautiful car”. How did I get here? 

Hannah: I’m going to break into song.

Stuart; And so, you get weirded out by that. And then that kind of can give you a real sense of worth, or lack thereof. Because then you get the opposite of it almost like a survivor’s guilt. Like growing up we didn’t have much. We made a lot of what we didn’t have. I am not ashamed to say that I know that some of my most prized toys came from a literal rubbish skip. And yet that’s what we were growing up with. And that wasn’t an exception.

So, you know, I don’t. I don’t use it to sort of put myself apart from anyone. But when you suddenly have such abundance, you can just feel incredibly guilty and that just wears at you because you’ve then got survivors guilt of “Why not them? I’ve worked hard to get what I’ve got and nearly broke myself in the process of that and nearly lost myself completely. And so it comes with no small measure of pain to have got here.

But that doesn’t still mean I don’t suffer from an abundance of privilege when I say these things, but I’ve got a house, a roof over my head of which is a safe space for my family to live in. They’re fed, they’re clothed. We have enough. And saying that we have enough is almost like apostasy in capitalism. You can’t say enough. Enough. That’s not a word. But it’s growth. It’s growth. It’s abundance. It’s ascendance. It’s up. It’s you know, the want generation.

And I think at some point somebody has to call stop. Enough. Why isn’t it that we have just got enough? Why do we need more? Because more is just going to come at more expense in terms of energy expenditure. And there’s the other things of the imposter syndrome. So you get accepted by almost a whole new friend group you make when, you know, success comes calling. It comes calling with friends. It doesn’t come on its own and you change your friend set but not necessarily for the best.

Sometimes I found the people I was being associated with didn’t share any of my values because I came from a council estate and I had very little in common. 

Hannah: I came from a castle. Stuart. No, I didn’t.

Stuart: Did you? I wish you did. Don’t know. I’m going to say Hannah has a castle. Hannah came from a castle. Well, everybody,

Hannah: I’m actually Princess Hannah, but I’ve never shared that before now. It’s taken this many episodes. No, this is all live.

Stuart: Royalty. We are in the presence of royalty, folks. We did not know it. Also, the dynamics between you and your friends can change. That can be a bit awkward.

And this is what I do like, though, when you see somebody who’s been very successful by any metric, very successful, and they’ve still got their same group of drinking friends from when they were like 18. I love that because I can see that they’re probably still in touch with themselves. They’re not so successful that they can’t go out with their own mates who are probably ribbing them about every “oh I saw you in a picture in the paper” And I do hope that that if ever I got to a point where that was part of my life that the people that I knew would keep my feet firmly on the ground.

Hannah: I’m going to summarise that, Stu, by saying my dad, as we know, God rest his soul, had five BAFTAs and still ran the local weekly quiz in his local pub.

Stuart: Fantastic. Fantastic.

Hannah: He didn’t buy into any of that bollocks. He didn’t change anything about himself other than he had to get a really strong shelf for all the baftas. 

So I guess that’s the next point really about the way that when we become more visible, if that indeed is what we want to become, then it changes the emotional stakes because the more visible our business is, the more exposed we can feel. At this point it’s the kind of, my website is a year behind the deadline I’d set for myself. Because, I’m not going to lie, I feel quite exposed with the idea that I set that little ship to sail and everyone starts having a look at it and starts asking me about my six figure salary. Um, slight tangent, sorry.

But visibility, although it’s pounded into us that visibility brings us opportunity, of course it does, but if you’re somebody that yeah, you may want opportunity, you know, a lot of us do want opportunity, but also it brings a lot of stuff we don’t like, attention, judgment, feedback, unsolicited feedback. Anybody? Um, comparison, the possibility of rejection. Like RSD is already alive and well pulsing through my body without putting a freaking arrow above my head to say, “Come and tell me what you think about me. Please come and tell me. 

Stuart: Opinions wanted.” Ding, ding, ding. Flashing an arrow out.

Hannah: Anybody listening, I will never ever ever want your opinions. I won’t. I just can’t cope with them. Um…

Stuart: whereas I do welcome them freely to share and do know that I was a professional standup comedian for a while and I will treat you as a heckler.

Hannah: He’s so good at this. So you know you’ve got that conflict, right? We want people or we potentially want people to notice our work. We want them to connect with what we do. We do, joking apart. We do want their feedback. We always welcome feedback on the podcast because it’s what makes us get better and better. Um, and yet at the same time, we’re kind of trying to hide away from it, too, because I’ve got that tendency to want to scream, “Stop staring at me.” Um, when people are staring at me.

Um, so yeah, examples of that really is kind of, oh gosh, I do this all the time, posting online and then going back and seeing what you said and did you word it properly and did it sound a bit obnoxious and should you have put that exclamation mark in it and oh my god, just massively overthinking it, rewriting stuff. Um, and then that fear of judgment that follows once you put that thought out there, you know, is “are people going to think you’re a dick?” Well, they might, but you can’t control what goes on in people’s brains. Um,

Stuart: No. Stop it. Life doesn’t come with a rear view mirror. 

Hannah: So, this is why we get on so well together. In some respects, we’re incredibly similar, but in this instance, we’re really quite different. And I don’t mean this to embarrass you, but I do aspire to that kind of magnificent armor that you have. All those boundaries really are a fairer way to describe it. That means you’re like, “Yeah, you know, other people’s opinion of me is not my problem.” Um,

Stuart:  it’s wrong. You’re welcome to your opinion, but it’s wrong. And let me tell you why. And I’ll be quite witty and self-deprecating with it. You’ll actually quite like me by the end of it. That’s my superpower. I can make anyone like me, even if you dislike me. Go on. You do. You really do.

Hannah: But I, you know, I do aspire to be more like that. And I’m way further towards that goal than I used to be. Um I definitely know my value a lot more now, thank goodness. But yeah, it’s kind of I do care what people think of me. 

Stuart: Why? Random strangers. The universe needed you. If it didn’t need you, you wouldn’t be here.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Therefore, if that person needed to come up and say that to you at that point, fine. But that’s on them. But exchange of value. Uh there was none. Goodbye. Sorry. Sorry. So transactional, Stuart. How do you get that?

So neurodivergence is entirely interwoven. into one’s energy nervous makeup. You can’t have one without the other. But you know when it comes to life experience and lived experience, I do know one thing and that’s that if your entire success is reliant on having your nervous system at a pitch that is not sustainable, you will wear out. It will just.. I’m lucky I have no long lasting, I probably do and I don’t realise yet. I have no long-lasting effects from having my foot flat on the floor of my entire energy system with the wheels jacked up and going nowhere for far too long.

You can’t exist like that without it ending badly. And I’ve seen it in close family members not ending well. So I take it as some measure of success that I made it through the other side and okay, it might have made me a bit more brutal with my boundaries and maybe made me define myself and really don’t give a toss about what people think about my moustache and my hair and my overall appearance and my thoughts and my thinking other than if I’m wrong, prove it empirically. Do you know what I mean?

It’s like some things burn away when you get through to the other side of this with your sanity intact and the energy left in your body to continue to do worthwhile things. You realise that that flaying of yourself was entirely unnecessary if you’d just held things a little lighter. If you’d have maybe not reacted so passionately in some regards. And I know it’s baked in. I’ve just said all that, Stuart. You just made that point. You’re not consistent in your thinking.

Of course, I’m not thinking this is a research paper. The point is that if you spend too long without acknowledging the very nature of your makeup, at some point the very nature of your makeup will remind you of its needs. And the gap between where you are with your energy use and where it needs to be. That that deficit, that long-term deficit, that debt will be called due all in one go. Bang. And I know I’ve been there. And I’ve been there more than once. That’s the crazy thing.

And this time round, I know more about myself than I did each iteration. So it’s iterations in failure. My life is just iterations of failure until I succeeded because there was no other option left on the table, which was pretty much it. It’s like you run at a wall enough times to realise that maybe I don’t run at the wall. That’s why I’ve got the headaches. Not smart, this one. Really quite clever but not smart. In fact this is the part of the manifesto. This is part of the bakedin Business Oddcast. And the reason for it, if you want to hear the passion of plea, the reason for the existence of the business Oddcast is to make people realise that if you are holding a pint and you’re a pint you’re doing the best you can.

And sometimes, especially people who are not made to fit the world in the shape that the world needs you to be, are holding way more than a pint or expecting to deliver on way more than a pint’s worth, then there’s just disaster. And from someone who knows firsthand that sometimes you just have to take your foot off the accelerator and just freewheel down the hill sometimes. That’s the end of the rant.

Hannah: How many of you are listening and I know I’m putting my hand up here. I am guilty your honor. Um, how many of you listening are in that constant state of almost there almost. I personally am never quite satisfied because of the perfectionist that’s deeply rooted in my brain and my very being. Everything’s not quite finished or, you know, another milestone when we started the odd podcast. Well, you know, let’s get a regular podcast out there and you know and we keep because we’re a scatter gun of brilliant ideas. Luckily I have Stuart here that reigns me in.

Um but yeah, a lot of my life is that kind of I don’t feel hugely secure if I just say, “Yeah, it’s done now.” Oh, no. Do you know what I mean? That’s why it’s kind of “I’ll relax when”. But that “when” never arrives. Because there’s always another target or another goal that the brain decides it needs to do before it’s fully able to just chill out.

Stuart: No, I can give you an approach to this.

Hannah: I love Stuart’s approach.

Stuart: Just so, I suffer from perfectionism. Anyone who’s ever worked with me will realise that sometimes Stuart doesn’t know when done is done. However, I’ve got a handy tool that I’ve started applying. I realised this was a thing in another area and I’ve started applying it in all areas and I’ll explain what it is.

So, as an engineer, when you’re building something, you have a tolerance. Okay? So, you’re given the tolerance of what the build can be. So, let’s say I’m building a piece of framework and they’ll say that the frame has to be built to this specification and you’ve got plus or minus a millimeter. So your tolerance is 2 mil plus or minus what they want. If it’s above or below that then it’s outside of tolerance. Okay? So you didn’t do it and you have to do it again.

So you have to decide before you go into a project what your tolerance is. Now you can then calibrate, fancy words for saying judge, your tolerance for what you will accept as done. And you can judge it on several metrics. The energy you’ve got, the budget you’ve got, the data that you’re dealing with, the timeline that you’re working on. So you can go, “I know that perfect looks like this. But my tolerance on the outside of perfect or below perfect for this project given the rest of the parameters that I’m dealing with is this”  I’ll be happy if I get this close to it. Have I explained that?

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Because it made a straight line in my head. But the idea being that you calibrate to the energy that you’ve got and that’s all that I do. So I currently have got all of the projects that I can deal with. I’m not looking for any more longer term big big projects. I’ve just got no more time or energy. And if I do commit to something, it’s got to either be a very short- term thing or something that isn’t going to take up any more of the energy that I’ve got, which is none. So, I’m not doing anything more. And that’s my success metric. So, that’s how I judge everything.

Hannah: You are so magnificently restrained on this stuff.

Stuart: Logical, isn’t it?

Hannah: No, but you explain it. I’m literally sitting here like, yeah, 100%. I agree with all of that logical smart logic. Can I say logic any more times? And yet I know that as I’m thinking, “Yep, yep, yep.” Freaking genius advice right there. My brain’s like, “Yeah, no, I’m not doing that.” If somebody comes to me and says, like, if you came to me, you wouldn’t.

Stuart: But it’s true.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.. No, there was a part there was a part of my brain going, “No, I will never do that.”

Stuart: I saw your eyes unfocused. I did. That’s why I slowed down because. So, it was great. Go back. Look at the tape again.

Hannah: So, here’s a really good example. So, you know, I think everyone knows that I’ve had some physical health problems for a few months or year and a half or so. Um, I used to be an obsessive cleaner in my house. You know, I would dedicate 50% of my weekend. Every Saturday, I would do a good four, five, six intense hours cleaning almost like I had OCD. Um, cleaning the house like a lunatic. I can’t do that anymore.

So, my husband said, let’s get a cleaner in. And I said, “No, because they won’t be able to do it the way I used to do it.” And he said, “Well, currently, Hannah, no one’s doing it, and it looks like a student house.” I said, “I would rather live in a student house than it not be done the way that I needed to be done.” So, you know, here’s the crazy thing I’m saying here. Because I can’t achieve the pre pre-broken bodied version of myself’s cleaning methods. Therefore, I would rather just fester in a, it’s not quite that bad people, but you know, I would rather just be like, “No, I’m not doing it at all then.” Like a small child, I’m not doing it at all.

So, yeah, madness. If I can’t do 100%, then it’s zero. I’m doing zero%.

Stuart: Absolutely.

Hannah: If people say to met, somebody said to me the other week, can you just write me a monthly mediocre chat GBT blog? I said, no, I refuse and I’m going to kill you if you ask me for that again. I will not give you that. I’m a writer for fucks sake. I’m not going to give you a mediocre chat GBT blog. Never. I want to slap them at that point.

Stuart: Imagine going up to Picasso. Yeah, just no. Just slap some paint on a canvas. Doesn’t really matter. Just, you know, just chuck it on.

Hannah: Just a halfass approach. Have you ever met me? Have you ever met me before? I am definitely an addict to productivity.

Stuart: I see what you’re talking about the uh the energy and the drive and the need to be efficient and all the rest of it. Um there’s a particular thing learning to tolerate the calm, the fact that you’re not in fight or flight mode, the fact that it is plain sailing if bumpy. Um mostly, you know, you’re cruising along and the bills are being paid and nobody seems to be banging on the door demanding things.

Um I went through this very recently after four years of turbulent life events, really turbulent life events, uh right through the middle of a pandemic uh and at a time when everyone was demanding everything of me and I was just reacting literally in the moment at times as to what was in front of me. Uh and you spend four years in that mode and you just come out of it shell shocked and that led to the autism assessment and all the rest of the greatness that has followed.

But there is a time where you’re constantly expecting when’s the next thing going to happen? When you’re on the edge, this precipice and I liken it a little bit to like running downhill as fast as you can and feeling like you’re not quite going to catch up with yourself and you will go tumbling at any point. That edge of your seat kind of moment it all could be because it is so quiet. That sounds like champagne problems. Um it can be so draining in  the noise of when’s the next big bang going to happen.

And I’m sure there are people out there who have a psychological phenomena that they can name about this, but that feeling where you wake with a start at 5:00 to absolute stillness and it’s like your body has relaxed far too far and the animal inside goes, “Wake up. You need to check for predators.” And you wake to nothing and it’s like your heart’s pounding and your sweat is pouring off you and what does your day entail? Nothing. Getting up, doing a few bits of pixels with websites, having a lovely meal. You know, the stresses in your life are quite minimal.

And yet, because you it’s taken this rocky road to get there, you’re left with all the trauma from that that you then have to deal with. And that doesn’t go away when you’re successful. So, I quite often think to myself when you see somebody successful in the media going through something quite personal, in the media, whether it’s a divorce or whatever, and their behavior seems a bit off and a bit erratic, and it’s like they’re a human being. You’ve elevated them to this level of interest, and now you’re parading around their very real human reactions to things and then judging them by it.

It’s like, how toxic a society does that? I just can’t . It just staggers me on a daily basis that it is acceptable to put people who are in very real human drama uh life dramas. I wouldn’t have wanted what I went through in those four years to be publicly broadcast to all and Sundry because it was enough to just deal with the ramifications of everything on my own, let alone having to deal with the public optics. Oh just man alive.

So yes, there’s a lot to chew on there. Some quite esoteric thinking and um wandering down lanes that we went. But I think ultimately we explored the topic. If you’ve got any input, you’ve got any thoughts, you’ve got any ideas, leave them in the comments, leave them in the chats, send us an email, sign up, and do all that sort of thing. I think we need some takeaways and some guidance at the end here.

Hannah: Yeah, quick topline summary.

Stuart: Topline TLDDR takeaways.

Hannah: Um so, quick reminder, success can feel uncomfortable. when um we’re so used to the familiarity of struggling. So if your nervous system is used to stress, pressure, all of those awful things, then um just be aware that success might not sit very comfortably for you, whatever that success means.

Also remember that your worth is not defined by productivity. It’s not the same as um so yeah being and constantly achieving is not what makes you valuable as a person. And I need to really really listen to that as I say that out loud. Rest supports your sustainability. Like my f one of the many favorite things you ever told me, Stuart, was that rest is the preparation.

Stuart: Yep.

Hannah: For the hard work and not the reward. And I’ll be honest, till that point, I used to say to myself out loud, if you can finish this, you can have a cup of tea and you know, take 10 minutes off. What the fuck Stuart? Why was I rewarding myself? I still do it sometimes, but then I hear the kind of hang on a moment. And actually, I’m getting really good at buffer days and the things that we’ve talked about before that you taught me.

Stuart: I’m heartened to hear it because we’ve exchanged messages and you have been respecting your own energy and boundaries on that. So, well done.

Hannah: Finally. It only took 51 years.

Stuart: No, but it takes what it takes. The the trouble is I think what you have to do, and this is happening more widely as well and I applaud it and this hopefully is what the business Oddcast is contributing to is somebody saying to you, you have permission to have a buffer day because guess what? I need them.

And you suddenly go, “Oh, it’s not just just me.” And then you meet a community of people who say, “No, no, we all have to dole out our energy as it comes. It’s it’s I can wake up and my day can be done. done before I’ve even got out of bed. And I know at that point, you know, the buffer day is sacrosanct. So, well done.

Hannah: They’ve saved me completely. They’ve literally saved me. Um,  or or are saving me. Work in progress, too.

Stuart: Yeah. Well, you know, every day is a school day.

Hannah: It really is. And the last one, just things are allowed to go well without you having to break yourself to get there. And actually, if you do have to break yourself to get anywhere, then there’s the sign right there that you should not be doing it right because you shouldn’t have to break yourself to achieve anything.

Stuart: Oh yes, I’m wiped is not a measure of success.

Hannah: No,

Stuart: Yes, do things that are energetic and intense and demand the most of you. But if your constant response to the question “how are you doing?” is “I’m wiped”. Time to maybe regroup and have a think.

Hannah: Absolutely that. What about your tips Stu?

Stuart: So my tips: You have to acknowledge a few wins. So I call them fire breaks, buffer days, whatever you need to to call them. Choose those days to celebrate your wins. Take yourself out for a slap up meal at a local greasy spoon. Walk around the shops and don’t buy anything. Go for a walk. You know, take two hours for lunch instead of the usual one.

Reward yourself in some way for a win. I recently uh took on board a new customer We had a uh a lovely email about progressing it on after seeing some visuals. And tomorrow I am taking tomorrow afternoon to do what the heck I like because that’s my buffer in this week. Um and I’m I’m I’m going out and intensely peopling tomorrow with with the esteemed Hannah Logan. So I’m going to need a buffer day for people.

So you got to celebrate those wins. And finally, you got to track your progress really. Okay, don’t just look at your bank balance. Think about this. How many times this week did you have to do something for someone else that you didn’t want to do? And reduce that number of hours every week. Think of ways of doing it. And I mean including your job. You’re not at your job because you want to be at your job. You’re at your job because somebody else is paying you to be at your job.

Now, some of us are lucky enough to have vocations and be passionate about your job. Keep doing your job. You’re good. We’re not talking to you. You can listen. These are people who are feeling a little bit like the leash is chafing and there are only so many hours left in your life. And how long before you decide that you’ve had enough? And all we’re saying is there is a better way. There is a different way. There is an improved way of thinking about how your energy can be used to make money because ultimately that’s what it is.

You have to make money to live and If your energy doesn’t turn up in capitalism the way everybody else’s does, uh, then you’re going to need an alternative plan. And I’m hoping that we’re demonstrating there is a plan B. And not even a plan B. It’s your plan A. That’s the point. It’s somebody else’s plan B, but that’s good. That’s not their plan A.

Hannah: I really like that. Yes.

Stuart Morrison And that’s it really. And uh, and not to take yourself too seriously. Uh, the the point of being self-employed is it should be the best of what you want to do. A collection of things that you enjoy doing when you’re doing them. You might have some admin around that, but get someone else to do the admin. That’s what I’ve done. Uh, thank you very much for listening. Please subscribe, share, like, do all that stuff. Leave us a comment. Are we right? Are we wrong? Tell us why. And you know, give us a little insight into your thinking because we want to hear about that. So, uh, thank you very much for listening and, we’ll see you next time. That’s great. All the very best. Bye-bye. Bye.

Hannah: Bye

Pricing should be simple, shouldn’t it? Work out the time, add the costs, decide the margin, send the quote, float away looking financially competent. Lovely. Except for many neurodivergent business owners, pricing is rarely just maths. It gets tangled up with self-worth, rejection sensitivity, time blindness, imposter syndrome, financial instability, and the quiet horror of someone saying, “Is that your best price?”

In this episode, we unpack why pricing can feel so emotionally loaded when your internal sense of value is a bit… wobbly. We talk about undercharging, overexplaining, defensive pricing, “just jobs”, comparison spirals, and why your price is not a referendum on your worth as a human being. We also get into the very real cost of giving away time you didn’t mean to give away, especially when every “quick favour” comes with admin, context switching, recovery time, and a small existential wobble.

This is about building pricing that is grounded in reality, not panic. Tracking your time, reviewing your rates, adding buffers, practising pricing conversations, and learning to sit in the silence after you’ve said the number. Because you are not charging for approval. You are charging for skill, experience, capacity, and the life force required to do the work properly.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:31 – Introducing May’s Theme – Money, Worth and Neurodivergent Business Confidence
00:00:55 – Topic of the Week – Pricing When You Don’t Trust Your Sense of Value
00:01:11 – Topic introduction – Pricing is more than just maths, there’s self worth, rejection
00:02:40 – Pricing Is Emotional, Not Logical – Pricing is a popularity contest
00:04:54 – Stu’s views on small business pricing, service offering and market place fit
00:07:05 – Under-appreciating your own value, experience, age and soft skills matter
00:09:45 – Time-blindness and value distortion, with hyperfocus and giving away hours
00:11:41 – The value distortion of “Just Jobs” and making sure your time is valued
00:13:45 – Monotropism and hyperfocus impact on time efficiency
00:14:33 – Comparison spiral and how it distorts and reduces your sense of value
00:15:40 – The perception distortion lens, a story about being a lookalike and a lesson in pricing
00:19:50 – BUT… what happens when IMPOSTER’S SYNDROME rides in… How do beat I.S?
00:21:30 – With… the “Hair Treatment”…
00:23:00 – Shout out to Charlie Ruttle! and the antidote to Imposter’s Syndrome
00:24:39 – Capacity, anxiety and defensive pricing
00:27:01 – One price doesn’t fit all and capacity is variable
00:29:00 – RSD, pricing, billing, fiscal fear and over-justifying your pricing
00:32:00 – The answer… that Stu uses… FIRST THE DISCLAIMER
00:36:40 – Self confidence is required at some point as is a purpose
00:38:15 – The grateful to be paid pattern, employment, debt and financial attitudes
00:40:50 – The power of the silence after you state your price…
00:45:45 – Ideas for designing pricing with nervous system safety in mind
00:46:10 – Hannah’s takeaways
00:49:30 – Stu’s top tips
00:56:45 – Final words – like, share and subscribe.
00:57:55 – Next Week’s content
00:59:47 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

THE ODDCAST MANIFESTO

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – A range of resources for neurodivergent business owners.

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Stuart: Hello and welcome to another Business Oddcast. My name is Stuart Morrison and with me today is the magnificent Hannah Logan.

Hannah: Your  Debbie McGee? Oh no, coz that makes you the little guy! Yeah. No, sorry. The little guy with some magic. That’s magic.

Stuart: That’s magic. I quite like Paul Daniels.

Hannah: Yeah, I like Debbie McGee. She’s quite—Yeah, she was quite feisty. Yeah. Sorry.

Stuart: No worries. Um, so what is today’s topic?

Hannah: Well, so we’re at the beginning of May, which is exciting. And it’s exciting because the theme for the entire month is money, worth, and ND neurodivergent business confidence. We need to make a firework noise. Ooohhhh.

Um, and today the topic of this episode is ‘pricing when you don’t trust your sense of value’. This is literally a lesson for me. I’m taking it. I’m going to take in everything you say and go away and become richer.

Stuart: Yeah. So, okay. All right. Well, give us the introductory notes.

Hannah: So, it’s a topic that I reckon a huge amount of our followers, our listeners will be able to relate to. Because, pricing for everybody really, but certainly for us, is rarely just maths. Because, certainly for me, it is kind of reflecting my identity. I see it as—um—my self-worth. It’s got a whole load of fear of rejection thrown in there. It’s fear of not being seen as too much or not enough. You know, “is it too—is it too expensive? Sorry. Oh, am I too cheap? Will you think I’m rubbish?”. All of those thoughts round and round and round. And I think for many neurodivergent business owners, pricing can feel really destabilising because our internal sense of value is not always stable.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Um—not much of us is stable. I will talk for myself there. You know, we’ve talked about it in our last episode, but time blindness, fluctuating capacity, rejection sensitivity, RSD, my old nemesis. Um—past instability around finances and stuff, they all distort how we calculate what something is worth.

Stuart: Yes.

Hannah: How do we know that? Because we’ve got all these other elements. It’s not a simple thing for us. What do I charge for this item or this time or whatever. Um—so going into the first talking point, pricing can be really emotionally loaded because it’s not logical for us. So even when we think we’re calculating rationally, pricing decisions are still filtered through that whole kind of identity and fear. And if we feel bad about ourselves or we’ve got, for example somebody like me I do have a lot of RSD, pricing is all about how we don’t want to put people off or upset people or you know what I mean.

Stuart:  there’s so much more to it than—it’s not “this is worth this”. For a lot of us pricing is a popularity contest.

Hannah: Absolutely, and then you’ve got the whole kind of fear of being too expensive wanting to be liked. One of my biggest fears when I started business, although I haven’t got it anymore, was like I don’t want there to be a crowd of people like “look what she’s charging”. I’m not, if anyone’s listening about my pricing, I’m not expensive. I’m the going rate, but my point being that what was really going around my brain like “why would anybody care about that stuff”. 

Stuart : Yeah, I have heard the chorus of that song. It’s, yeah, it’s quite an odd thing. 

Hannah: I think it’s because you know, some of us are confusing pricing with our personal value. We’re seeing it as what am I worth? Well, no, it’s never been about what are you worth? And we’ll del—we’ll delve more into that during this podcast. But your price, what you charge, your hourly rate, or your service rate or however you calculate the thing that you sell, be it your time or a product, is not reflective of how good or bad you are or it certainly shouldn’t be and it shouldn’t come into your calculations when you’re considering what you would be—what you should be charging you know.

Stuart: Yeah. I guess, but I’ve always reflected my pricing by what the market can stand and whether the person standing in front of me can afford that is,I don’t really care. Well no, I don’t say that in a callous way. When you are marketing, you are trying to fit what your service offering is and your price point to what there is a demand for. And I think that a lot of business owners get things around the wrong way. Because they put out a stall and go “come buy”. And it’s like, well, if you’re not setting out a stall that people want to buy from anyway, it doesn’t matter what your price is. And then you’re setting your own personal judgment of what you value yourself against you. You’re just on a hiding to nothing.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: The easiest way to get a finger on the pulse of what you are charging is phone the competition up, submit a request, give them a brief. You know, that’s not entirely possible for all businesses. Um, but you should if you’re going to go into an industry know roughly what the price hierarchies are. You know, a fairly newly minted designer is going to charge commensurably less than somebody who’s got national campaign experience because they’re in totally different markets. 

Nobody who runs a small business needs somebody who has national exposure unless they are looking for some serious growth. But a newly minted fresh out of college designer with a brand new portfolio might be just what a local hairdresser needs. So then you have to decide what your worth is based on your market. So just entirely picking a price point because you think, “Oh, I’m worth”. I’ve always thought that a bit random to be fair”.

Hannah: Yeah, I totally get what you’re saying. And I think the other thing that comes into the mix and muddies the waters even further is a lot of people don’t fully get what their value is. I mean I remember early on in my career I’d already at that point got about 20 years of experience in sales and marketing and I was like well the average price for somebody doing what I do is ‘this’ and then somebody came in and said but you’ve got 20 years of experience in this. I’d not even considered that.

Stuart: Yes. That’s a big difference. 

Hannah: I just saw “what does somebody charge for X in this field, but I had not added on. I had not moved up the scale. Because, also, you look at that price, but then you work out, well, are you adding more value than somebody that just started learning that subject? Do you know what I mean? So, there’s all these differences—and that’s what messes with my brain. There’s all these different, um, knobs that you need to move up and down a little. You know what I mean? 

Stuart: So, it’s again going out into the marketplace and putting your flag in the ground and saying this is what it is. And I guess there is always going to be an element of it that can feel scary to say to people “this is how I see myself”.

Hannah: Yeah. Because there is an element of that you know. It’s quite exposing isn’t it?

Stuart: It is. But you should if you are expensive be very upfront and open about it. And expensive is not a term that I use. Because doing a bad job twice, that’s expensive. Doing the right job and being on the right side of the equation, whatever your spend is, you know, if you could help your customers to increase their business by £10,000 a month, and you were only charging them 500 quid a month to do that, you are massively undervaluing yourself. You know, a good measure of worth is exactly how beneficial you are to the business.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: That’s why you should always be in something that a company can’t get rid of like accountancy or law or—Indispensable. HR, IT, that sort of stuff. It’s kind of the lifeblood of a business. So there—it can be sexy to be in an all new kind of exciting area and doing AI stuff and there’s a demand for that. I get it. But you know when budgets are tight you do the things you have to do not the things you want to do.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Here endeth the lesson.

Hannah: Well that I think that nicely leads us on to the next bit really which is about time blindness and value distortion.

Stuart: Oh hello Captain time blindness here. I think we discussed this at quite some length in the last episode.

Hannah: We did.

Stuart: Yes. Um—time blindness is just awful. Um—especially when you’re looking to value yourself because you can think well that will take me an hour and then three hours after having done a deep dive on a couple of YouTube rabbit holes just so you fully understand the full context of the customer’s business model. I’m not saying that that’s something I’ve done but that’s something I’ve done. I decided that my ability to judge my value over time was likely to be wrong. And I now have a process where I’ve got somebody who’s got like the opposite version of time blindness is like it’s—what would that be like time 2020 awareness?

Hannah: Yeah. Know what it is? Yeah. Time 2020. I like that.

Stuart: Um, yeah. And he’s always overly pessimistic. That time blindness thing can really cripple your business because every job takes longer than you expect it to or rather sorry, every job takes longer than you’ve priced for. And that’s just devaluing your price per hour. So it doesn’t even matter if you’ve got a high price per hour. If you’re giving away hours with every job, that’s—that’s like a leaking ship.

Hannah: That is literally my whole life. That is literally my whole life. And the problem for me is that I know how long it should take. Like the average time it should take and yet, like you said, I’ll take a deep dive on something to get more background information I don’t really need. But my brain likes all that information. 

Stuart: So yes, this is where the value distortion comes in the just jobs where they go oh would you just do and that’s another hour that they’ve just tacked on. And you feel that sense of, well, there’s an amount of goodwill that has to come with every relationship. But it’s always funny how the will is good on your behalf.

Hannah: Yeah, it’s just taking the piss at that point. 

Stuart: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, making sure that those just jobs don’t crop up too often. And when they do, this is what I would suggest every business does. Doesn’t matter whether or not you’ve reduced the invoice to zero, the line item should still be on the invoice. So, if they have asked you to do something, you put it on there and you zero it down, but you can account for it, and then you can look back over your year and see how many ‘hour jobs’ you did just for free and when that number hits you like it did me like a truck and you put the commensurate value against those hours that you’ve given away and you think I could have easily had an extra £10,000 in my pocket. And if the person says no well what you’ve got all those hours left to sell again. So, you’re going to end up on the right side of that equation every time. 

Hannah: It’s just so frustrating, isn’t it?  I do work with people where I kind of do, well, an hour here and an hour there, but it never is an hour. And that’s not on me. What I mean is if I was doing an hour of good work, there’s a whole buffer either side of that hour, the preparation for the good work. And then the. Do you know what I mean? It’s not like you sit down. You press a button and you just fire off at 100% and then you press a button at the end of the hour. It doesn’t work like that.

Stuart: No, I don’t meet—get to my computer raring for a solid peak performance hour. It takes a while to warm myself up. There’s also the hyperfocus part of it as well and the monotropism of the hyperfocus that when you’re locked in—the wrench to you and the context shift. I find the hardest days for me when I’ve got four or five smallish but very detailed jobs to do. Uh—probably around projects, maybe around accounts and finance or sometimes coding. Um—and I have to context switch between a design problem, a coding problem, an accounting thing, doing four compliance things and answering four phone calls. That in a day will fry my brain. And then you wake up the following day and have to price a job. Oh. Absolutely painful.

Hannah: Now on to the comparisons. We’re going to be looking at a comparison spiral. 

Stuart: Tell us what that is. Comparison spiral sounds intriguing.

Hannah: I think it sounds a lot more exciting than it really is. Comparison is awful, right? We all know that. We’re all told our entire lives don’t compare ourselves to other people. And yet for a lot of us or for probably most people..

Stuart: No. You see, I do compare myself to other people. And I find other people wanting in almost every capacity.

Hannah: You’re like, “Yep, still not as good as me”. Everybody’s a constant disappointment to Stuart Morrison. So, comparison distorts our pricing models dramatically because especially for neurodivergent brains, we often compare qualifications, confidence, visibility, output, all of this crap that’s forced upon us to compare. And then we probably invariably conclude that we should charge less because if we find ourselves not living up to this comparison with other people, then we can conclude, “oh well, I’m not quite as good as all of them”.

Stuart: Oh, no, no, no. Yet, again, this is where Stuart’s distortion lens fails to see how people end up with that kind of thinking. So, let me give you an explanation. So, when I first started out as a lookalike, I was charging between £250 and £350 a gig. Okay. And a gig wasn’t just an hour. It was maybe a day of my life because by the time you’ve traveled to the gig, done the gig, done whatever you needed to, may have even had to stay over and then driven back the next day, that’s a day of your life you’re not getting back. So, you know, but 250, 350 quid, this was late 90s, early 90s.

Uh—that was not bad given that I was also running a business. So I could have a day out on my business and make 300 quid. It soon becomes like any other job—painful—because the cost that you’re giving to your business is you being a day out of it. There’s more than that amount that you’re making back in disruption. Anyway, the long and the short of it was I met a fabulous guy, a chap called Gavin Pomford. If you’re out there listening, Gavin, hi. Hello.

Hannah: Shout out to Gavin.

Stuart: Shout out to Gavin. And he gave me a complete reality check about pricing. And we turned it on its head. And we used to use our pricing model to prove the quality of what we were providing as a lookalike, um, double act. And this was the value change that we made. We went to a marketplace that was selling £300 acts and we told them you’re now going to have to spend a minimum £3,000. They look at those £300 acts completely differently when they see the quality of what they get for three grand. And suddenly, because we were a good act, you know, we were a good act. We were tight. The money we spent on our costumes, one of my costumes was more than my wife’s wedding dress, but…the point to it was they could have somebody who turned up in a fancy dress outfit for 300 quid or they could have something that was almost the televisual equivalent in front of them.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And quite often those budgets wanted the very best. And so we used to say to people, “Oh, if your budget’s not there, we can offer you a budget alternative.” And we would send them to our competitors and they would look at them in comparison and go, oh yeah, we can see why they’re 300 quid. So that’s what I’m saying is don’t judge your value on your own value. You have to think about your customer and what their value is. And if they’re booking a suite at the Dorchester to put on an event, they are not worried about the difference between £300 and £3,000. But it’s a stake in the ground that says that’s how good we are. And people would talk about us behind our back about our high price as if that was a negative 

Hannah: thing. Like look at those people making all that money.

Stuart: Exactly. It’s like—

Hannah: Bastards.

Stuart: So yeah, I would suggest that there is a certain notoriety that comes with charging at the top end to a clientele that can afford it because your reputation is sealed within that. So there is a sense of personal value, but you’ve raised it to that ultra professional level. And this is my thinking. I would much rather be an ultra niche barber that only worked with a specific clientele and a very small roster of customers than a high street retail barber.

Hannah: Absolutely that. And what you’re saying makes so much sense. But throw a little spanner in the works. Okay. What happens when our nemesis or some of ours nemesis ‘impostor syndrome’ comes in?

Stuart: You tie them to a chair, ball gag on their mouth and a bag over their head. Tell them to shut up—

Hannah: Because that is, and I imagine I’m not alone here or certainly people listening in and stuff. I generally I know that I’m really good at what I do. Like the majority of me knows that and I’ll do a bit of work and that reinforces it etc etc. But occasionally there’s a little voice that’s like, “What if they find out? What if they find out that actually you’re really rubbish? It’s all just a lie.” And that kind of—that little horrible inner critic imposter does exist in my body and in my brain.

Stuart: Oh, 100%—I understand it. And also there’s a lot of privilege going on for me. You know, if you’ve not watched me or know nothing about me, it may come as a complete shock to find out I’m a white middle-aged guy with all my opinions and privilege. Um, so I do understand that when I stand in a room and I stand there with authority, a lot of that is afforded to me by society. Okay? So, I’m not blind to that at all. And that imposter syndrome can be really loud for people who do not fit that model. So, I get it and I do understand it and I do acknowledge it and I will hold space for it and not diminish it. Um, but I do think at some point you have to go and do what I call the hair treatment. The hair treatment is because you’re worth it. You’re there. You’re there because you’re worth it.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: If you weren’t worth it, you wouldn’t be there. And every time I find myself in increasingly rarified circles, I think to myself. Yeah, I’ve worked hard to be here. Yeah, this is about right and more of it. And I want to be representative of my tribe, my clan, my heritage. Um, I’m not going to diminish any of that. Uh, or listen to it be diminished. Uh, and that’s why people like me need to stand in those rooms and people like you and people like the people listening to this need to be heard by those people that have stood in those rarified rooms and not had people at an equal level to them, talking to them as equals. And you are worth it. You are 100% worth it. And I can sit and make all sorts of, you know, prognostications from this podcast, but if there’s one thing I want the people who are listening to this to know, anything you attempt to do or try to do, you are capable of doing it. You are worthy of doing it. And you should go out and do it. And no other voice should enter into the question of whether you should do it other than your own self value.

Hannah: Amen to that. It’s completely—I mean, you know, one of my favorite people who’s also one of our biggest fans. Quick shout out to Charlie Ruttle

Stuart: Charlie—

Hannah: Incredible. Um, you know, she became self-employed less than a year ago. I hope I’ve got that right, Charlie, if you’re listening. Um, and she has achieved so much building a community for neurodivergent people, working really intensely in AI. She’s incredible at what she does and yet so humble and actually really quite clueless about how good she is.

Stuart: Oh, they’re gold.

Hannah: She’s, but she doesn’t. And I’m actually giving her probably the team talks you give me when she’s like, “I don’t know why I won an award because I’m just doing a thing, but I’m not very good”. And oh my goodness. And I say, “you are incredible. That’s why you got the award”. But, yeah, I see it all the time. And that impostor syndrome and it’s just cruel. It’s like having a bully on your shoulder that’s like “you are really shit, and they’re going to work it out soon”. And it’s just that horrible. 

Stuart: Well, you don’t have to have that anymore.

Hannah: No?

Stuart: If that bully pops up, look on your other shoulder and Stu and Hannah are standing there going, “Well, there’s two of us and there’s only one of him. So, are you going to listen to that?

Hannah: We’re going to punch it in the face”.

Stuart: Yes.

Hannah: We were talking about bullies over lunch earlier.

Stuart: Oh, we were.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: They’re the scum of the earth.

Hannah: Scum of the earth. I want to fight them all, but then that would make me a bully. 

Stuart: Or would it? Or would it be self-defense? 

Hannah: Anyway, that’s a question for another time.

Stuart: That’s another topic for another day. Definitely. Next thing is the capacity anxiety and defensive pricing. And I, again, I hear this and I can see it and I understand it and I don’t want to diminish it, but there comes a point in being a business where you have to divorce how you feel about the price. Now, I’ll give you an example of this in my own sphere. We have a business and it’s a burger business that sells products, uh burgers. And, um, you can go and order a burger. Now, you can go to McDonald’s and get one really cheap, but we are serving a premium product and we can only serve so many of them per hour. So, we have priced ourselves accordingly. And there are some people locally who say that it’s an expensive burger and I would say it’s priced at a point that we can sell it at. And I think that a lot of the time when you put your price out there, you have to just accept that there are going to be some people who say that’s expensive. There just are. And there should be. You should elicit a response where if you are selling a premium product, you don’t want everybody to have it or it’s not premium at that point, is it?

Well, that’s why these large, um, premier brands have their retail versions. You know, the large couture houses, they have their off-the-peg ‘by Armani’ editions and stuff and you can do it in your own business, but the risk that you have to realise is that it has to be where it were to be a retail end of the market,that it doesn’t take tons of your time to deliver the end result for the customer. Because otherwise you’ll go broke relatively quickly. You can’t defensively price against somebody with deeper pockets. You just can’t.

Hannah: No.

Stuart: And a national brand that wants to own the space that you exist in will just suck the customer oxygen away from you by just offering discounts for however they can do it for as long as they can until all the local business goes pop. And that’s been the model for years. So don’t compete in that space. And also like any industry, there are different levels. You know, there is not one price for a takeaway burger as you’ve just explained. You know, there’s a massive scale.

Hannah: Yeah, from like the ones that are made out of squashed up mice and nostrils.

Stuart: Yes. But that was your fault for going to squashed mice and fries.

Hannah: I love that place. Great milkshakes. We’re just talking so much rubbish at this point. It’s brilliant. Yeah, I hear what you’re saying though. 

Stuart: But yeah, I get it that there is also that capacity risk where you’re like, I know that this may take me twice as long as I’m pricing for because my brain refuses to chooch when I demand it needs to. And I get that. But in the human condition, there is a wide range of different capacities for many very different reasons. I just cannot understand why other humans can’t go, “Oh, you can’t do that. Oh, right. Oh, that’s interesting. What can you do? Oh, that’s brilliant. I’ll go and do some more of that then.” Rather than going, “You can’t do this, but I can do this really well. You should be able to do it as well as I should. Look at you. You’re twice as tall as me.” Right? Why is that the model?

Hannah: It drives me crazy. And not only are they comparing in that example to themselves, but they’re also—Don’t forget the societal poster that says, “Oh, but you should be able to do it like this”.

Stuart: Yeah. Coz we’ve decided that the average group of the majority do it this way. So, anything less than that is your deficit.

Hannah: No, it doesn’t. Coz I didn’t meet your made up freaking number on a thing that isn’t real. What bastards. Sorry. Can you tell listeners that it gives me the rage?

Stuart: Let’s move along coz Hannah’s threatening me. 

Hannah: Oh dear. So, we’ve touched on a bit of sort of RSD and the way that it can impact the way that we work out our pricing and stuff, but actually it also impacts conversations around pricing and billing and things like that. So, for a lot of ND people, push back on price doesn’t feel like a kind of to and fro negotiation. Often it feels like a personal rejection. You know, Stuart, this is what it’s going to cost me to write you a blog. Oh, really? Blimey, John down the road can do it for half the price. I don’t hear. Well, I don’t think Good luck with that there, mate. Go and get a shit one from John. I think Yeah, he’s right. I overpriced coz I’m rubbish. In fact, I don’t think that anymore. I’m playing old Hannah.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Old Hannah 20 years ago would have been like, “Oh, okay. I’ll do it for free because I’m just so rubbish. I’ll beg you to let me write your blog for you.” Um, 

Stuart: I’ll pay you if you publish my blog.

Hannah: I’ll pay you if you let me write for you. Um, so this RSD, the trigger, can lead to sort of immediate discounts which is one thing you know. “Oh, don’t worry I’ll give you mates rates” or you know that the price should be here but by the time the end of the deal you’re charging 20% less. But also it can lead, and I do fall into this camp occasionally.  I’m sure loads of people listening do as well. It leads to overexplanation.  You do not have to justify your price. And Stuart, I’m sure, will say to you, that’s your price.. This is what it costs. If you can’t afford it, you’re very welcome to shop elsewhere or, you know, the equivalent of a business conversation. 

And yet, I think a lot of us feel like we’ve got to, you know, “you get this and this”.  Of course, when you are putting a proposal together for somebody, whether it’s a verbal one or an actual document dependent on the project, you need to break it down. You’re not just going to say, “Oh, that will take me a week or what does that involve, Hannah?” Just a week. You don’t need to know the details. Well, they do need to know a bit of the details if they’re paying for that time. But, you know, sometimes also, and I’ve done this too, which is embarrassing, we can get defensive. You know, we’re not only overjustifying ourselves, but we can get a bit defensive because at that point, we think we’ve been rejected. So, at that point, we’re having an argument with somebody that’s literally had an opinion on our pricing. Um, And you know, it can fall into—if we’re not careful, in an ideal world, but we can’t always stop this stuff. But it could fall into that kind of “she doth protest too much”

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Why is she overexplaining why she’s charging? You know, at that point, if I have to tell you how great or how valuable my product is in an overexplaining way, then you’re going to start questioning.

Stuart: Yeah. I shouldn’t have to sell myself, right? I’m listening with intent and I’ve got the answer.

Hannah: I knew you would. I knew you would!

Stuart: Well, I’ve got the answer that I use. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it’s what I do.

Hannah: It will be very workable and it will really, I mean, a lot of us, me included, really, really try and avoid negotiation because it’s just small talk on steroids for me.

Stuart: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, you want to get into negotiation. It’s like having a small talk conversation, but naked. It’s awkward.

Hanah: It’s awkward. You’re trying to cover up your important parts whilst trying to remind them that you’re really worth every bit of what you’re trying to—Oh, it’s brutal.

Stuart: It’s very exposing.

Hannah: We need your answer, Stuart, because it’s horrible.

Stuart: So, this requires a level of confidence, but it also requires a level of competence. Okay? If you’re a complete dick and your product or services are shit This will not work. All right. This—just don’t attempt this.

Hannah: The mouse burger, please. Do not listen.

Stuart: Don’t mouse burger. Yeah, mouse burger and fries. This will not work for you. We are on to you. You’re a milkshake away from bankruptcy. If  you’ve just tuned in, ladies and gentlemen, this is the weirdest business podcast in the world.

Hannah: You’re going to think we’re both having a stroke or something or just—

Stuart: No, the attitude to take and this works for a consultant. This works for somebody in a professional services capacity. This might not work in retail. Your mileage may vary and it comes with a certain degree of risk. So, but all business comes with risk, right?

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: That’s why you get the big reward. You take a big risk. So, the way that I play my consultative,uh, persona is benign cynicism. Let me explain that. So when you go to the doctor, he takes what you’re saying on surface level, but he’s probing deeper with his questions afterwards. So when he’s listening to you, he’s got that kind of like, well, I’m listening to what you’re saying, but I’m not believing a word of it until I have witnessed some of this or that. Just kind of not an aloofness, a coldness, not a distance just to like—I’ll take that under advisement you know and then you list all of the reasons why their plan is shit.  But you don’t just say that. You do the ‘shit sandwich’. You know “well look at this project, that’s fantastic, that’s brilliant, that’s superb, you’re amazing, the person who came up with that, was that you?, that bit’s genius. We’re not changing a word of that. But was this someone else who did all this? No, that was me, too. Well, this bit—

Hannah: You’re a dick.

Stuart: Well, Dave did talk to me about that earlier. So, it’s probably Dave’s fault. Yeah, Dave was an idiot. Dave did all this, did he? Yeah, he did all that, right? That’s all shit We’re going to get rid of that. And then we’ll do this bit at the end. And then here we go. This is a sprinkle. I’ll put some sprinkle on the top. My magic sprinkle. And my magic sprinkle costs a little bit more than other people’s sprinkles, but it’s a magic sprinkle. And they go, “All right, okay. All right, fine.” And you say, But you know, of course, it’s going to be dependent on the budget if you’re going to get anywhere near that. So,um, what are we looking at and then you leave a silence.

Hannah: So, you ask about their budget?

Stuart: Yeah. You want to know what the budget is. I want to know whether or not what you’ve told me you need and your budget are aligned because surely you’ve got a budget. Yeah. But what could you do it for? Well, I could do it for three times as much as your budget and we’re not going to get anywhere. Until I know your budget, I’m not going to go anywhere close to it. I’m not playing ‘pin the budget on the project’. You have a budget. What is your budget? And they’ve got nowhere to go. And the point is I am solving a problem for them. They have a gap between the money in their bank account and where they need to be, which is what this project is. So, as long as I can align what I can deliver from that project to get them to the minimum viable point across the line for their budget is usually what wins the day. So, when you’re negotiating. You’re not negotiating the budget. The budget is set. That’s your budget, right? Okay. How close can we get your project to the perfect version of what you want with that budget. There is a certain amount of self-confidence that you just need in business. And no amount of outsourcing business intelligence consulting gurus are going to change your world until you step up and go, “I am worth this”. And not only that, this is the shift you have to make in your head. If you’re just pricing to earn, that’s fine. But if you’re running a business that’s got a cause or a mission or a ‘why’ that is mattering to you, and that can be just to put food on the table for your children, then you are driven and you’re way more driven to self-improve because other people, and this is what I find, if other people are relying on me, I’m much likely to be better than if I’m relying on my own output. Self motivation is difficult for me unless, you know, if I’m improving the house for the family, that job’s more likely to get done than me doing a project for my own self.

Hannah: I can relate to that.

Stuart: So, I think that when you’re pricing, if you can remember that I’m doing this for more than just my self-worth, oh, nice. I feel imposter syndrome, but I need to put food on the table for my family. And for the people I employ as well, I feel a real sense of importance that the people I work with get paid their due promptly and at a fair market value.

Hannah: Kind of takes us, leads us really nicely into the next point really which was the kind of, and I’ve experienced this 100%, the grateful to be paid pattern.

Stuart: Yeah, I think we just covered that as well because there has to come a point where you put your flag in the ground and you say this is my business, this is what I do and this is what I am charging.

Hannah: That makes a lot of sense to me. I think the problem sometimes can be that quite a few neurodivergent people may have had a history of the kind of employment issues or you know starting a job, losing a job that causes instability and that can often lead to financial instability. Or also a lot of us have got into debt through impulsive buying and you know naivety and all that shizzle. So I think I remember when I was first self-employed and invoicing people when they paid I was like “yeah”, you know, like I really did feel grateful to be paid even though I couldn’t convert it into my brain or I gave them a really good thing and they’re paying me back for it. Now I obviously see that completely but I think there is still that there can still be that kind of gratitude to be paid because it’s based on that kind of panic of, you know, you’re waiting for that money to come in.

Stuart: Oh yeah.

Hannah: And you’ve got an irrational, or some people have an irrational, view of money because of that kind of history. And I think that you know, you’ve touched on that really, that can also be a thing that panics a lot of us. Oh well you know I don’t want them to go elsewhere. I mean, I know that you’ve just explained brilliantly why that does not need to be a fear, and it makes so much sense what you’re saying. And yet, I still think that’s why a lot of people, not me anymore, thank goodness, but that’s why a lot of people do undercharge . Because they forget that actually they’re better off, you know, charging people their going rate and servicing less people than having to eventually discount it to half the price and having to service double the people. So, you know what I mean? A lot of this stuff is often driven by the kind of emotional paranoia, you know, bad self-worth kind of stuff. And you have got an amazing force field to a lot of that shit. And you’ve taught me so much because of it.

Stuart: The power comes in the silences.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And if you deliver your price with an apology and an explanation and three PowerPoints, slides, then you’re negotiating from weakness. When you say, “This is my price and this is what it’s going to take for me to divert some of my life force, the very thing of my being that exists only in this realm for a short period of time, and divert it to pay your trifling worries.” Just—I know that makes me sound really up myself. 

Hannah: It doesn’t though.

Stuart: The point to it is that the project engages me at a certain value. Below that there’s not enough in it for me. They’re just, it’s not an exciting enough proposition. Because also I know that whilst they’re looking at it, I know what it was going to need behind the scenes to get it to where they need it to be. All of the organising, all of the planning, all of the things, the dotting and the crossing of the eyes and the tees. And if I can make it work on their budget, I’m excited. If I can’t, part of my brain is like, well, part of the solution to this problem is they don’t have enough money. That’s, you know, I’ve calculated this problem from all the way around. Is that a fair price? Relatively speaking, yeah, that’s in the region of fair. Okay, can we achieve that on that budget or not? Or they’re so far divorced from where their budget is that I haven’t even got time to explain to them why their budget is so little and I will just wish you a good day if I think somebody could be talked into the correct budget and this is why you’re solving a problem. You’re not selling anything. Stop selling things people! You’re solving problems. That’s all you are. Sit down with an interested face, ask lots of questions, figure out what you can do to solve the problem. Apply your matrix of money, uh and pricing, and then that’s it. That’s what we can do for you for that price. Silence. Sit there. Sit on your hands. Every part of your being is going to want to justify. Shut it up.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Stuart: Dig your fingernails into the palms of your hands. Bite your tongue. Curl your toes up. That social shame of I’m going to just self combust because I’ve said something and they’re not speaking.

Hannah: That painful silence.

Stuart: But they’re thinking. And the more thinking time you give them, the better chance you have of getting a win because as soon as you start talking again, they go from thinking to listening. Different parts of your brain, completely different. They’re starting to now process again and you’ve just diverted them from listening to your price. So even on a cognitive level, the worst thing to do is to give somebody a piece of hard factual information and then completely keep talking at them.

Hannah: I’m going to make a note of that, Stu. I never stop talking. So, it’s going to be a bit of a struggle.

Stuart: Give them your price.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: That’s your price. Then shut up. And then if there is a power game to play, be comfortable in the silence coz the other person may be going, “He who talks first—wins”.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Sorry, loses. He who talks first loses. And they might be playing that. I will play that right out the door, into the lift, down to the car, and away home. I haven’t spoken to my wife for two weeks until I say yes or no. Just like,walk out the room and let them be like “where’s he gone?”. 

The takeaway from that is if you have genuinely looked at their problem and you believe you can help it at the price point that you feel comfortable at, then work with the person because through your endeavors you can show them your value and increase your value, perceived value, in their business to them by pointing out the deficits in their budget once they start to trust you. So don’t, I’m not saying, charge through the nose for everything you do to everyone. Do a few pro bono works if they’re exciting. I’ve done work that I’ve found exciting at almost no income for the time expended, but I just wanted to add them to the experiences of doing those jobs and being involved in those projects. But by the same token, you’ve also got to charge and have a sense of what is appropriate for your time to be diverted away from your own particular needs and projects then charge accordingly and usually small businesses are terrible at charging enough.

Hannah: So that, I think we’ve done such a fab job—hopefully there’s some information there that you’ve found useful. We’ve given them a lot of info but also it’s just all really really valuable stuff. And for me this subject is something that I’ve still struggled many years later and still continue to some degree to struggle with. 

Stuart: Well, so what are your takeaways? What are your thoughts?

Hannah: So my takeaways were top tips. No, I’m not the top tips. I’m takeaways. Be quiet, Hannah. I’m so keen. I’m galloping to the end without doing my bit. Um, so yeah, the things we’ve gone over really, but pricing is filtered through our self worth a lot of the time and it mustn’t be. We need to take away the fact, no pun intended. We need to remove ourselves from the value. Our price, what we charge for the service that we deliver is not based on what we value ourselves at as humans.

Stuart: When I first started, I would have Stuart who set the prices and Stuart the salesman and I would talk about our pricing and our prices as if it was inviolate. And I would have to go and talk to the board to get a pricing variation.

Hannah: Oh, that’s good.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: You can blame other Stuart.

Stuart: Well, no, I just used to say, well, our pricing menu allows for this, but we don’t have that kind of flexibility. I’d have to go and have a conversation about that.

Hannah: Ah, yeah, I like that. I really like that. That’s another good tip.

Stuart: Even if they think you’re only a one-man band, how do they know you don’t have other people?

Hannah: You might have a friend in your head that you have to have a chat with. I have quite a few of those, actually. Anyway, carry on. Sorry. And time blindness. Don’t forget people, time blindness. Or our tendency to have that. Some of us have that and it can affect your value. You might, as I have done in the past, you might quote an hour or two, but it takes you three weeks, then you’re screwed really. So, um, and rejection sensitivity dysphoria complicates negotiations. So remember, it isn’t personal. If they look shocked at your price, it’s not because you’re overcharging. It’s because they haven’t got any money. 

Stuart: What if they were shocked because they couldn’t believe how cheap you were and you misread it?

Hannah: Oh yeah. Well, there you go.

Stuart: How much? Oh, well, I’m really sorry. No, no,no. You’re fine.

Hannah: And also, you know, take a deep dive into what is the going rate in your industry. Do your research like Stuart said, and then base your experience, the services that you offer, etc., etc. Base that on the research you’ve done or pick a midpoint or if you want to be the upper end, whatever. Um, but then I found that if you then doubt what you’re charging, you can remind yourself it’s the going rate in the industry, you know, because if they try and haggle with you, you can just say that is what anybody will charge you pretty much. Up a bit, maybe down a bit, but you know,and lastly from a takeaways, we just all need to stay aware that we have a tendency to undercharge and, you know, a lot of us are coming out the other side of that or have already come out the other side of that but there will be loads of you out there listening that are still kind of like I charge £5 an hour. You think that’s okay? no it isn’t times that by 10 or whatever it is you need to charge to. Like Stuart said, to live the life you need to live right.

Stuart: I’ll have a conversation with you that will change your price.

Hannah: Oh my god, literally a one-to-one with Stu. 20 minutes you’re done. So Stuart tips. Got any tips?

Stuart: Well, the first thing is put all of the work that you do in your diary, okay? And not only record what you’ve done, but record what you thought you were going to do it in. So, when you look at your diary, you can go, “Oh, that job took six hours and I quoted four.” Okay. So, the next time I do that job, I’m going to have to quote, “I did learn some things and blah blah blah. I’m gonna have to quote at least five hours”. And then,If the person says no, you think to yourself, dodged a bullet because I have not given away a free hour. And that’s the shift in your head. Tracking your hours is not keeping a slave devotion for accounting purposes. You can see without a question how people value your time and how you value your time. So keep track of your time.

Hannah: Nice.

Stuart: Number one, I would also suggest and depends on your pricing model, depends on a few things, but add additional 20% to your pricing for two reasons okay I’m talking mostly to a UK audience but apply a different percentage in your own region accordingly because in the UK VAT is at 20% across the board pretty much not for everything but pretty much let’s just assume is 20%. Now, if you’re growing your business, at some point you are going to cross the VAT threshold, which is, I believe, £125,000. 

Hannah: Think so. Yeah, that would be a nice problem to have.

Stuart: Well, yeah. Now, the point to this is everyone getting to that threshold has this problem. Do I add VAT or do I include it in my already existing pricing structure? And they only reach that problem when they hit the £125,000 or close thereto, turnover in a year or 12 months. So why not eliminate that problem by charging that 20% up front anyway? And it will be an early buffer against price mismatch. And as you get better at pricing, therefore, you’ll be more efficient, but you still keep the 20% because guess what? You’re going to cross that £125,000 threshold and it will be of no consequence because you’ll be able to price absorb it. And at that point, you’ll be big enough to then work out pricing strategies to ameliorate any further impact.

Hannah: That is really, all of your information, all of your advice is awesome. But that is particularly good.

Stuart: Last few,three, things. They’re fairly self-explanatory. Script pricing conversations ahead of time. I’m not saying that you read from a prompt every time that you speak to someone, but get used to saying the words and believing them and being convicted in them is 90% of getting rid of imposter syndrome because if you believe what you’re saying, you’re pretty much certain that the person opposite you is going to. So, just script those conversations and say them. Practice saying them. Say them into a mirror. If you don’t like looking in a mirror, say them against a wall. But get the muscle memory going in your face to say the right thing at the right time because our brain can suddenly go squirrel and you like, “What was I talking about?” If your brain knows the path that it’s going to roll down, it’s more likely to go there. So, practice that. 

And the final two, sometimes you can do a discount, but don’t rely on discounting. Don’t make that your primary marketing advantage because somebody with deeper pockets will come along. Somebody who can underprice you, doesn’t have the overheads, doesn’t see all the problems that you see. You know, I’ve had somebody who was a customer of mine waste disposal and he said, “I can’t compete against the guys who are fly tipping coz I have all of the overheads.” And I said, “Yes.” So, you make an absolute song and dance about how your disposal is correct and legal and you’ll give a waste transfer notice and make that your number one message in your marketing. And he did. And it seems to have stayed the flow of customers. I’ve not heard from him. I gave him that for free. 

Hannah: And he’s—now he’s a millionaire somewhere.

Stuart: Millionaire. Brilliant. And the final one, review your pricing and do it quarterly. And you might be, even just to the point of like, has recent economic events have overtaken my pricing models. Um, just keep an eye on them because those margins can erode almost unseen. I halved my rate during COVID mostly just to keep the doors open. And it sort of washed its face for a while and then we increased it back but we didn’t increase it back fully and then just recently increased it from where it was pre-COVID. Um, and I still think we’re maybe a little light, a little cheap, and we may review that, but I’ve got other projects at the moment. The point is, keep your eye on your margins. Keep your eye on your pricing. Final thing, go into your subscriptions and cancel any that you’re not using. You won’t need them. You won’t miss them. Oh, what about all the stuff I’ve?…you won’t. Forget about it unless you need it for compliance. Say goodbye. They’re out of the cupboard.

Hannah: You probably don’t even know you’ve got half of them. I did that the other day. I was like, ‘Calm App’. Not looked at that in about 400 years. How much is that costing me? Good lord. It’s actually quite good. I realize I’ve been paying for it for about five years.

Stuart: The point to it is don’t rely on anyone else to gauge what you’re worth. Don’t look at other people’s pricing points and go, “Oh, well, I should be charging more, less, whatever.” Go away and have a frank conversation with yourself about what you want out of your business and what is going to require you to get there and then judge whether or not you’ve got the energy versus the hours that you’re going to have to work to reach that income at the price point you’re currently charging and let that also factor. That was what I realized is I was not charging enough for the energy I had.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: You know, 25 hours productive a week. Anything more than that and I start to erode. So you know I have to make those the most productive hours of my week and they can come any day but they’re enough for a living wage.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: You know, that’s just one of my businesses. The other businesses don’t require as much of my time but they don’t earn as much as my consulting business. So it swings around about isn’t it?

Hannah: It is. And it’s like—Yeah. Exactly what Stuart said. You have to fit your model to your life. And that’s, I preach about that all the time.

Stuart: Yeah. You know we all have different ideas of what successful looks like? We all have different successfuls. Some of it is not working a 40-hour week. Some of it’s, you know, that work/life balance hopefully is all of our success barometer because it’s vital, especially if you’ve got a bendy brain.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely.

Stuart: So, that’s this week wrapped up. I’m hoping that between our random ramblings and lived experience, you’ve learned something and there’s possibly something that you can take away and add to your own arsenal of business tools. If you’ve liked what we’ve said, then maybe like, share, subscribe, do all of the like, share, and subscribe things. Um, leave a comment. We’d love to hear from you. If you want to be a guest, email hosts@oddcast.com and let us know what you’re thinking. We’d love to hear it. We’d love to hear your comments

Episode 31: The Executive Dysfunction Diaries: What It Actually Feels Like

Everyone talks about productivity like it’s a simple matter of effort, focus, and a decent to-do list. But for a lot of neurodivergent people, executive dysfunction feels nothing like that. It’s not laziness, lack of ambition, or not caring enough. It’s knowing exactly what needs to happen… and still feeling completely frozen, while your brain wanders off to learn about hinges instead.

In this episode, we get into the lived reality of executive dysfunction — the intention-action gap, task initiation paralysis, time blindness, boredom, perfectionism, overwhelm, and that very specific flavour of shame that turns up when your brain just nopes out. We talk about what it feels like when you care deeply, want to do the thing, and still can’t seem to make yourself start. And we get honest about the cost of forcing it, the aftermath of pushing through, and why “just try harder” is truly useless advice.

We also share what actually helps: motion before emotion, buffers, visible time cues, doing the hard thing first, switching tasks instead of fighting your brain, and learning to work with your wiring rather than punishing yourself for it. Because executive dysfunction isn’t a personal failure. It’s a real, messy, frustrating experience — and if this one hits close to home, you’re very much not the only one.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:52 – Topic of the Week – Executive Dysfunction Diaries: What it Actually Feels Like.
00:01:05 – Topic introduction – deep dive into how executive function failed us in our lives & businesses
00:03:20 – Model of overwhelmed brain executive function brain nopery and raw dogging it on caffeine
00:04:30 – The intention/action gap… how we fail to start and how i t erodes your confidence
00:07:35 – Tips on how to get started, eventually, because we expect our brain to nope
00:10:18 – Accepting the reality you face and not fighting it, tickle your brain
00:11:13 – Task initiation paralysis – starting but not being able to begin
00:12:14 – The footbath effect…
00:13:35 – Hannah’s lady brain off picking the flowers…
00:14:10 – How do you know if anyone’s run a marathon?
00:14:21 – No emotion before motion and the wall of negative reaction to the task
00:16:19 – How do you do that? The voices in Stuart’s head
00:18:25 – Hannah’s verson of the Sgt Major.
00:18:47 – The overwhelm of everything being important all at once and where to start
00:19:41 – Stu’s “roast dinner” approach to tasks analogy
00:21:00 – What comes first? Hannah’s triage process and forcing herself to eat the frog
00:22:38 – The devil is in the detail – and details are also a rabbit hole
00:24:31 – Time blindness – Hannah and Stu’s nemesis and the word “JUST”!
00:27:38 – When asked about timescale – “What would you say”? and “idiot tax”
00:29:24 – The emotional friction around tasks and the battle with boredom
00:30:30 – The burden of perfectionism, detail and high standards
00:32:00 – Things Stu has learned the hard way of being at the cheap end of the market
00:33:33 – The dangers of “Boredom” and the effects on the ND brain
00:35:50 – Perfection delay – unable to finish as the project may fall short of perfection
00:36:41 – Shame, anger and frustration as your background noise
00:39:27 – The cost of “pushing through” and forcing yourself through executive dysfunction
00:44:10 – The aftermath of completion – mourning the end of a great project
00:46:24 – Hannah’s biggest client red flag and how to avoid ALL project red flags
00:48:45 – Roundup – H’s takeaways, amd S’s hints and tips
00:54:06 – Get in touch, let us know your thoughts
01:00:00 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

THE ODDCAST MANIFESTO

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – A range of resources for neurodivergent business owners.

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Stuart: The Business Oddcast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Business Oddcast. I am your host, Stuart Morrison, and this is my other equally talented and awesome co-host, Hannah Logan.

Hannah: Hannah Logan Yay me and you.

Stuart: So, we’re moving over to every other week with the Oddcast. Um, so we’ll be back to backing with resources and a plethora of blogs.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Stuart: Well, here we are at episode 31 and perhaps you would like to tell the listener what the title of today’s episode is and what the overall theme is going to be. 

Hannah: So, we’re coming to the end of this month which has been themed all around executive function. And that brings us to the title of today’s episode which is the executive dysfunction diaries. What it actually feels like. So, there may be some crying, some tearing out of hair,

Stuart: rocking,

Hannah: some definite rocking, some flashbacks followed with some resuscitation. It’s going to be a deep dive because you know what, Stu, everybody talks, don’t they? When we’re on social media and stuff, everyone’s talking about productivity. It makes me twitchy when I read that word and especially when it comes with consistency as well.

Stuart: Oh, yeah.

Hannah Logan: Because no one really talks, or not many people actually talk, about what happens if you have a brain that just nopes. Like, “nope”. Yeah. Today, brain, I’m going to write this fabulous thing that’s got to be in by tomorrow midday. “Nope”. Okay. You know, shit. 

Stuart: Basically, so um, you’ve got to go down this rabbit hole about hinges. That’s where we are today, Hannah. Stu, we just need to learn about hinges. That’s vital right now. Not that thing you’re getting paid to do.

Hannah: So, yeah, with a nope brain. Um you know, we’re going to cover today how executive dysfunction isn’t laziness because I think a lot of us have had that shame haunting us. It’s not a lack of ambition. It’s not a lack of caring.

Stuart: Should just try harder.

Hannah: Yeah, that’s the answer, Stu. It literally is. Just make an effort, Stuart.

Stuart: Just make an effort.

Hannah: It’s actually what it is, it’s caring deeply. It’s knowing what needs to happen, but still being frozen, unable to move in those moments. So, actually, this episode is all about the lived experience of that, the sort of internal mechanics and the emotional weight and that sort of comes for people like us with getting things done.

Stuart: Oh, can you just put your mind, listener, in the brain of somebody with executive dysfunction and then realize that that person has to turn up every single day for a job.

Hannah: That’s my only reaction is just laughter. I must have said this before but I used to work in an employed job. You know, poor Hannah in her 20’s. And some days I was on fire and people were like, “Oh my god, she’s going to get team member of the month.” And the next day I’m just like, “Oh, somebody sucked Hannah’s brain out of her ears and now she’s just dribbling and pretending to work, but actually she’s just on Facebook.” So that was literally the ‘nope’ version and the kind of hyperfocused crazy productive version.

Stuart: If you want a visual for what’s going on inside that neurodivergent soup, imagine your computer is doing all of the background tasks and the cursor is spinning but is not responding to anything and you know that if you try anything more you’re just going to slow it down even further and maybe even blue screen to death it.

Hannah: Oh my god. Yes. It’s so like that, and you know Stu we’ve both had years and years of kind of “what if I go away and come back”? What if I just drink four coffees back to back and just burn this with caffeine? Yeah. And none of them, we all have our different strategies, you know, we’ll share some of these today. 

We’ve all created strategies that probably will help generally, but also are more personalised to ourselves. 

Stuart: Um but yeah, it’s difficult and yeah, you’ll have if you are neurodivergent, you will have your own version of what this looks and feels like. So don’t take this as verbatim. It’s more a shared lived experience. 

Hannah: So there we go, on that note. I’d like to talk about the intention action gap. You know, that giant void between “this is what I’m doing today” and this is me actually doing it. Um, so we can want something and still be unable to initiate it and oh yeah, you can have the longest to-do list in the world and it can be all deadline tomorrow with a tick tick tick in your brain and you’re getting a sweat. 

Stuart: The sweat’s creeping up as you’re like, “Oh my god.” 

Hannah: Um, Yeah, sorry, I just got a little flashback there. Um, so for many neurodivergent people, that gap between intention and execution is not, as we know already, it’s not motivational. It’s neurological. It’s not that we’re just not trying hard enough. It is the way that our brains are wired. And that gap can feel, and I’m sure we’ve all felt this before, can feel really confusing, but also hugely self-eroding. Because what happens when you’re sitting there and you can’t get it done? You’re getting those little voices aren’t you? Or I certainly do. You know? “You’re useless. Why can’t you do it? What is wrong with you? It’s not complicated”. You know, because these aren’t necessarily complicated tasks. So, it’s not a helpful mindset to be in.

Stuart: Any gentleman that’s ever had the effect of stress and alcohol on their body at a time of passion and certain things, certain systems don’t kick into place and the drawbridge doesn’t swing the way you want it to swing and then suddenly it’s all embarrassment and No, no, it’s not. No, it’s not you. It’s me. It’s that it’s in your brain. It’s just like you just can’t get engaged with the process and your brain is just off, you know, doing something completely different, but whatever it is is not what you want to be doing.

Hannah: I’m so close to going off on a tangent here, but I’m not going to. I’d get sued if anybody heard it. Um, yeah, back to

Stuart: Sorry. Sorry. The adults in the room.

Hannah: All I can see now is a drawbridge.

Stuart: adults are back in the room.

Hannah: So, you know, this is about knowing what to do but not being able to start. It’s that kind of feeling stuck even when the urgency, you know, the water’s lapping at your feet. Um, and it’s your internal “go” that just feels broken. It’s like you’re kind of trying to start the engine and it’s like, you know?,

Stuart: Yeah, it’s like you’re turning it over and it’s just not catching. I I know that completely. And you try to get started even if you think you’re starting Oh, you’ll circle the drain. You’ll push things around. You’ll dip into your emails. You’ll go back to your notes or whatever the task is. You kind of circle it. You box it in. You define it to the nth degree, but you just cannot get started.

Hannah: That’s so true. And, you know, I’ve had conversations in the past where you’re made to feel like it’s a lack of willpower, you know, if you just ‘knuckle down’. And I hate that because actually when the switch is turned on, I’m like a dog with a bone, you know, that kind of I keep going and keep going through the wee breaks and the need to eat and sleep and, you know, you come to and it’s like two in the morning. I can do willpower. Um, I know at the end we’ll do the round up and all the rest of it, but what do you find works to make something change?. There’s always that shift in your head where suddenly you’re like, “Oh, now I can do it.”

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Do you have any, you know, I don’t know, tips and tricks or any kind of I hate to use this word, “hacks” that can share?

Stuart: life hacks.

Hannah: Life hacks. I hate that. 

Stuart: Um, do you have anything that you use that helps you? Because, you know, we’re adults. We know that things need to get done in as much as you can have all the excuses in the world and all the reasons in the world, but life still needs to happen.

Especially in a business, especially with customers, paying customers, deadlines. What are your kind of things? Do you have anything that can trick your brain by distracting it for a moment? What do you use? Because I’ve got a few things. I’m interested to hear yours first.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, it’s a bit like when my dog gets something precious in his mouth and he’s like gripping it so tight that you can’t get it off him. But then I can get a couple of tasty biscuits out and I’m over in a corner like “over here” with the tasty biscuits and he forgets for a moment. That’s it. So, for me I do that with my brain. Firstly, I and you taught me this, I have buffers of time. I’m never an hour before the deadline like, you know, freaking out. I’m never like that because I allow a lot of time because I know that this will happen. I expect it sometimes to happen or more often than not in my case. 

The other thing I do is I don’t fight it. I used to get so frustrated and it’s so stressful. I think “oh okay, my brain doesn’t want to do that one today”. So I either have a complete break and go and have a cup of tea and read a book for half an hour or I just switch to a different task and I wait because often I switch to a different task and then this might sound weird. I see the projects as blocks in my brain because they’re blocks on my calendar.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: So if the block is sticking I kind of like in my brain move it. Okay, that’s not at the front now. And the other one drops in and I work on that for a bit and then occasionally the old block will drop back in and I’m like “oh okay you’re ready now to write that blog” and so my brain is very good at switching quickly between tasks.

Stuart: Oh, right.

Hannah: So, I do that and I accept it very quickly. If I can’t do it, I don’t really fight it. I move it to a different point in my day or whatever. 

Stuart: Oh, I have found that accepting your brain will not start the task and just parking it and going and doing something else, whatever that else is, is the key to letting my brain off the hook enough that it will go, “Oh, well, maybe we’ll do it. Maybe.” It’s like the toddler in a car seat. You know, the more you fight it, the worse it’s going to be.

Hannah: They go all rigid and you’re trying to get their legs bent. Yeah. Oh, I was demonstrating that looked a bit violent there. I’ve never been violent to a toddler and a car seat. I just want to put that out there.

Stuart: I used to tickle if

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: They go floppy and they wriggle back away from it. which is bending them in the middle.

Hannah: A genius. So, we are full of tips!

Stuart: Yeah. You got to tickle your brain.

Hannah: I love that. I really love that tip. And that kind of takes us into the next point really, which we were talking about. Well, the next point is task initiation paralysis.

Stuart: Yeah. So, this is slightly different from getting going. This is you’ve got going, but the ratchet isn’t quite clicking in. It’s not quite. You really want to start and your brain is committed to starting and you’ve started and then you find yourself pushing pixels around the screen going, “I have no inspiration”. I’ve got all the motivation, all of the mindset, no inspiration whatsoever, unable to take advantage of this block of time that my brain is straining in the slips to get going with. And your brain’s just like, “I don’t know what you want to write. What was that thing you were thinking about the other day? just well thanks brain”.

It’s just like a void of air. You look inside it the inspo box and you’re like oh no preparation information in there completely empty or you’re sitting there and you’re doing and you’re you’re starting and you’re in those it’s like a little bit like you’re in the foot bath before you get in the swimming pool. Right? So you’re in your trunks, you’re in the foot bath and you can see the swimming pool and then your brain goes, “Did you lock the car? And it doesn’t matter what you do. You can start heading towards the pool and think, “Oh, I’ll deal with that in a bit.” No, but have you locked the car? And then your brain’s like, “Oh, I can’t remember locking the car. Oh, no. All I can think about is locking the car.” And so, you’ve got to go out of the swimming pool, get dressed, go to the car and make sure it’s locked. And it is locked. It’s always locked. And you’re like, and then you go back. And then on the way back, you think, “Oh, I might have a cup of tea. I haven’t got any biscuits. I’ll go and get some biscuits and then whilst you’re out getting biscuits, you meet somebody who then talks to you for half an hour and you have a really fascinating conversation. Meanwhile, the work is not getting done and your brain is still going, “Yeah, yeah, no, we’re on task. We’re on mission. You just need to get all the biscuits, get the cup of tea, and maybe change your socks by now.” And whilst you went out and were wearing your outside trousers, you’ve now got to put your comfy slumpfies on whilst you’re inside now. So, if you can just do Oh, look, it’s lunch time. Oh, and so goes the day.

Hannah: It’s completely, so, I always visualize my brain as like this kind of pretty lady in a field full of daisies just skipping around picking them like doing nothing. Stop picking the daisies and do something fucking productive. But I quite like it because it’s almost like your brain is just like, “Yeah, just chilling, man.” It’s like the hippie zone of brains and you’re like, “No, no, I need you.” You want to shake your brain and kind of get it you know, “pull yourself together”.

Stuart: The one that I have learned and that I’ve kind of, I used this for when I was in training for the marathon. Um, how do you, here’s a question, how do you know if somebody’s ever run a marathon?

Hannah: Because they tell you about it.

Stuart: Exactly. That is it. Within five minutes.

But this is the thing I’ve taught myself. No emotion before motion. Okay. And that means I’m not allowed to have an opinion on how I feel about the idea of going running, okay? Until I’m actually running. At that point, I can have an opinion about it. But any opinion before I’m actually in my shoes out the door is counterproductive to my overall goal. And I kind of use that with the task initiation because when you start a task, sometimes you don’t see the end of it. You can’t see the end of it. You It’s by doing the task you work out what resolution is, especially like with marketing or business stuff. You’re solving a problem, but sometimes it’s the investigation of the problem that leads you to the answer and you need to get started, but you don’t want to go towards the problem because your body’s going, “Oh, that’s fear and rejection and hate.” And you remember the last time that you did something like that for a customer and they said that horrible thing afterwards or they said nothing which was even worse. And your brain is feeding all this to you and it’s building up that kind of wall of emotion of like, “Oh, this is going to be painful and horrible. and like wading through treacle. No, stop that. That’s not just catastrophising. It’s more like painting it in a negative shade before you get going, expecting it to go wrong. And that is just the weight of that. Oh, the weight of it. 

So, the rule is no emotion before motion. So, until I’ve got started on the task, I’m not allowed to have an opinion on it. And then nine times out of 10, by the time you’ve started the task, your brain has forgotten that it had a different kind of opinion and then it gets kind of sucked into the minutia and the detail rather than looking at the whole of it and going “oh this is a hiding to nothing”.

Hannah: So I love that advice because it sounds absolutely sterling. But, I mean, my brain has an opinion on everything. How does one turn that off? What is your strategy or I guess you’re more able to just kind of shove it out the way?

Stuart: This isn’t about shaming. someone. This isn’t about saying, “I can do it, so you can do it.” This is just imparting how I deal with this, and if it helps somebody, great. Then fantastic. Use it. If it doesn’t, don’t feel any shame that, oh, Stuart can do this. That’s not what this is about. This is just years of So, I’ve explained this before. Um, I’ve got various voices in my head. Now, that sounds crazy.

Hannah: I’ve got them too, Stuart. You are not alone.

Stuart: But one of my voices is a sergeant major. And you do not mess You know, if the sergeant major says you’re getting out of bed and you’re not going to be a whiny bitch about it, well, I have to listen to the sergeant major. This isn’t about being unkind to yourself. This is not about beating yourself up with a thousand adult voices as you were growing up as a child that were always telling you off. This is the stark realisation that that person, that sergeant major, you told him or I told him that there was a goal and that goal had to be achieved at all costs. It was primary. So the whiny nuisance Stu that turns up going, “I don’t really want to do this”. Yeah. Sorry. You’re in the army now. Get going. And maybe it was coz I had a fairly militaristic father. He wasn’t in the army, but he worked for the Ministry of Defense, and his job was all about detail and procedure and process. So you had to do things a certain way for my dad. Uh and then I went into engineering which is all about procedure process you know because my dad was an engineer. One of my first apprentice masters because he was really good, he took no bullshit whatsoever and I know that for the best outcomes for me I need that otherwise I will be a whiny bitch in the corner doing nothing.

Hannah: As you’re saying this I’m realising I do have my own version of that actually because there are times where I do have that. I definitely have the multiple voices in my brain. Um all my little friends. No, sorry it’s not like that.  I do have one that’s like, “Okay, Hannah, you just need to crack on at this point.” So yeah, actually, I get that. I can completely get that. But that then brings us into the next one. So you’ve got started and then it’s the overwhelm of everything. Oh, it’s brutal, Stuart, because everything feels equally important, right? Even if you know in your heart that it isn’t, but actually the executive dysfunction removes that kind of prioritisation filter because they’re all lined up in a row and you’re trying to work out, okay, and your brain’s trying to go, “well, which one’s due first or which one fits my brain best today”? And it’s just utter chaos. And I think when everything feels urgent, it’s really emotionally loud. It’s like a bunch of monkeys in your brain like “me me me me me me me me me me me me” over and over again. 

Stuart: Um but you got to approach it like,  again the things that I’m revealing.

Hannah: I love it.

Stuart: So I approach it like I approach eating a meal, right? There are certain high value items on that plate that I will definitely be eating like a roast. Let’s take a roast. You’re eating the roast. You’re going to eat the chicken or the meat or whatever. That’s all going to go. Yeah, the roast potatoes, definitely going to be eating the roast potatoes, the sprouts. I quite like sprouts, but they are sacrificial. Uh carrots. I really like carrots, especially if they’re nicely roasted and parsnips, god, maple roasted parsnips. 

But that’s the point. They’re on a list. And there are high value ticket items that will get eaten. And it’s like that with jobs, you know? There are high value jobs. Like when I build a website, I love doing the design bit. I hate writing the spec. So I’ll get the spec written before I do the design because then I get the spec done and I’ve got all the time to do the design. Put on a bit of music, get the atmosphere right, maybe light a joss stick, just get the, you know, just set the mood and have a bit of loud music on and get my brain going. Um, but that works for me. But I get it, you know, if everything has the same value, how do you know which bit, you know, there are certain processes that start at a certain point, but what do you use?

Hannah: So, yeah there is that difficulty of kind of what comes first and I can get stalled in that. I think a lot of us do and we can relate to that. But for me often actually a bit like what you’ve just said really if I’m really frozen and I’ve got my own version of the sergeant major in the back of my brain like “Hannah just fucking do something” then I think this is true. I think which client’s going to be the most pissed off if I miss a deadline? Because actually, if I have a pissed-off client, I can go into proper shutdown. The RSD kicks in and I’m like, “I’m useless to everybody”. So, and I’m lucky enough that none of my clients would ever get pissed off with me even pushing a deadline at all because they’re not like that because I pick my customers wisely. But I kind of think, “okay, which one would matter the most if it slipped a bit deadlinewise” Or like you just said, isn’t there that thing about eating the frog?

Stuart: Oh, eat the frog. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah: Like pick the one sometimes and actually it’s what my brain needs. It’s a kind of kick in the bum.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah Logan: To my brain. I pick the one that I least want to do and kind of really just do it. And almost be a bit aggressive with my brain about like and actually when I get so much dopamine from starting on a project that I’m really putting off, even if it’s just a tentative you know, ‘read the brief again’ type moment that is sometimes the bump start my brain needs to crack on with it. Um, I find it difficult sometimes when there’s a lot of detail in a task. 

Stuart: I never actually thought of myself as a details person. I thought myself as somebody who like to know things to be but it turns out I am a deep deep detail person which for certain tasks is great for other tasks is a nightmare and I will ask a thousand question questions because I want it to be right and you’re paying me to do the absolute very best to the top of my skill and experience and best practice. And if I quell my questioning because I just think it’s either socially inappropriate or you’re going to get pissed off at me, then I’m not doing my job right. And sometimes it can be that that stops you because you’re like, “Oh, I’ve got to now go and have 20 questions with a customer and they’re going to try and interpret it.” So you try and write the questions in a way where it’s a yes no answer or a very unambiguous answer. And that’s what I need. I almost need somebody to tell me what the outcome is and just say and the details I leave to you. Brilliant.

Hannah: That’s perfect. That is perfect. Like a best case scenario. Um I also think, so I don’t know if you have this Stu, but with an executive dysfunction there is a toddler inside me that goes well if I can’t do all of it I’m not going to do anything. And It hits the cancel button, it gets its toy, it throws the toy across the room and it starts screaming and banging the floor and Yeah, I just sabotage it all.

Stuart: Yeah. That one really sort of lands that you’re like, “why is my brain like that”? Why does it need to do it all or nothing? You know, my dad used to say there’s an easy way and a hard way and I used to say there’s my way. Used to freak the absolute bejesus out of my dad.

Hannah: You were right though. Um timeblindness.

Stuart: I am the world Olympic champion for time blindness. If there is anybody who is going to look at a task and go yeah that’s about 10 minutes.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart Mrrison: That’s or all the opposite of that. You look at a task and go oh that’s about four and a half hours. No no it isn’t Stu.

Hannah: No

Stuart: just a couple. Just Yeah probably. Maybe. Let’s get started. No. It’s four hours. What? What? It’s not. It might be an hour. No, it’s definitely four hours. 

Hannah: I won’t go into the ins and outs of it because it’s been a brilliant project, but somebody asked me to make some changes to their website and I was like, “Yeah, I reckon that’s a couple of days.” Is it like a couple of months later?

Stuart: They’re the worst.

Hannah: Just, and I don’t mind, so I’m not saying this. in case you’re listening. I think it’s been a fabulous project. Um, and I’m supporting you all the way. 

Stuart: But, so I used to do this all the time. Frustrate the absolute ever loving frustration out of my team. I would talk to a customer, they’d tell me the job, and I’d come to the team and I’d go, “Oh, it’s only a couple of hours.” And they’d look at it and go, “That’s at least two days work, Stuart.”

Hannah: Optimistic.

Stuart: Um, yeah, but you know, we can cut a corner here. We can take an edge off there. They didn’t know about this, you know. And they’re like, “No, Stu, that’s still a day and a half of anyone’s life. Why have you quoted, even neurotypicals are terrible at this because how long is an hour? You tell me how long an hour is. If you sat in a dark room without a watch and said to somebody, “Count down an hour.” And you are allowed out at any time. The person closest to an hour wins. Everyone would fail because most people will underestimate how long an hour actually is. And when I quote things to customers, I look at it and I think “four hours”. And then you think, well, no, I’ve got to do that and I’ve got to do that and then I’ve got to do that. And then you start thinking, actually, it might be a bit more than four. So what I do is I keep notes on my projects uh within our ticketing system. So when somebody says, “Oh, can you just” and they use the word “just”, “Can you just do some free work, dude?”

Just is a word that needs to be banned from quotation. “Can you just do?” No, I can’t just. I can definitely do it, but it’s not a ‘just job’ because just jobs are like, “Oh, just just an extra hour.” And it’s not. It’s never an extra hour. It’s never an extra 10 minutes. It’s always an extra four days.

Not their time. They don’t care. Yeah, and I stop doing it with my team because why am I minimising their good efforts? Oh, could you just do a small job. Doesn’t matter whether it’s a small job or a big job. It’s still a job that needs doing and it will be however long it is. So, I think we do ourselves a disservice with time blindness. But I also think we should just acknowledge it as general, you know, acceptance in society that Somebody says, “Oh, that’ll be an hour.” Yeah, it could be anything really. Hour, two days. They’re the same. 

Hannah: So, I don’t know if this happens to you, Stuart. I’m guessing probably not because you’re a bit better at this stuff than me, but sometimes I have completely no idea. I mean, when we’ve worked together, you say, you know, this is the bit that I’d like you to do or if you’re interested to do it, how long will that take you? And I always say to you, don’t know, Stuart. What would you, if you were doing it, would you say? And you always nail the time and I think that comes with a lot more probably a lot more experience of doing similar tasks.

Stuart: I kind of do it all day every day. Yeah. And when I look at a task, I always add on extra as well because I know I’ve got this fatal flaw of underestimating it from a I don’t want to charge the customer more than or quote more than it’s actually going to take. And I’ve used a few strategies over the years, but you know, when a customer asks you to do something, and you’ve done it before, you kind of know what your work rate is and what it’s going to take. And to a certain extent, you also look at the task and go, how much do I want to actually do that? You know, it’ll take two months.

Well, there is no shame in outpricing yourself because you just don’t want to do the work or the work is not the type of thing you want or even the customer. What they call it is, uh, “idiot tax”. I was trying to think of a nice way of saying it, but it’s not tax. It’s idiot tax. You’re dealing with an idiot. You’re going to tax them in the hope that they don’t go with you. 

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. But if they do, well, you know, they’re paying idiot tax. That’s brilliant. 

Stuart: And I’m sure I’ve been charged idiot tax over the years. So, you know, swings roundabouts. 

Hannah: That leads us on, I think, to the next bit really, doesn’t it? Really, the sort of emotional friction around tasks. I know that I get a lot of that. 

Stuart: We kind of started with that because that’s one of the things that getting started can be a problem that emotional friction around just the start of it, you know, the dysregulation around that. Um but it can happen during the task.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. And it kind of carries that emotional weight for me. There’s a real battle between boredom because of some stuff I’ve committed to but it bores the living daylights out of me. And I know it’s a job that I could do with my eyeballs shut and yet it doesn’t give me that sweet sweet dopamine that I need. Um, and then perfectionism, which we’ve touched on already, but the mix of boredom and perfectionism is brutal because part of my brain’s like, you’re gonna you’re going to mess it up, Hannah. It’s going to be shit And then the other part of my brain is like, I don’t care because it’s so boring. Just do it badly and get over it.

Stuart: Do it badly and get done. 

Hannah: crack on with it. And the reality is, and you know I really believe this. I hope it’s not too bold a statement. My version of shit is generally pretty average to good.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Because my perfectionism is a curse. So I’m not selling it as anything better than that. It’s a painful thing to live with especially when I’m working and stuff.

Stuart: If you could switch it off, it would be great.

Hannah: Oh my god. Because sometimes I remember once writing a blog for a client and it was a client through another client and in the end it was taking me forever and I actually missed the deadline and the person I was directly working with just said, “Hannah, I I don’t understand what you’re doing.” And I delivered it eventually and she said, “It’s fabulous, but you’ve delivered fillet steak.” And the brief was McDonald’s and you’ve spent over your time, which means you get paid you’re not getting paid for all your time and you’ve created a perfect blog where actually they just wanted an SEO keyword stuffed crap blog really.

Stuart: which I refuse to do by the way. Yeah, but partly that’s surely that’s personal and professional standards as well. You know, there’s a certain standard below which you will not go. And if somebody comes to you for McDonald’s, they came to the wrong place.

Hannah: Yeah. I’m not a fast food outlet!

Stuart: No, but you see that’s why you charge accordingly. You know, if they want fast food, charge them fast food prices. But if you want fillet steak from a three star Michelin chef and that’s what you’re going to get.

Hannah: That’s the end of the market I want to be in.

Stuart: All right, I’m going to give some business guidance here. Things that I have learned the absolute hard way. As a small business, being at the cheap end of the market is a hiding to nothing because there’ll always be someone bigger than you with a deeper pocket who can offer a deeper discount and an easier customer service or something that you haven’t got. Okay? 

Now, you think about this in terms of car manufacturers. You want a handbuilt sports car. You’re not paying off the shelf production line prices. You want a Savile Row suit, you’re not paying off the shelf, off the peg retail, high street prices. The reason it costs more is because there is more skill, care, and attention put into a handcrafted product. And as a small business owner, you will be more likely to be handcrafting your work than you are pulling a lever and just pumping it out at the other end. And if you are not pricing enough, then you won’t have enough hours in a week to earn what you need to earn. And that’s where you should work. Like if you’re thinking about leaving your job, look at your household budget and think to yourself, whatever that budget is, can I live on 25% less? Whatever that looks like. I’m, you know, you do you. Because if you can reduce your household budget and you’re going self-employed, that reduces the strain on you for producing an income.

Hannah: How does this affect you, Stuart? What’s your feeling? So, for me, boredom, my brain does not tolerate boredom very well at all.

Stuart: Oh, I’ve often said a bored Steuart is dangerous for the world. I’m not kind to anybody, especially myself, if I’m bored. So, if I’m not stimulated enough by a task, and if I’m stuck on a task, there’s no stimulation other than, you know, self flagellation, me just telling myself I’m an idiot. 

Hannah: Um, if I get stuck, then I start to feel deeply restless and I actually start to stim. 

Stuart: I get really twitchy and kind of antsy and I need to do something and I don’t know what to do and it all becomes a bit overwhelming and horrible, but actually in a deeply sort of restless physical way, like a boiling pot.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Just there’s a lot of energy in there and there’s

Stuart: Yeah. And there’s nothing you can do to release it. Or the worst one is being somewhere where you’re waiting for something and having no ability to input any or affect any outcome change. So like a waiting room. A waiting room or you’re on hold.

On hold is a big one. Oh, or you’re just waiting for someone to respond to an email. or to a message and it’s not coming and you can’t progress. It can feel like you’re plugged into the mains and you’re fizzing with electrical energy that you can’t do anything about. 

Hannah: Do you know what I do when I’m on hold?

Stuart: What’s that?

Hannah: Other than get really internally angry, I start to sing my own hold music and I put in my words. I start to see because it’s the same. I’ve got PTSD from some of that hold music because I’ve been through situations in my life where I’m just listening to that same freaking tune for hours. So annoying. Um yeah, I start singing angry songs like, you know, “pick up the phone” and just kind of this is really weird. It just gives me the utter rage and I think for me it’s that lack of control. I really can’t cope with things where I’ve got no influence on them at all. 

Um perfection delay. So I do this all the time. I can’t finish something because it’s not perfect. or I’m so worried about it being perfect that I stall it or I leave it at 95% because I’m so terrified that if I get to 100 it won’t be the shiny fabulous amazing thing that I need it to be. So I just put it off. Kick it down the road a bit. Have you had this? You’ve shown somebody your work. You’ve got to the point where you’ve shown them work and they’re like, “It’s fantastic. Oh, it’s amazing. Oh, this is brilliant.” And then you just spend all the time going, “Yeah, that didn’t work there. and that that bit a bit short and I should have done that there and that is a repeated work

Stuart: And you, it’s like you go around and point out all your failures.

Hannah: You can’t stop yourself. You know, why are you doing this? Right, the next one. Shame as the background noise. Yeah. Is that something that haunts you?

Stuart: I have guilt over things not being as good as they should or things that I’ve left undone or things on the to-do list. that have been on the to-do list for a long time. But I don’t tend to feel shame. Shame isn’t one of those emotions that is on my pallet. But you see the thing is I have real electronic problems internally understanding where I am at any one. It’s like spin the wheel of fortune on my emotions. I went to pick up a car the other day, brand new car, got really angry. Well, I was stressed over the picking up of it and all the rest of it and what should have been a really, Like I got there, I was all like, Oh, I’m all sweaty and “give me the new car.”

Yes. And the thing is for the person on the outside, they’re like, “Why is he angry?” And it’s like, “This is a nice thing.” And I can be angry for many many different reasons. Frustrated, stressed, hassled. But the shame of all of that. Oh, no. I don’t have that. I don’t carry a lot of shame. It’s mostly because I’ve got a terrible memory and forget to be ashamed.

Hannah: It’s nice though to forget and to be fair, I don’t carry any shame. I have had a lot of therapy to drill out the shame. I just don’t have that Protestant work ethic. There’s a lot of shame in and around that kind of like you have to work hard or you don’t work hard. You know, there’s a lot of that, especially in the hustle culture. It’s baked in that you Oh, well, you didn’t do an extra hour on a Saturday morning at 6:00 a.m. Why? Why? It’s like because I’m not an idiot.

Stuart: Coz I’m not a robot. I’ve got I’ve got a solution to this. Yeah. I’ve got a solution to every single personal problem that you have right now. I can solve it. With one action. Right?

Okay. This and you’re going to expect something, you’re going to expect something big, aren’t you? 

Hannah: You’re going to say something violent. It feels like it might be something violent. 

Stuart: No. No. No. This is so easy. Right. On a clear night, go out in the garden or go out somewhere where it’s dark and look up at the stars and think to yourself, those stars are going to be there for billions of years after I have been forgotten about and put all of your problems in context. Like we are monkeys on a ball of rock hurtling through space. We are space ghosts in meat suits.

Hannah: My meat suit needs a trim. Yeah. So, what is the cost? I know what the answer to this is. The cost of forcing it? So pushing through on executive dysfunction. So it can work. It can work but it’s a temporary fix. I mean my dissertation was very successful and driven by days of no sleep and lots of caffeine and at some points lots of beer as well. Um so it did work as a temporary solution but it is not a strategy. Um coz when you force executive dysfunction, you’re just pumping it full of adrenaline and urgency and you’re applying a really horrible pressure to yourself. And that, you know, we’ve talked about this bit already. That can work, but it doesn’t work for everything. And it comes at a really high price because then you forget that it kind of massively spikes your stress. It gives you post task exhaustion. Um, it kind of ruins your capacity. You know, if you push on through even though your brain’s noping it, then that’s going to burn you badly. That’s going to burn you out. The next day your brain is no good for anything more than toasting crumpits. Eating them, maybe.

Stuart: This is what really annoys me is you go the extra mile, you put the extra effort in, you ring yourself out to a nub to give the person the very best, usually better than they’ve asked for, as we’ve looked at. Um, and then the following day, you’ve got no productivity. It’s almost like I go back to my previous comments about charging enough. If you are charging for 4 hours worth of work that burns you out for an entire day, that’s 12 hours you’ve got to charge for. Just doing the maths there for you folks. And don’t beat yourself up and be guilty because your instrument, your brain requires that. Work around it. How do you alleviate that? How do you eliminate it here? Can you outsource this? Can you get somebody else to do some of the heavy lifting? Um I’ve done this many, many times. I take on a freelancer for a short project because there are certain tasks I know will just absolutely leave me flat and I might as well just pass them off because I just haven’t got the mental bandwidth and budget to have all of the time off. I’m going to need, post-project. And these are all of the things that you learn about yourself and you just accept. I stopped feeling bad about oh I need to outsource that rather I thought oh that cost is worth the not just the hours that they’re going to do but the hours it will take me to recover from what they’re going to do

And it makes it so much cheaper and of course you retain better functionality, better regulation, better everything. It’s like if you can run a marathon you can get there. But if you tried to do that every day, how long before most mortal people’s bodies would start falling apart? And it’s like that with your brain. You can do it once and the next day you might have a bit of a brown out. You try and do it again. Well, that leads to overwhelm and then there’s burnout and then you know all of that can take months to unwind. So be kinder to yourself is basically the message.

Hannah: Yeah, that’s a very important message. And I think that that brings us into the cost of forcing it as well. You know, the cost of forcing that and making you do the task that you didn’t think you wanted to do comes with a cost. 

Stuart: I don’t think that it’s “oh, today I’ll do it because I’m feeling upbeat”. That can lead to bad places because you get away with it. And there is that cost that is unseen. It’s almost like in business there’s this concept of uh technical debt. In other words, you can ignore upgrading. You can ignore certain things that you’re not going to buy. But at some point, that will come back to bite you and you will have to spend even more money to move the goalposts up to where it needs to be um going forward. And that technical debt is very similar to neurodivergent burnout debt. It will build up and at some point will come for you. And that moves us into the aftermath of completion. Do you ever get this right? And this happens to me all the time. I’ve loved a task so much. I’ve loved a job, a project or whatever and you’ve been on it and you’ve loved it and it’s almost like you’re mourning it when it’s no longer there. It’s like I really just want another one of those projects, please.

Hannah: Yeah. Those sweet, sweet projects that just flow through your brain. You don’t get any task paralysis. They’re just like nurturing.

Stuart: I often think that business is one of the hardest things that a person can choose to do, but one of the most freeing things because you do get to find out who you really are and what you will put up with and you have to take those audits of “why didn’t I like working on that”? That was a job that I should have been ideally suited for, but the customer made it bad. That’s the time where you should keep a document of red flags. The things that have not been what you wanted them to be for whatever reason. And there’s no shame, guilt, or bad feeling to be had because look, I just didn’t like his brisk manner. Great. If you’re talking to someone and they’re asking for a quote and you feel like they’re talking over you, put the idiot tax on it. 

The point to it is you get to choose who you work with. And yes, there’s a financial imperative, but that’s why you should be choosing very carefully and have a filter in place because not all money comes with the same energy. And if you’re having to work twice as hard mentally and build in time off and buffer days, then you’re not working at your most efficient. So, understanding what those red flags are and getting clear on them and being honest with them to yourself and the customer I think that’s the key to it because we’ve all done the jobs that we’ve hated. We’ve all done the jobs for the client who seems to be intent on stopping you from doing your best work. I rarely encounter them anymore because I give them the benefit of my opinion.

Hannah: Do you know what the biggest red flag is for me, Stuart?

Stuart: What’s that?

Hannah: The clients that know more than I do about what I do. You know, for me you start to explain you know I’m writing the website copy or whatever and I say “oh this is the way you know I would recommend and years of experience” and they’re like “oh no I want to do this” and I want to say “okay so how many years have you got in marketing and sales and copywriting” and they say “oh none, but I am quite a good writer I quite like doing a bit of writing in my spare time”.  “Do you?” Because this isn’t like writing a poem for your mum. This is UX driven SEO driven website outcome results that will convert clients. Oh no, I know. And oh my god, at that point I just want to punch them in the face, but actually that is a huge red flag. If they know more than I do, either I’m going to say to them, look, you clearly are more qualified than I am in my job and I’m going to get rude. And I never want to do that. Or I just think this project will be a freaking nightmare because they think they know better.

Stuart: They’ve hired an expert and they know better than the expert. That’s where you get your spreadsheet of red flags up and you put that as one line in. And then when you have a conversation with someone about a job, go and read your red flags and check in. Don’t try to remember them. Don’t try to have a feeling about them. Go in and read your red flags that you’ve written there as a younger version of you previously has sent this message to the future you that’s now sat there of “do not work with this type of person”. So if somebody says this, make sure that you explicitly state that in whatever hard, fast, and concrete terms in the quote so they don’t mission creep it and write down all of those things and eventually they’ll become second nature. They’ll just do that and that’s exactly what I did. I used to write down all of the things that would turn a three-star customer into a one-star customer because usually they’re for the best interests of the project. They’re not just because you’re spicy brained.

Hannah: No, they’re boundaries, right? I mean boundaries, everyone needs boundaries.

Stuart: Go and listen to our other podcasts. We talk about boundaries.

Hannah: I went on and on and on about them, didn’t I? In that one, I went off on a rampage. Right. So, yeah. What’s next?

Stuart: Well, we’re at the end. We’re going to do some rounding up.

Hannah: I like round ups. Bit like can you imagine me as a little sheep dog galloping? I can’t. No, you can’t imagine it. I can barely walk some days. Yeah. Sorry.

Stuart: A sheep unicorn.

Hannah: Oh my god. A beautiful sheepy sparkle horse. Yeah. Yeah, for anybody that’s only listening, I’m wearing the most magnificent. It’s probably aimed at children, although it is an adult size. No, a sparkle horse magnificent unicorn sweatshirt. That is with rainbows and stars. It’s gorgeous. Every time I wear it, people say, “Oh, I love your sweatshirt.” And I don’t know if they’re doing that like they think I’m a bit special and not in a good way or whether they really do believe. I don’t really care. I don’t give a shit. I love it. I absolutely love it. So, yeah. Takeaways.

Stuart: Takeaways. Hannah, what are your takeaways? and tips.

Hannah: Top tips. Um, I think just, you know, we’ve said it repeatedly, just remembering that executive dysfunction is a thing. It’s the way that our brains are wired. It’s not a moral thing. It’s not because we’re shit Um, it’s just the way our brains are wired. Go with it. Don’t fight it. Um, get some strategies and tools in place like we’ve covered here. Really, know yourself.

Yes. Absolutely. That and do not like if shame turns up, kick it in the face because it just completely worsens the paralysis that you’re going to get from executive dysfunction. Um, time blindness. We talked about that. I’m the worst. I’m never going to get better, Stuart. I’m just not. I’m so shit with time. I have no idea.

Stuart: Yeah, but the point is, if you know that, then just put in place whatever guidelines and assistance and accommodations you need for yourself and then roll with it. My attitude is that I am always going to be time blind. I will always attempt to bite off more than I can chew. I will always underestimate how long a task will take. However, on a long enough timeline with the swings and roundabouts with good customers. Sometimes you charge them four hours and it takes six. Sometimes you charge them for four hours and it takes three.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And on a long enough timeline, it’s a wash. It works out.

Hannah: It all works out in the end, doesn’t it? And my last takeaway, although there were loads of good ones, I won’t rattle them all off. Um the last one is that yeah, just remember that if you push on through and fight it and deny it, then it comes at a massive cost. And you’ve got to remember, like Stuart said, really, you’ve got to feature into your planning that if you burn yourself out, you might be paying for that for a day, the next day or longer. It depends on when that burnout comes. If it comes on top of other burnouts,

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. then you’re you’ve taken yourself down. At that point, you’re like out of the race limping. Your job is to get through every project and out the other side with as much energy intact and and not scramble your brain for too long.

Hannah: Yeah. Otherwise, you’re just in a corner rocking. What about tips? Due, you got any tips?

Stuart: Motion before emotion.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: How you feel about something should be immaterial to whether or not you start something. And I can say that and I know there are going to be people throwing stuff at their device or screaming at me. And it’s not that it’s easy. That’s the point. It’s not that it’s easy. It’s that there’s a little bit of self-love almost that you know it’s for the best. It’s that toddler and adult scenario that I’ve mentioned before. The AUDHD the autist is the adult always dragging the ADHD toddler to the table and saying you’ve got to do your colouring in. Don’t go over the lines. And of course when you get to the table there’s way too many crayons and some of them are broken and you try and line them up and just go through my infant school trauma. And so, I think if you do have that feeling of overwhelm take a moment, go and walk around the block, come back, make a cup of tea, sit down, and have a think about which is the task that you’ll just fly through and go and do that. Be kind to yourself. I’ve tried this in the past, visible time reminders, clocks, and alarms. I still use alarms and my diary to tell me to, you know, kick on sometimes like that time blindness. You’ve been writing an email and suddenly you go, I’ve been writing this email for an hour. An hour writing a single email. What are you like? Get it done. And when you finish something, have a little celebration. Yeah. I always have a choccy bar.

Hannah: Ah, yeah. My 4 a.m choccy!

Stuart: 4 a.m. chalky bar. Is that why you’re so large, Stu? No, that’s why I run marathons. 4 a.m. snacking. Um, and yeah, eat the frog. Do the hard task sometimes. Come in. first thing on a Monday, do that really hard task because guess what? The rest of the week, you don’t have to carry that around in your brain. And sometimes just setting the load down can feel like the rest of the world and all the other tasks are so much easier. So acknowledge your own internal landscape, work with it, and don’t feel any shame if you have to put something down halfway through because of stress, overwhelm, whatever. But try no emotion before you get started and do the hard thing first. And see if it works for you.

Hannah: Nice.

Stuart: And that’s it really. Those are the sort of things that I use. And I don’t say that I’m perfect at any of this. Don’t think I’ve often said do not use me in his example as a life to lead because it is chaos.

Hannah: Stuart, I just want to put it out there that we got a testimonial the other day or a very lovely comment to me and it described you, Stu, and it wasn’t me as a ‘guru’. I would say you are actually completely freaking magnificent at the fact that you have you’re so the way that your brain works. It’s incredible. it’s not to say you don’t go through the shit bits, but actually you just come up with processes. You just have that ability to kind of okay that didn’t work. And you create, it’s the engineer in you. You create these kinds of tools and you’ve got so many really good bits of advice on this stuff.

Stuart: Well, thank you for that. I will acknowledge. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate

Hannah: She loves you. I think

Stuart: if you’re out there and you’re feeling like you’re struggling and you’re alone, get in touch. Please get in touch. We’re here to help. We do this almost as a public service.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. Um, because we love it so much.

Stuart: You know, if you are out there and you’re struggling and you are alone, don’t be. Reach out. Get in touch. Send us an email. It’s very easy to get in touch with us. All of our contact details are on our website and will be linked from our Business Oddcast. So there’s no excuse if you want to be in touch and you want to hear your opinions expressed here. We’re more than happy to either have you on as a guest or read out your comments. So do let us know anything you’re thinking and if it’s coherent and uh family friendly ish. 

Hannah: ish. Yeah. It doesn’t need to be too. It doesn’t need to be too PG.

Stuart: I mean just don’t send us a long diet tribe full of swear words about us.

Hannah: Yeah. Please don’t be mean to me because the RSD is brutal and I will respond and you may. I’ll just set Stuart on to you.

Stuart: You may learn a word or two. Um right. So that’s us. So that’s us another podcast. Don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe. Like we said, get in touch. Do all those wonderful things. Click on the buttons, do the various things. Love to hear from you. Love a comment, anything. Any last words, Hannah?

Hannah: So, next week we’ve got, you know, following on from this topic, we’ve got a fabulous blog if you want to get yourself a cup of tea, a handful of biscuits. Don’t be mean. Don’t just have one. No. And we are talking about working with your brain, not against it. So, it’s a good one. It’s basically a cheat sheet for um you know, your brain is like noping and you’re like “do it brain. Wake the fuck up brain. You’re in my head and I’m the boss of you”. And this is a blog about how to work with it. Actually, I didn’t really sound like I was working with it. I sounded like I was shouting at it but yeah working with it is much easier. Yes don’t fight it

Stuart: yeah

Hannah: so that’s next week

Stuart: Oh fantastic that fits in perfectly because if you are suffering from ex executive dysfunction and unable to get the task started that should hopefully give you some further tips and insights as to uh how to get past all of that.

Hannah: Yeah, we’ve got you. We’ve got your back.

Stuart: We have. So, that’s another podcast over and done with. Thank you very much for listening. Uh ladies and gentlemen, and anybody of any stripe who wants to be in touch, please do so. We look forward to hearing from you.

Hannah: Do it. Like and share. We love you.

Stuart: All the very best. Bye-bye.

Episode 30: The Inbox Is Lava

For something that technically takes a few minutes, the inbox has an impressive ability to feel like a full-blown psychological event. One email becomes ten decisions, three imagined consequences, and a low-level sense that you’re about to be told off… even when it’s just “checking in”.

In this episode, we unpack why the inbox feels so overwhelming for neurodivergent brains — from context switching and decision fatigue to RSD, avoidance spirals, and that very specific dread of seeing a new notification and immediately assuming the worst. We talk about the “avoidance snowball”, the shame loop of delayed replies, and why small admin tasks can quietly drain more energy than the actual work.

We also get practical: triaging your inbox, switching off notifications, using templates and systems to reduce cognitive load, and setting clear expectations so your day isn’t hijacked by everyone else’s priorities. Because the goal isn’t inbox zero — it’s regulation, containment, and making admin feel manageable again.

If your inbox feels less like a tool and more like a threat… this one’s for you.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:01:17 – Topic of the Week – Protecting Your Energy When The World Wont Slow Down
00:02:20 – Topic introduction and opening remarks
00:03:32 – The maintenance phase – ensuring your spoons are protected
00:04:13 – Stu’s Running Analogy – Eliud Kipchoge vs Usain Bolt
00:05:50 – The world demands consistent output, it doesn’t accomodate varying energy
00:07:00 – Brownouts – not quiet black out, the “just-about-functional” twighlight
00:08:20 – 24/7 always available and “chewing the cud” rumination, weight of masking
00:09:47 – Stu’s Superman analogy – the ultimate in masked superheros
00:10:53 – The mismatch between fluctuating capacity and cnstant demands.
00:12:24 – The “one-size fits-all” model for small business output & drama magnets
00:14:14 – Being a people pleaser and “throwing yourself on the grenade”
00:17:46 – The guilty pleasure of people pleasing; Adrenaline & Dopamine double-tap
00:18:19 – Energy boundaries vs emotional boundaries – valuing your own boundaries
00:19:00 – Alexithymia and interoception enter the chat…
00:19:50 – No. End of sentence… and all of the feels.
00:21:04 – The consequences of not protecting boundaries and regulating your energy
00:23:28 – “I don’t have capacity” is a comple te sentence, protect your energy
00:25:39 – The enthisastic wonder of the world can be draining
00:26:59 – Life is like cricket…
00:29:00 – Some people accept “no”, some push back and that’s a red flag
00:29:55 – Deciding what isn’t worth the cost anymore, letting go of the “shoulds”
00:31:57 – I would help you, but I don’t want to. Seeking immediate approval
00:33:24 – The poor returns on people pleasing – defining the rules of a relationship
00:35:09 – How do we protect our energy? Avoiding life in perpetual brownout
00:37:56 – Planning “firebreaks” in your schedule
00:39:21 – How energy shows up for the neurodivergent and benefits of self employment
00:42:23 – Health can impact energy and enforcing boundaries
00:43:16 – Stu’s “Fuck it” formula – Living life without apologising for your boundaries & energy
00:49:50 – This episode’s take aways
00:52:08 – Stu’s controversial opinion about Linked In
00:52:37 – Top tips – apply at your own risk
00:52:25 – Like, share and subscribe
00:58:00 – Next Weeks Topic: In Charge But Can’t Start – Executive Dysfunction as a Leader
00:59:04 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

THE ODDCAST MANIFESTO

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – a range of resources for neurodivergent business owners.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
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Stuart: The Business Oddcast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Business Oddcast. It’s episode 30 and this month we are talking about executive dysfunction. What it is, how it appears, how you perhaps work with it, work around it, and deal with it. Uh, some lived experience, some interesting anecdotes, and I promise you some wild tangents. Ladies and gentlemen, I’m Stuart Morrison, and this is my fabulous co-host, Tangent Queen Hannah.

Hannah: Tangent Queen Hannah in the house. Um, fantastic new month. 1st of April.

Stuart: Well, it’s not the 1st of April, but you know, April the 1st. Yeah. Uh, executive dysfunction does make you feel like a bit of a fool.

Hannah: Yeah. I’ll try not to cry, too.

Stuart: So, what is the actual topic of this month’s Business Oddcast?

Hannah: Okay, Stu. So, the topic this week is what I’ve called the inbox is lava. So, you know, it kind of does what it says on the tin there. Do you remember the ‘floor is lava’ game where I used to play it with my step brothers and my brother and you’d end up with like a sofa cushion wrapped around your head when you’re trying to get off the floor and it all quite traumatic quite honestly.

Stuart: I used to play trying to get from my bed to the sofa down the stairs without touching the carpet. The carpet is lava.

Hannah: How did that work for you?

Stuart: I broke a door off its hinges.

Hannah: So, bearing in mind that, you know, the broken door off the hinges, we are likening that little memory, that little traumatic memory to the inbox, to our inboxes. So, um I think for a lot of us, the inbox can feel like it needs a big old sign on the door that says, “Do not enter.” You know, here be whatever that phrase is.

Stuart: Here be dragons.

Hannah: Here be dragons. That’s the one.I was trying to be funny and I couldn’t remember the second half of it.

Stuart: Hippie dragons.

Hannah: Oh Jesus.

Um so admin, right? Admin, which is basically what the inbox kind of is in many ways. To many it would just be a small thing that you just need to chip away at during your day. But actually to a lot of us, it feels utterly bloody enormous. Because the inbox isn’t just messages, right? It’s not just hello Hannah, how are you doing? You know, sending some good vibes your way. It’s literally tone, expectations, micro decisions, invisible social regulations, and this episode tackles the kind of digital paralysis. Um, without shaming avoidance, by the way, because if you’ve got to avoid your inbox, then I’d recommend you don’t do it too long. My daughter’s got about 76,000 unread emails in her inbox.

Stuart: Oh, I’ve got about that.

Hannah: See, that literally knowing that somebody I gave birth to and one of my awesome friends have loads of unread emails just messes with my brain to a point where I want to break into your house and read all your emails for you.

Stuart: Yeah, but the unread ones are the ones that are just processed like you know your WordPress website blah blah blah has been updated. What’s the point? I don’t even want to read it. I just mark them as “read file”.. done.

Hannah: I can’t though coz then they show up as a number that you’ve got.

Stuart: No, mark as read then they go away.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: That’s why you’re winning a bit better than I am.

Stuart: No, I’m not. I tried inbox zero. It didn’t work. So, it went from inbox zero to fuck inbox zero. Set fire to inbox zero in about a week.

Hannah: So, oh well, I’m going to share some of my weird inbox um things, but needless to say, Every Saturday, generally a Saturday, I go into my inbox and there’s never that many in because I am a filing well, I was going to say filing queen, but I think I’m just a filing lunatic. I go in and I sort it by by sender and then I delete or unsubscribe all the s*** that I get sent and then I kind of Yeah, I won’t bore you with the details, but you can see where I’m going. There’s a lot of OCD going on there for me.

Hannah: Um, but the first point really is kind of why small tasks when it comes to the inbox can feel absolutely massive. And the bottom line is that an email isn’t one task. It just totally is not one task. It’s multiple cognitive steps that are all layered together in a kind of often really painful way. 

Stuart: Um I can give you a top tip for this straight away.

Hannah: Do it.

Stuart: Ok, well it might not be a feature on all inboxes, but on the Google inbox, um you can snooze an email.

Hannah: Oh, what a sender? Just snooze a sender?

Hannah: No. So, like I was sent an email for a support request and it was an unurgent support request. I must stress that. And I responded as soon as I saw it to the person saying, “I’ll pick this up Monday.” Then when I came back out into the inbox, I just clicked snooze and told it to hide the email until Monday where it will show up at the top of your um inbox again.

Stuart: Oh, so I punted it to Stuart on Monday and he’ll deal with it on Monday. Don’t have to think about it. That’s completely genius coz Stuart on Monday might well have got his shit together a bit better than Stuart on Friday.

Because this is just so much that when you look at it, you’re like, why didn’t I know all this stuff? But I will have the spoons and the focus to deal with it on Monday. On a Friday, I don’t. I am basically the caretaker today. On a Friday, you know it we’re recording this on a Friday and this doesn’t feel like work. This is a day off. 

The technical work of having your head in code, moving servers, thinking about all of the impact of all of that can just feel overwhelming. And by the time I get to Friday,and as I’ve aged and gone through several burnouts, my brain just goes, I can’t cope with that five days a week. So, Friday will be a creative day. Uh, it will be a writing day or a whatever day. So, if something comes into the inbox that is high digit frequency stuff, then I will go “Yeah, Stuart Monday can deal with that”.

Hannah: I think that sounds incredibly wise. I am 100% putting that in my brain, saving that for later. 

Stuart: like anything, you know, if you haven’t got the energy for it, why do it badly?

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And badly for me means consequences for customers. And I’d rather avoid a consequence for a customer by just delaying it, especially when you can communicate that. And I appreciate that some things are emergencies and they need dealing with, but not everything is. Triage your inbox.

Hannah: Oh my goodness. If you take one thing from this podcast today, it’s that! Triage your inbox.

Stuart: Stick around. There’s plenty more. There’s so much more.

Hannah: I mean, so for me personally, one of the things about my inbox that feels the biggest is the context switching. So for me, because I’m basically the person that can’t say no, I’m like the chair of the parish council. I’m a mother, obviously. I’m, you know, I’ve got my personal emails all coming into the same inbox with different accounts. It’s mayhem. Um, I can sort them, by the way, for the different accounts obviously, but there’s still all dropping into the same bucket. 

But for me, if I see a client email, then my brain says, “Well, is that the client that really prefers to be answered immediately or is that the client that’s pretty chill and won’t be there on a Thursday?” You know what I mean? So, it isn’t a case of  “there’s an email, open it up. What shall I do? Process it, file it, stick it on for later, whatever”. It’s a scanning, triaging thing of just scanning through the emails first and thinking what’s most important. Oh, but I must reply to this because I still got that to do. And it’s this constant tick tick tick of my brain analyzing every element. So, um that takes a lot of toll emotionally. It starts with all the decisions and trying to prioritise and it’s chaos.

Stuart: Well, let me offer you some further chaos.

Hannah: Thanks. I need that.

Stuart: For me it doesn’t start by looking in the inbox. It starts when the notification arrives. Then you get what I mean? Who these days has their phone ringer on? Nobody. Nobody has their phone ringer on.

Hannah: No autists!

Stuart: No. No phone ringer on and I have no notifications, especially for emails. That’s because I have to know before I put my head in the inbox that I have the emotional regulation and the energy to deal with whatever is in there. And so I tend to not deal with my emails first thing in the morning because it will just run away with my day.

Hannah: When somebody says, “Well, you shouldn’t answer your emails first thing in the morning.” My brain just goes, “But I’ve got to because people are waiting.”

Stuart: Yeah. Well, if they’ve waited overnight, do you know what I mean? They can wait for a few hours more. Um, and customers all know, and again, your mileage vary, but customers know that if it’s an emergency, they text me. They email me, but they text me, “Can you look in your inbox?” At which point, I will look in my inbox. But that anxiety over a notification, I’ve had!

Oh, here’s some confessions. I’ve had notifications that I’ve got an email from a customer and instantly get that gut churning, sick feeling. Oh my god, what’s all this about? They’re going to be really angry with me. They’re going to be really annoyed with me. their website’s probably down and it’s not. It’s something fairly benign and they’ve just texted me because they just want a quick response. and all of that pent up. It’s like a damn burst coz you’re holding all that stress in. Pointless waste of all that energy. But no matter how much I try and train my brain to go, “it’s all going to be all right. It’s going to be fine”. 

How do you know it’s going to be fine? Coz everything up to this point has been fine. You have coped 100% with every crisis you’re put in and you didn’t die. So, but that anxiety over that initial notification when you spot it or you know you go in your inbox for one email and you see six and you’re like, “Oh no, no, I can’t deal with it.” So, I’ve set rules around it, which is I will answer emails at around about 10:00. I’ll have a quick look just before lunch just to make sure that there’s nothing sat there waiting for me. Also, messages from my developers, uh, see if they need anything whilst I’m going to be away for an hour. Um, then again in the afternoon, probably not the immediate time I get back into the office, I’ll get on with something and then maybe look around about 2ish and then again before the end of the day, 4ish. So, I’m only checking my emails two or three times a day unless I’m waiting on a client for a specific email or a supplier for a specific email and then I’m living in the inbox. I’m staring at the inbox.

Hannah: sitting on the edge of it like just waiting. Refresh. Refresh. Refresh. I’ll go make a coffee, on my phone. Refreshing. Refresh.

Stuart: But I can’t get past it, you know? It’s like my brain needs the answer to unlock it doing anything else. It’s just ridiculous. This, you know, like Is there anything worse than having a meeting at 2:00 in the afternoon? You’re not getting anything done in the morning. You’re just thinking about the meeting and when you come back after lunch, you’ve got an hour to waste before the meeting. And it just feels like you’re constantly just moving stuff around on your desktop.

Hannah: In complete contrast to your brilliant strategy of kind of checking at certain times and not constant other than like you said, if you’re waiting for a specific email, In contrast to that organisation which I’m now going to try and take on board myself. I can’t go into the following day with any emails that I haven’t dealt with. So sometimes I’m dealing with emails at 11:00 at night. And then when I reply, I schedule them for a random time the next morning so that my client doesn’t think I’m a freaking lunatic emailing at 11:00 at night.

Stuart: No, I don’t care anymore. I just don’t. “ I saw your email at 10:00 at night and I decided I’d respond to it because I just needed it out of my head.” I’m not going to tell you that.

Hannah: I’m still pretending I’m normal Stu!

Stuart: But I’m not looking at my inbox at 10:00 at night.

Hannah:  And that you know that I’m not advocating, by the way, anybody listening watching, it’s a stupid freaking plan to be going through your emails at 10:00 at night. For goodness sake, just go and watch some shit on telly. Do not be looking at your emails. But I have the kind of nervous system probably or certainly brain where if I know it’s in there and I know it’s something I could tick off the to-do, list the demand list in my brain and I’ve got some energy and I often haven’t but if I’ve got some energy at that point in the evening then I’m doing it. Because it’s one less thing. Coz I live in a constant state of a tick box of lists in my brain.I 

Stuart: I tell you what it’s Like in my brain, I don’t know if this is the same for you, it’s like walking up a down escalator.

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: You never never get to the top of the to-do list coz there’s always somebody somewhere putting something else on it. Would you do this? I just thought I had five minutes to myself to do my self projects.

Hannah: Yes. Oh my gosh. It literally is that. And sometimes I can be heard in the Logan household muttering to myself, life’s just a fucking conveyor belt. A painful hamster wheel where like you keep slipping and there’s spiky bits on the floor. Sorry that feels like Hannah’s having a breakdown in the middle of the podcast.

Stuart: Just let the toxin out. Let it out.

Hannah: It’s just one of those days. Listeners, readers, one of those years. Lives. Oh my gosh. So, that brings us to the third point really, which is ‘the avoidance snowball’, as I like to call it. So, suddenly you got 20 unanswered emails and you can’t answer any of them. It’s like you’re just sitting on the floor crying surrounded by emails and do you get this? The shame of it.

So you’ve got the stress of it, but also you start shaming yourself like like “oh I’m just such a bad person. I can’t get this shit together. Why can’t I get my shit together to just answer a fucking email?.

So, the thing, you know, we’ve kind of established a bit that actually when it comes to answering emails quickly, because of my neurosis or my obsessiveness on this subject, I am generally pretty good. But recently, I slightly dropped the ball and I found myself, I think it was yesterday probably, emailing or replying to at least six emails to do with, it wasn’t to do with work, it was to do with stuff with my parish council and things. And everyone I was like, “I’m so sorry for the delay in my response”. And in the end, I was cutting and pasting the same intro to my email “so sorry. It’s been one of those weeks”. And they just think, oh, and as you touched on it, the shame. I know that no one cares, you know, everybody replies,” oh, don’t be silly, Hannah. It’s only been 24 hours”. And yet, it’s not really about other people being cross at me. It’s the internal shame. It’s, you know, I’ve got a thing in my head that’s saying “it’s not good enough. Hannah, normally you reply within, you know,, within half a day at least”.

Stuart: Oh, the sergeant major.

Hannah: Yeah. Yes.

Stuart: Oh, the sergeant major leaning across your shoulder with his cane under his arm going, “Hm, when are you going to answer?”.

Hannah: I think the point is as well, it that the longer that avoidance drags out, it just increases that dread, doesn’t it? And then, you know, it’s in a cycle of dread, avoidance, dread, avoidance. And often I find that I’m dreading something and then when I eventually do summon up the energy to reply, it’s not a problem at all. It’s been a total non problem

Stuart: Yes.

Hannah: So I’ve kind of put it off and put it off and I don’t know why because generally my emails are “did you do this?” Oh yeah, I did actually. I’ll send it across to you. That is that none of them are like have you found the cure for cancer? And I’m like oh shit I had but I didn’t tell anybody and now you know. None of those are life-changing dramas. They are literally general adminy emails that just require simple reply. Um, and the more I avoid it, the more that kind of backlog in your brain, that wrong way around conveyor or elevator. Um, the compounded guilt, the mental noise, the noise of an unopened email is literally like a windchime in my brain.

Stuart: Oh, yes.

Hannah: Multiple windchimes. And we know how we both feel about windchimes? That’s another episode, people. But yeah, we’ve both got an unusual windchimes phobia, and sneezing.

Oh my goodness.  I think if you’ve just thrown a shoe at whatever device you’re hearing this on, I think I said to you, Stuart, the other day, like if there is a hell, and who knows, we won’t get into that topic right here and now. If there is a hell, then it involves me sitting in a very slow moving car behind a caravan on an endless motorway with like 20 windchimes just jingly jangling in the back of the car. Holy crap. Can you imagine? Windchimes make me visibly angry and super anxious. I’m not going to go off on that tangent.

Stuart: I know what you’re getting now for your birthday. 

Hannah: You know what you’ll be getting back if you give me one of those.  I’ll be inserting it into your nostril if you give me a windchime.

Stuart: Um.

Hannah: It will come back at your head. Yeah. So, you know, In summary of avoidance, it just for me can create a fear of opening that inbox. And I think your tip Stuart on kind of turning off the notifications and actually allocating being in control of when you check them again. 

Stuart: Red rope around your time. Switch off the notifications. Put it in aircraft mode. Do what you need to do, but step away from the hurly burly.

Hannah: You and I are literally before and after, aren’t we?

Stuart: I have been there though. I have had every single notification. unknown to man. All of the apps, all I’ve got to have are all of the apps where people can get in touch with me. That’s why I’m not on LinkedIn so much. It’s just a bunch of people who haven’t got any work looking for work. I’ve got plenty of work. I don’t need to be on. It’s the classic. If you’re going to all the networking meetings, how busy are you really?

Hannah: That is a very good point.

Stuart: Oh my goodness. There’s nothing like telling a customer that they have to wait for them to respect your time. It very quickly marks out the customers that you want to work more with than those who don’t respect you. And respect is at all levels. So if I say to you, you’re going to have to take a ticket and wait, if you want me to do it, you’re going to have to take a ticket and wait. I’m not going to apologize for that. You wanted me to do it. There’s plenty of other people out there. I can put them in touch with you.

Hannah: That is really good advice. And in fact, in recent weeks, I’ve definitely been trying that on for size and it does work? It does work. That will come as no surprise to you coz you’ve been doing it for a long time. But it works because like you said, you know, somebody the other day asked me to do a bit of work. Old Hannah would have been like, “Oh, okay.” I’ll stay up all night and do it.” But actually, I said, “Yeah, sure.” But this week’s rammed for me, so it’s going to sort of end of next week.” At that point, they’ve got a choice. Oh, I need it quicker. Well, then I’ve got a choice. Do I move things around or do I let them find somebody else? Pulling myself out of what I was doing to look at an email and then deal with the pressure because there’s a little person in the back of our brain going you need to reply now otherwise they’ll see that you’ve opened it and then they’ll think you’re shit. So there’s all of that going on but there’s also the opposite of that which I touched on is if you’re waiting for an email you can’t get into the deep work because you’re waiting for the email.

Stuart: just task paralysis all around. 

Hannah: oh it’s exhausting and also if you’ve pulled yourself out of that deep work to answer or deal with that email and then trying to get back into that deep work because your brain is like, “Hang on a moment.” I was in this world and now I’m and then I was in an efficient email reply world and now I need to get back.” Oh, it’s.

Stuart: transition. You see, it’s a transition. Utter chaos. And if you’re no good with transitions and you’re expecting your brain to transition into email mode and back out of email mode like that, it’s always going to be a  hiding to nothing.

And it kills the momentum, right? Because sometimes when we’re, you know, we’re literally whizzing down the hill on a skateboard. Like, oh woohoo, I’m on fire. Oh, I had to stop. I had to fall off the skateboard and answer an email. Yes. Get back on the skateboard and start. Oh, if you fell off the skateboard, do you think you’re going to want to get back on the skateboard anytime soon?

Hannah: No, you’re not.

Stuart: No.

Hannah: Oh, and the cognitive residue. I hate the word residue. It feels a bit gloopy and sticky, doesn’t it?

Stuart: Yeah, it does.

Hannah: The cognitive residue of having to dip in and out and and change context on the work that you’re doing, the mode that you’re in, because my brain feels like there’s kind of a lot of different versions of me and sometimes I’m in like corporate well I try and avoid corporate Hannah because she’s a bit of a bitch. But you know sometimes I’m like smart sensible Hannah and I’m with a client or conversing with a client where they do expect an element of sensibleness about me. 

Good luck with that. How did I attract a client like that? Then I’ve got the clients where I can just be my natural born awesome self. Um and all of those take that kind of cognitive toll because you’re having to oh, which one am I in? Am I the one that swears a bit? Is that the mode I’m in? Or am I in the mode where I just need to say stuff like moving the needle and all that corporate shit. So, you know what I mean? You’re flipping between. It sometimes feels like, you know, which version am I? It’s like a spinning wheel of lots of different Hannah faces. Yeah. You’re not relating because you’re so much better than me at this stuff.

Stuart: I hear it and I have been there. And you’ve got different masks, and to a certain extent there is still some of that especially with new people who don’t really know me. I try and mask as best I can but it’s  like me going to a mask ball and carrying the mask around in my hand and occasionally dropping it on the floor. Occasionally you know “where did I leave it? Has anyone seen my mask? I put it down over here somewhere”. Um yeah I’ve got to point where if you don’t like it, leave. I’m not forcing you to work with me. It’s not mandatory. It’s not a government decree. It’s like, you know, if this isn’t a productive relationship, we’re both better off if going in the opposite directions. Of course, there will be guilt and shame in my head forever.

Okay. So, the next point is the constant containment of all of it, like having a tab open flashing at you, but you’re trying to get on with work and trying to not think about it. I mean, you know, we’ve talked about this hyperfocus. How as somebody who is perhaps more prone to dipping into the inbox? How do you contain it? How do you stop yourself from refreshing and checking your phone every five minutes or, you know, thinking even if you don’t check your phone, thinking Oh, I haven’t checked my emails for five minutes.

Hannah: Yeah. Um, the answer to that is quite badly, Stu. That’s how I cope. That’s what I do. That’s how I deal with it. It does occupy space in my brain all day if I’m honest. You know, when we finish this, the first thing I’ll do is check my messages on my phone and check my emails. It doesn’t mean that I will reply, but I will just scan them. I won’t open them, otherwise they’ll know. Okay? I will scan them.

Stuart: Let me ask you this. I kind of do something similar. You know, I don’t check my phone religiously, but if I check it, I’ve got to action it because otherwise it will be in my head . It’s like the noise increases tenfold. And if I know that there’s a message and I’ve not looked at it, that’s noise. So, it’s almost like I don’t need to know I’ve got any messages until the point I’m ready to actually respond to those messages if there are any. Yeah. H how do you deal with that?

Hannah: So I suppose I mean sorry this is not exactly answering your question but I suppose generally I have a feeling in my brain for for example if there was a massive project that I was right in the middle of and you know maybe I’m going to get an email about whether the site worked properly or whatever, then I would be more alert for checking my emails and knowing that I might have to respond quite quickly because it will be in my brain, oh, I’m waiting for that reply or I’m wait, you know, it’s a day where I know that a client is going to want me on call a bit more. To be fair, I’ve always been to my detriment a lot of the time, but I’ve always been pretty much incredibly organized because I’ve forced myself to overcompensate and go too far the other way. That’s an episode for another time, because the toll is just taken on me at that point.

Stuart: I get my stress from the unknown unknowns.

Hannah: Oh yeah,.

Stuart: It’s Not that I haven’t checked the inbox. It’s what could be waiting in the inbox. It is, you know, it could be my website’s down. But then my brain goes, “Yeah, but they would phone you.” They know to phone you. So what could it be?” Uh, you know, somebody angry at me for, you know, it’s almost like the rejection sensitivity is so high that if I think about it for too long or don’t look in there for too long, it’s like the inbox is laden with stuff that’s just going to trigger my RSD.

Hannah: Yeah,, I get that.

Stuart: But it’s not. It never is. You know, the worst is somebody like, “Oh, following up on the email that I sent last week.” Have you had a chance?” And you’re like, “Oh, shit.”

Hannah: I love those. Luckily, I don’t get too many of them anymore, but I love those kinds of passive aggressive I’m not sure if you saw my email. So, the next point really is something that you’ve touched on or we’ve touched on already, but the idea of having templates. I’ve done that for some clients, some kind of email template, you know, response templates because that removes any ambiguity about, oh, how am I going to reply to this? You know, if it’s an email that’s like, can you tell me more about X, Y, and Z? Oh, I’ve got a template for that. That just gives you a synopsis of what I do.

Stuart: Love a template.

Hannah: Love a template.

Stuart: Love a template. And I love a process.

Hannah: Oh, they’re beautiful.

Stuart: A process that has templates. It’s like explode brain at that point. As Harry Hill, the comedian says, you got to have a system.

Hannah: Got to have a system.

Stuart: Have a system. And you know when you’ve got that system in place, you’re kind of, it’s reducing that kind of decision friction because it’s making all the admin of emails and stuff manageable. I was going to say it completely manageable.

Hannah: Oh, decision fatigue is an actual and real measurable phenomena.

Stuart: Yeah. So when I was doing my training, I did at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, which was the UK’s, in fact, probably the world’s foremost aircraft research establishment, uh when it was in existence Concord gave us many innovations. The first man powered flight in the UK was from there.

Hannah: Nice.

Stuart: Um Colonel Cody, you know, Cody Wild West show. Uh he pitched up on Laughin’s plane as it was then and flew his kites with people strapped to them.

Hannah: I know. How did he talk them into that? Well, that’s a good salesman. Get on there and I’ll sellape your arms to it, just don’t stop squirming. You might die, but I’m hoping that you won’t.

Stuart: Well, these were circus folk, you know. Nothing to lose. A short drop wasn’t going to stop them.

Hannah: Oh my god.

Stuart: But yes, but that’s the point. You got to have a system.

Hannah: Yeah. And, you know, we’ve also touched on the idea of filtering messages. You said that you can kind of pause them or sort of what it was like put them on ice for a day or whatever. Snooze them. That’s the word I was looking for. Um, so you know, here’s some tips really. You’ve got to do pre-written replies, so templates for replies. You can filter your emails. That’s what I do. Like I said, every Saturday morning, which is kind of sad as I say it out loud. I filter them into who sent them and I can delete all the ones that I know will not be of any interest to me at all. Um, automation is also a good thing. Um, and you can mark them as super important if you want to kind of keep them at the front of your brainium. Um, and also same as templates really, but sort of default responses. You know, if you know that you get a certain kind of email, then just if you’ve planned in your brain or or better still, you have a template for those responses, then just cut and paste it. And don’t get me wrong, you don’t literally cut and paste send, you’re going to need to personalise it a bit. But if it’s the same question that you’re getting quite a lot, or even if it’s just a holding reply, you know, I can’t get back to you on that today. But I have read your email and  I’ll respond whenever.

Stuart: Oh, another top tip.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: So you know the out of office response.

Hannah: Oh yes.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. You can switch that on when you’re in office and put a message which says due to the pressure of work today my responses to emails will be triaged and I will only respond to urgent requests. Thank you for bearing with me at this time. And then at least the because it’s not usually It’s not how slow you respond. Usually, it’s not telling somebody how slow you rep respond. And that’s good communication saying to you, like if you messaged me and you didn’t hear back from me, like I’m talking a WhatsApp message, and you didn’t hear back from me for 24 hours, you would be sending me another message, hope everything’s all right.

But if I sent you a message, can’t chat, busy. You’d be like, oh, he’ll get back to me. He’s fine. You know, the stress kind of goes away coz you’re like, oh, I’m not being ignored. I’m just  in a queue and he’s busy.

 And a lot of my customers have had emails like that. I was trying to explain to somebody the other day that we’ve got a production process which I mentioned earlier. Um and that’s why they had to wait and they appreciated the explanation rather than just I can’t do it until next week. It was like I can’t do it till next week because we’ve got these things in place and I can’t quickly alter the workflow just to fit this substantialish piece of work. It was half a day. We just don’t have half a day until the middle of next week. And they were like, “Oh, okay.” Right. You’ve explained it.” Rather than just, “I can’t do that until next week.” Oh, well, when next week.

Hannah: Yeah. It just keeps them in the picture, doesn’t it? Which I think is respectful. One of the things you do sometimes when you’ll message me something, especially if it’s to do with the Oddcast, and you’ll say, “You don’t need to look at this now or this isn’t urgent.” And I love that because you know me well enough to know that my brain will be like “fire the engines up lads. I’ve got to reply to this one”. Whereas you always say you don’t need to reply now or you can look at this when you get some time or and I love it because most people are not that aware of the way that my brain works. Most people don’t get that it starts a little fire in my brain when I get a message sometimes.

Stuart: Well, this is back to the triage. And if I can pretriage it for someone by telling them by flagging it like labeling it, don’t need to worry about this, but you need to have a look at this when you got a moment. That for me, if somebody says that, that gives me so much more peace, less stress, gives me more context. It allows me to regulate myself.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And so I think that by demonstrating that to people, you’re more likely for them to do it back to you because that becomes the accepted communication methodology in your relationship. And even if they don’t and you consistently apply this, they will understand when you’re like, I can’t talk to you right now. I haven’t got the bandwidth to deal with this. This will be done at this point.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That is because using us as an example again, although I don’t necessarily have that same approach to you, I know My RSD never kicks in with you. You’re probably the only person that it doesn’t because I know if you don’t reply, I know that you’re busy. You’re immersed in something or you’ve gone out or whatever. None of my business. But if you don’t reply, I know that it isn’t coz you’re like, “fuck that bitch Just ignoring me. Delete. Delete.” Maybe you are. Oh my god, Stuart. I’m going to check now. Um, but you start scrolling back through your message going, “Oh, did they reread that? Oh, I didn’t put a comma there.” So, that runs on.

Stuart: I’ve done it. I’ve done it. I’ve gone into complete paralysis in my head and over analyzing how I last spoke to them.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And unfortunately, I think sometimes that happens with communication, especially written communication. People read their emotional state on the page and expect that that’s what’s happening at the other end. And I think that that is one of the bigger problems, especially for me.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: The assumption that for some you don’t reach 58 without spotting patterns and you know that there are times when I’ve done and said things people have had what I consider an odd reaction but it’s because I haven’t for some reason in my ND brain I’ve missed the social cues I haven’t done the a socially accepted thing I forgot to mention you know I had it once with a customer he had a new grandchild and I didn’t congratulate him on his new grandchild and he got really tipped up and it was like I I understand that, you know, coz he sent it in an email saying, “Oh, you know, wonderful thing.” And I just responded and I didn’t mention the baby coz I was just thinking to myself, “That’s really nice.” Fantastic.” But

Hannah: Well done. What? He didn’t push it out, did he? He doesn’t require congratulations.

Stuart: I didn’t know what to do with the information. It’s like, do I respond to this? Do you have a photo? That’s weird.

Yeah. And you could argue, well, sure, you just say, “Oh, congratulations.” Hope everyone’s happy.” I was in autist focus mode. You’re in work mode as well if he’s a client. Yeah, you probably is that I’ve done that and I am somebody that really overthinks like what’s the you know. My cat coughed up a hairball. I didn’t put it in the email.

Hannah: So that brings us rather nicely to the final point really and I think you are definitely the man to um no pressure to do this but how do we Stuart how do we redefine admin success?

Stuart: Well first of all you stop thinking about it as winning or losing. You’re not winning or losing. You’re on an escalator that’s going down and you’re trying to walk up it. It’s never going to end. In fact, this revelation will change your approach hopefully to your business. All you’re doing in your business is solving problems. That’s it. Doesn’t matter what your business is. It’s sole structure is to solve problems. What those problems look like will depend on your business, your skill set, your customers. Problems I solve are made in the digital realm. 

Sometimes they’re in the business structure, sometimes they’re in the person’s head, but the problem is a problem and I solve that problem. I’m the tool that solves that problem. And once you understand that and start thinking of yourselves in those terms, when somebody comes to you and asks for you to use your business, which is the tool that fixes their problem, then you stop feeling like it’s you, it’s your business, it’s a problem solving machine that somebody has come to to ask to solve a problem. You’re either going to solve it in a way they say yes to or they’re going to say no and go somewhere else. The point to it is don’t beat yourself up if you can’t solve their problem. Don’t try and be a Saville Taylor if you’re selling off the peg suits because you will go bust because you can’t be both of those things. 

So I think if you do have a highly customszed process for each and individual customer then you need to either charge a hell of a lot for that to reduce the amount of stress that you’ll get or focus on a very simple and straightforward process that you can offer lots of people that you can do click were what they call click were in other words it just happens automatically you’ve got a system you’ve got a process you’ve got templates etc etc and those I think for small businesses are the two templates highly customised for individualisation of specific problem solving, or you’re buying something pretty much click. Were I see people trying to do both of those things and not succeeding because a highly customised approach cannot be turned into a process. Want to know how I know all these things, Stu, because you tried them and they nearly broke you both financially and mentally. 

So now I’ve stripped our business back to basically hosting. Because I can onboard, host, and get a website up and running. We did it this week, moved it across, and that’s going to be, well, a lot of our hosting customers are five, eight years in. So I know that whatever that revenue is, I can predict it out for five or eight years and suddenly you go, why am I jumping through hoops to customise websites and do all of the other bits and pieces which are highly specific. Well, we do that as well, but we charge considerably more for our time to do that than we do for the hosting because the hosting is once you’re on it, I don’t have to think about you. A good hosting customer is one I never speak to. And the other way around, a good hosting company is one you never have to speak to. Your website is just there. It just works. It just does what it says. Nobody complains about it being slow. It’s a beautiful thing.

So, I think that there are things that you discover when you’ve been in business a long time. There are things that you are willing to do, things you aren’t willing to do. And it’s toilet paper and teabags and non-customisation. And by that I mean things that people will buy week in week out. They don’t think about it. You don’t have to sell it to them. They’re just going to buy it. Okay? Then you build a moat around that. So you find something that means that you’re not just a commodity because then you’re just at the will of the market and then you sell that thing to those specific customers that want it. Our specific thing at the moment is onshore UK web hosting powered by green renewable energy for small businesses in WordPress. I mean that’s quite a tight niche, but all I need is 500 customers and that business will take care of itself. I never have to get involved with it. I just put somebody on it and say, “Answer all the emails, deal with all the rest of it.” I’ve built them a job that I’ve monetised. And I think that if people thought more like that and that’s how I think because I don’t have the energy, the time, the bandwidth to deal with a job. I tried it. It broke me.

Stuart: Yeah. And so it’s not fun. Having the self-employment flexibility with my time, disconnecting time from money is my first task for any business. business owner because then you look at your business objectively rather than the subjective emotion but if I don’t do this I won’t earn any money. Everyone’s obsessed with money. I don’t know why, ladies and gentlemen, you can’t buy more time. Some business lessons have to be learned firsthand but others are blatant and obvious and are just there. You know all of the large companies that have major influence on the world have systems and processes. And if you went to Apple and said, “I would like an iPod, a bejeweled iPod and it’s got to do this and it’s got to have this other function and can we have a torch on it?” What are your chances of getting Apple to do that for you? Absolutely a big fat zero. Yeah. A big fat zero. Yeah. Yeah. There will be people out there who will customise it for you, but do not expect it to be an off-the-shelf cheap item.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: You know, And that’s the point to it that too many small business owners are teach are are trying to sell a high-end bespoke product that they have crafted for each individual customer at a knockdown cheap as chips compete with the marketplace price and you will well guess how I know burnouts two and three. Thank you ladies and gentlemen.

Hannah: So I’ve put in my notes here that inbox zero isn’t the goal. And as I’m reading that, it gives me the rage because it is my goal. But we’ll ignore that. Um because actually I guess what we’re saying and what we’ve been saying today is that we need to redefine the way we look at the success of our admin. So our inbox, because actually what we’re really going for and what we’ve talked about here today is that it’s about the regulation process, isn’t it? It isn’t about getting through all of them and never having any unread emails and all of that shit. It’s small wins. You know, progress counts, right? If we are not leaving everything unread, then that’s a tick in the win column. Um, and actually, we’ve both given you listening and watching out there. We’ve both given you permission that you are allowed to leave emails unread. You are allowed

Stuart: snooze them.

Hannah: You’re allowed to snooze them. You’re allowed to. And in fact, I’d highly recommend it. Although I don’t do it myself, so that makes me a hypocrite. But you’re, you know, I’d recommend that you don’t do what I do and keep looking at your phone, as it’s just exhausting. You know, set aside some times in the day where you know, and on the days where you are specifically waiting for an email, yeah, you might be on higher alert on that day. Um, but generally it’s just about trying to get a bit better at managing your inbox um so that it’s not so lava-like so you don’t get burnt toes every time you wander into it.

Have you got any tips or takeaways for us?

Stuart: I’ve got a few. You go first.

Hannah: So tips and takeaways. So remember that the admin dread the inbox fear is neurological. Okay. It is the way that we are made. And I appreciate we are not all identical. Even us spicy folk, not at all. But it is a neurological difference in our brains that means that you know we dread some of this stuff when somebody else may not. Um remember that it’s not a failing in you. It’s the way you’re built. And also remember that the sort of little tiny micro decisions exhaust your energy. They burn through your energy way more than you realize. So skipping from one email to the next and then back to a bit of work and then back to your inbox is just burning. It’s turned heat up to 10 and it’s just burning through your energy. Um, also containment, you know, like like you were saying, Stu, with the red rope around your time, but actually also boundarying the way that you deal with your inbox because actually containing that containing the um process of how you view your inbox, not being like me, staring at your blooming phone for notifications all day, that will massively reduce your anxiety around all of this stuff.

Yeah. Uh templates Sorry, I’m rattling through them, but templates, you know, pre-plan some generic responses that you know are going to work for this stuff.

And lastly, you need to set fire to perfectionism, even though even though she literally lives on my shoulder in her perfectly manicured, she’s a much more manicured version of myself. Um, perfectionism worsens that paralysis, you know, that fear, all of that inbox bollocks that we’re trying to avoid here. So, you need to lose perfectionism and that’s hard. I appreciate it’s not a case of just kicking it into the bin. It’s um it’s tricky, but you need to

Stuart: Yeah. My tips are clear communication is key. Um I’m the type of autist who will take everything you put into your email and try and deliver on it exactly as you have asked me. If there’s any wiggle room or any gray area, then I will default to either the very best um practice around this uh whatever you’re asking me to do or I will come back and ask so many clarifying questions that’s okay because it’s clear communication that’s key. The other one that I would suggest is checking your inbox at specific times of the day and don’t check it first thing because otherwise your day is being hijacked by everybody else’s decisions. Now, you can say, “But Stuart, they are your contract with your customer, deal with it”. Deal with it early. I tell my customers, the ones that I work with in consulting, you won’t get a reply first thing in the morning if you’ve emailed me late in the afternoon. Because my email answering times are 10, 2ish, 4ish. That’s it. I will dip in from time to time, especially if I’m waiting for something for a project or a clearance, but I won’t obsess about it. You know, I’ve sent off two proposals this week. Don’t care if I don’t hear from them ever again, I’m never chasing them. Oh, but Stuart, you should, you know. No, I’m not!

Hannah: Wow. How do you do that?

Stuart: I’m not till you buy or till you die, you get one shot. There you go. 30 days. If you don’t want it after 30 days, I’ll have to rethink. I’ve recently had somebody I know really well come back to me on a proposal I sent him on the 4th of February. Today’s date is uh much later. It’s about six weeks later and they’re starting to talk about it. It’s like, “Oh, no, no, you missed the boat.” I now need to reassess this proposal.” And actually, rereading it, I don’t want to do this job. I’m now going to have to say to you, I’m really busy for the next 3 months just to put you off.

Hannah: Busy for the rest of my life because you delayed your response.

Stuart: You had my attention at the beginning of February and I had the bandwidth and space to do the project. Now, I seriously would struggle to fit it in because I’ve got so many other things that I need to be doing. 

But anyway, another top tip, templates. Templates, processes, and systems. They are your friends. I know that when I walk away from editing an Oddcast or doing anything with the podcast, I know how to pick up very quickly because I’ll know where the process stopped. So, like editing one of the episodes this week, I opened it with everything ready to go. I’d set it up so that when I opened it, I didn’t have to do all those micro decisions like I’ve got to import it, I’ve got to normalise it, I’ve got to do this, I’ve got to do that. And that’s just like wading through mud to get to the good bit, you know, wading through mud to get to the lovely sunny beach of the creativity of editing, and so I do all that beforehand so that I know that when I sit down to edit. 

So, it’s the same with your inbox and your admin. If you set up some templates and some routines, it flies so much quicker when you know “I click here I go there I do this thing”. You know I definitely cannot extol the virtue of systems processes and templates enough. Ensure that your inbox is organised in a way that you can quickly find things. Yes you can search and we’ve got all of that sort of facility with AI these days. I’m sure it’s only going to get better but the ability to find an email quickly when a customer goes, “you know that thing we were talking about six months ago”. Oh, Christ, where is it? You know, oh, you can search by their email address, but if they’re a good customer, that’s probably somewhere close to two or 30 hundred emails over six months. Um, so allowing yourself to be able to quickly label and filter and file things is key to this. You know, finding data that you need months later. I was able to locate something for a customer that we did for them four years ago. Um, because our filing system works well it works it may not work for everybody but it works for me and my brain and I can quickly dive into our system and find stuff and put myself back into the brain space of like “oh what were we doing then? Oh yeah we did that because our systems are consistent”. If you constantly evolve your systems you should improve them and change them over time but in a measured way that makes sense and is logical. For me that’s how I am able to stay across terabytes of information every year. Otherwise I would just be I don’t know where I would start. I would just lose it even worse than I have. Uh and stop at “good enough”. All right. So perfectionism will ruin your life. I know because it nearly ruined mine. Um there is no such thing as perfect. Even when you think you have, I’ve proof read things and proof read them and proof read them and proof read them and checked them and used spell checkers and sent it off and then spotted a typo.

No amount of times. And you know what? I used to worry about it and think, “Oh, they’re going to think I’m an uneducated idiot.” I’m going to burn in hell. Um, they’re going to come back and go, you spelled it this way. That’s the American way.” You know, nobody will be as detail oriented as me. It’s just the way it is. And nobody will spot it. Nobody will pull you up on it. It doesn’t matter. The world will continue to turn. The heat death of the universe is inevitable. Stop stressing about it, man. 

Hannah: The other day, very quick tangent, I built a website for somebody and I checked, you know what I’m like obsessively checking it anyway. Sent it over like “cast your eyes over it, please”. And they said, “Oh, did you realise that the hero image on whatever page is the same image on the other?” Oh my god, it’s so obvious. But I hadn’t seen it at all. In the past I would have just gone and just you know set fire to myself in the garden.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: I just said “ah schoolgirl error.  I’ve been looking at it so much this week that my brain did not register that this is the completely wrong image”. And this woman, she’s brilliant, was like “yeah whatever just change it you know or I’ll change it whatever”. She’s got access. So that’s why we have a snagging process is the answer isn’t it?

Stuart: And that’s why we have a snag list and it’s we get fresh eyes on it and it’s great to get your input. So, I’m glad you’re a part. That’s the thing is you lean into it and you say, you know, you reveal your humanity. You don’t try to be a machine and you say, “This is why it’s a collaborative process.” I’m so glad I’m doing it with you. You seem to have your eye on the detail.” Everyone loves a bit of praise. Oh, come on.

Quick stroke. Everyone gets a pat on the back. Medals for everyone.

Stuart: And that’s it really. I would suggest that you start somewhere. Start slowly. try one adjustment, try one thing. And I know for us neurotypes, um, it can be difficult to instill a new habit, especially one that feels like it’s outside your comfort zone or alien to you. And if you need help with any of this, Hannah and I are more than happy to jump on a quick Zoom call and deal with whatever major malfunction you’re dealing with and try and get you past it. No cost, no upfront sign up, nothing. Just literally from the details that we have on our website, get in touch, let us know what the sticking point is. And who knows, we might even have you on as a guest to talk about it if you feel like it and we’ll big up your business. How about that?

Hannah: Oh, that would be good.

Stuart: So, that’s it. That’s another Oddcast. How was it for you?

Hannah: Magnificent.

Stuart: Yeah, it’s always good. I always feel like I’ve been in therapy. I feel like I’m purged. So that’s it. Please like, share, and subscribe with whoever you have in your sphere that you think might be um, vaguely interested in this sort of thing. Uh, you don’t have to have a diagnosis to listen, but it helps. And, uh, we’ll see you next time. What’s the topic for the next one, Hannah?

Hannah: So, the next um, Oddcast coming up is a guest. And I’m not going to spoil anything. No spoilers. I’m not going to spoil anything, but as you know yourself, we are beginning to get guests onto our podcast, which um is really exciting. Really exciting. And like Stuart said, if anybody listening feels that they’d like to put themselves forward as a guest, we do have a form on the site, don’t we?

Stuart: We do. Yeah.

Hannah: Or just email us as well, hosts.

Stuart: Yeah. All the details are under the episode, on the page, on the website or on the YouTube channel. So if you can’t get hold of us, it’s because you’re not trying.

Hannah: Try harder.

Stuart: Try harder.

Hannah: Oh, no. We just shamed the very thing that you’re good enough just as you are.

Stuart: Yes. But if you’ve got a problem, you’ve got to try harder because you’ve got to get in touch with us. I’m sorry. 

Hannah: So, there you go. Yeah.

Stuart: Yep.

Hannah: The next time you will hear us, our dulcit tones in your ear holes, it’ll be with a guest.

Stuart: With a guest. Fantastic. Wonderful to chat today and I look forward to the next one. So keep your eyes on the blogs. Those are going to be coming out every other week topped and tailed by our podcast twice a month. And if you’ve got any ideas or thoughts or topics you want us to cover or you’re not hearing about or you’re violently opposed to everything we’ve said, just get in touch. Let us know. Tell us what idiots we are. We already know.

Hannah: Or if you hate us, just sod off. Go and listen to somebody else’s podcast. Other podcasts are available. We don’t need your negative vibes.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah, man.

Hannah: Spot the one with RSD the worst.

Stuart: So, thank you very much and we’ll see you next time. Bye. 

Hannah: Goodbye.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

————————————-
TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:01:17 – Topic of the Week – Protecting Your Energy When The World Wont Slow Down
00:02:20 – Topic introduction and opening remarks
00:03:32 – The maintenance phase – ensuring your spoons are protected
00:04:13 – Stu’s Running Analogy – Eliud Kipchoge vs Usain Bolt
00:05:50 – The world demands consistent output, it doesn’t accomodate varying energy
00:07:00 – Brownouts – not quiet black out, the “just-about-functional” twighlight
00:08:20 – 24/7 always available and “chewing the cud” rumination, weight of masking
00:09:47 – Stu’s Superman analogy – the ultimate in masked superheros
00:10:53 – The mismatch between fluctuating capacity and cnstant demands.
00:12:24 – The “one-size fits-all” model for small business output & drama magnets
00:14:14 – Being a people pleaser and “throwing yourself on the grenade”
00:17:46 – The guilty pleasure of people pleasing; Adrenaline & Dopamine double-tap
00:18:19 – Energy boundaries vs emotional boundaries – valuing your own boundaries
00:19:00 – Alexithymia and interoception enter the chat…
00:19:50 – No. End of sentence… and all of the feels.
00:21:04 – The consequences of not protecting boundaries and regulating your energy
00:23:28 – “I don’t have capacity” is a comple te sentence, protect your energy
00:25:39 – The enthisastic wonder of the world can be draining
00:26:59 – Life is like cricket…
00:29:00 – Some people accept “no”, some push back and that’s a red flag
00:29:55 – Deciding what isn’t worth the cost anymore, letting go of the “shoulds”
00:31:57 – I would help you, but I don’t want to. Seeking immediate approval
00:33:24 – The poor returns on people pleasing – defining the rules of a relationship
00:35:09 – How do we protect our energy? Avoiding life in perpetual brownout
00:37:56 – Planning “firebreaks” in your schedule
00:39:21 – How energy shows up for the neurodivergent and benefits of self employment
00:42:23 – Health can impact energy and enforcing boundaries
00:43:16 – Stu’s “Fuck it” formula – Living life without apologising for your boundaries & energy
00:49:50 – This episode’s take aways
00:52:08 – Stu’s controversial opinion about Linked In
00:52:37 – Top tips – apply at your own risk
00:52:25 – Like, share and subscribe
00:58:00 – Next Weeks Topic: In Charge But Can’t Start – Executive Dysfunction as a Leader
00:59:04 – LENGTH

————————————-

RESOURCES

THE ODDCAST MANIFESTO

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

————————————-

OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

Ep28 of the Business Oddcast and we look at the toxic nature of “Hustle Culture”

Ever feel like you’re training with Usain Bolt but somehow running in slow motion? In this episode, we declare ourselves refugees from the Gary Vee School of Business to dismantle the toxic “hustle culture” that lives deep inside our nervous systems. 

We explore why the planet is convinced rest must be earned like some kind of cosmic achievement. We share our anti-hustle toolkit for “slow business,” inspired by the Italian slow food movement, because life should be a feast, not a protein bar shoved in your face while answering emails!

The antidote to everything hustle related, listen and laugh along to our lived experiences and top tips coping in business with a brain spicier than Taco Tuesday.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

————————————-
TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction.
00:00:16 – Topic of the Week – The Anti-Hustle Tool Kit: Doing Less Without Falling Apart.
00:00:55 – Outline of the topic and themes of this week’s show.
00:01:55 – Welcoming the refugees from the Gary V school of hustling.
00:02:30 – Hustle culture is not just external, adrenaline should not be a coping strategy.
00:03:55 – Being busy as a way to cope, work harder, block out the pain.
00:05:50 – The internal pressure of “keeping up”, and always falling behind.
00:08:22 – The antidote to fast-food… is slow-food the model for a slow-business?
00:11:25 – The Harrison Ford deadline drug and PDA.
00:12:40 – Hannah’s website part nine-hundred and thirty one. The procrastination diary.
00:14:30 – The fear of falling behind if you slow down.
00:16:42 – Avoiding the “must do it all” and FOMO as a small business owner.
00:17:45 – Small business succcess is being consistent, but on your terms.
00:19:36 – The trap of unrealitic earnings expectations/
00:21:28 – If what you’re doing is NOT working. PIVOT!
00:23:05 – What do you really enjoy doing? Do that…
00:26:53 – Variety is really the neurospice of life.
00:28:41 – Hustle equates safety (sound familar?), and adrenaline, we discuss.
00:32:04 – Being enrgaed at unsolicited advice requiring a time machine to execute.
00:34:20 – Just “pushing through” is just self-harm.
00:35:42 – Time-shifting work to meet your energy, one of the benefits of being self-employed.
00:38:55 – Hannah’s switched on “Granny mode”.
00:40:16 – When the anti-hustle meets real world conditions, financial pressure vs time .
00:43:21 – Don’t fall into the trap of failing to charge enough for your time.
00:45:50 – Self-employed minimum wage, underestimating earning potential, energy overdrafts.
00:48:57 – SiGNAL BiZHUB networking community and the dangers of undercharging.
00:50:50 – Value vs cost in retail – charging enough to make a margin despite inflation.
00:54:24 – Instead of increasing your income, reduce hours and keep the same income.
00:55:00 – How to prevent the insidious nature of hustle. Redefine your work paradigm.
00:57:55 – Celebrate the everyday, keeping plates spinning is a job well done!
00:59:30 – Challenging your unreasonable expectations, perfectionism
01:00:57 – Ignoring the shiny & new and respecting your own red rope around your time
01:01:50 – Stu’s gigging story – an insight into the performers day
01:03:37 – Being realistic about the impact and toll of different projects
01:05:08 – Be clear about your own human requirements, and respect them
01:09:25 – Hannah’s takeaways – build a sustainable structure and set your own goals
01:12:54 – Stu’s top tips – defeat conditioning, resist hustle, respect rhythms
01:16:48 – Round up and parish notices – like, share subscribe
01:18:13 – LENGTH

————————————-

RESOURCES

ODDCAST MANIFESTO – Our visison for a fairer world for NDs

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

————————————-

OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

Stuart: The Business podcast. Hello and welcome to another business podcast. I am Stuart Morrison and this is 

Hannah: Hannah Logan.

Stuart: Fantastic. And we’re your hosts today on the business podcast. How are you doing Hannah?

Hannah: Yeah, pretty good. Thank you. 

What is the topic of the week?

Hannah: Oh, the topic of the week is the anti-hustle toolkit. I’m all about the anti-hustle. Doing less without falling apart.

Stuart: Uh tell me about it. I have hustled with the best of them and broke myself on several occasions. I keep going back for more. It’s terrible. But it’s like going training with Usain Bolt, constantly being disappointed at your own performance. Why am I so slow? Why do I keep putting myself through this? So, the anti-hustle toolkit, uh, what are we looking at today? Tell us about the anti-hustle toolkit.

Hannah: So, what we’re looking at really is people like us, the neurodivergent world, or probably a lot of other people too, know that we can’t keep going back to hustling, but we don’t really know what replaces that. 

So, but the problem with hustling or hustle culture is it doesn’t just live at work. It actually lives inside our nervous systems. So, it’s caught up in our self-worth, our fear of being left behind, our belief that rest has to be earned. You know, you got to keep hustling, consistency, all of that bull shit that I hate. Um, so this episode is basically about dismantling hustle without collapsing. So understanding more about it and knowing that the option isn’t necessarily opt out, but it’s about choosing sustainability over self-sacrifice so we can get the work done without kind of burning ourselves into a little crispy version of ourselves and crying a lot.

Stuart: Yeah. If you’re a refugee from the Gary Vee School of Business, then you’re at home here. We are not going to be hustling very frequently.

Hannah: Probably get sued now for all the anti-hustle I’m about to rant about. But it please don’t coz I don’t want to have to sell my children. Oh my god.

Stuart: Oh yeah. The irony of that.

Hannah: Oh no. So that takes us nicely to our first point really. that like I’ve already touched on it but hustle culture isn’t just external you know it’s not just sales people shouting at us. It actually lives inside us. And then that is one of the biggest problems because even when we reject it as an idea or we reject hustle intellectually our nervous systems still rely on it. So I don’t know about you but for me adrenaline is a really valid coping strategy. Um, it lives alive and well in my body and my brain. And I’ve always, I’d imagine this kind of taps into the ADHD part of me,um, part of my brain. But actually, I’ve always relied on urgency and pressure to actually get stuff done because it gives me that kind of focus and clarity, that temporary surge of focus and clarity. Um, but actually, if we rely on that, that buzz of adrenaline to keep us plowing through and hustling like the be like the best of them like the rest of them that actually we’re just masking underlying stress um and that can all fall apart oh really quickly.

Stuart: Yeah. It’s just like the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Somebody will ask you something fairly benign and you’ll be like ” why do you want me to talk to you?”

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s brutal. Also, and this, as you know, as I’m thinking about this I’m like “oh yeah this feels very relatable”. In the last 51 years, I’ve always relied on being busy as a way to actually cope and regulate my emotions, or or certainly manage difficult things in my life. I would say as an avoidance technique really work harder, block out the pain, just keep pushing on through.

Stuart: Well, that’s quite interesting actually. Let me just pick up on that because when I go somewhere, if it’s an unfamiliar place, one of my coping strategies is to appoint myself a job.

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: Like at a party, I’ll quite happily do the washing up. And people are like, “You’re a legend.” I’m like, “No, I’m just avoiding small talk. I haven’t got the spoons.” It’s all part of my rehab. My self-imposed rehab. Actually, doing washing up. I’ve got all the spoons.

Hannah: Yeah. But are they the right ones, too?

Stuart: They’re just the wrong spoons. You’re literally just angrily looking at all of their spoons. Why are they all different sizes?

Hannah: Yeah. But yes. Yes, it can be. It can be used as a mask to overwhelm and the stress that’s going on underneath.

Stuart: Yeah, absolutely.

Hannah: And I think there’s, you know, the thing that sometimes stops us, or makes us put our foot on the brakes, is that actually slowing down can often bring quite a lot of discomfort, you know, because then we are having to face what we’re trying to avoid. Um, I’m not suggesting that everybody that hustles is trying to avoid something, but I know for me that’s certainly a thing. Um, and actually sometimes my strategy does feel and I’m getting so much better on this, but sometimes if it’s not working, I’m just like, you just need to work through the night. I mean, that’s not a strategy, is it? Just try harder. You know, it’s like we’ve had a lifetime of kind of you’re just not trying hard enough.

Stuart: I tell you what, the biggest pressure I did to myself was working out how much I spend a day versus how much I earn a day and constantly seeing myself behind. It’s not helpful at all.

Hannah Logan: No, because especially when both the energy and the money turns up in lumps.

Stuart: Especially when you’ve got the impetus to catastrophize. It’s not just bad. It’s the worst it’s ever been. You’re about to die.

Hannah: We’re all going to die. Everybody in the world is just going to explode.

Stuart: So it can be really bad to coz this is my problem with the hustle culture, and I’m sure we’ll get into this, but it seems to be that your success is measured in terms of the amount of hours you put into the week and I don’t think that’s a very useful metric at all. I don’t think you should be working harder and harder and harder to prove yourself. It’s a little bit like we got a really nice car on the drive because it tells the neighborhood that we’re really successful.

Hannah: #winning, but nobody cares. Literally, they won it. Maybe they literally put no effort into getting it. They just got given it.

Stuart: That’s it. Oh, yeah. That’s it. They won it.

Hannah: So annoying. But that’s the point, isn’t it? Or that’s one of the many points of hustle culture. I won’t go on a massive tangent about this, but we are led to believe that actually you are only winning if you’re earning tons of money and you’re, you know, you got the best car and the best house and the best holidays and you’re documenting that on Instagram so everybody else hates their lives a little bit more. 

But it becomes part of our achievement, or that perceived achievement, can become part of our identity if we’re not careful. And then that keeps feeding that need to do a bit harder. And you know, I go to a lot of networking things where some of them are just people going “I’ve written a 15th book”. Just this kind of Pinterest board of how much they’re doing. People always say to me “so, how busy are you at the moment?”. I want to say “actually not that busy and my life’s so much nicer for it”.

Stuart: Well you see, and we’ll talk about this at length, so the Italian “slow food” movement is one that I looked at with interest. Because it’s like the antidote to fast food where you just grab something, stuff it in you. That is part of the hustle culture. That right there is “don’t take time over your food. You haven’t got time to eat. You haven’t got time to cook and prepare good nutritious food. You have to eat on the go. Eat at your desk. Eat on the run”. And I’ve done all this. I, you know, I’m more efficient. I am more effective. I am multitasking. I am eating and answering emails.

I do have indigestion, yes I do, and my stomach is a knot. But it doesn’t matter. I am productive. And then I saw the slow food movement and this one guy said life is about enjoyment and there should be nothing more enjoyable than good food prepared slowly eaten slowly and taking time to eat with your friends and the people you love. And I thought to myself “do you know what, they’ve really got a point”. Why are we shoehorning life into these tiny little bite-sized pieces, pardon the pun, and going “that’s enough” when what we should be doing is feasting. And so my attitude now with my businesses is slow business. It it killed me almost literally trying to, you know, accelerate and create this massive great big business with tons of people. I got to six employees and imploded. Uh the pressure on me. And you could say, well, that’s because you didn’t set it up right. But there comes a necessary amount of thrashing the water to a foam to get yourself moving before you can start to afford to employ people to do stuff. So, a lot of the times the early employees are billable hour employees that you can earn off because anybody who goes on the books who’s not a billable hour Oh my word, that is an instant bottom line cost. So I now take the attitude of “if this work is going to satisfy me at a nurturing level”. And this sounds really weird when you say say this, but it’s the difference between stuffing a fast food meal in your face and enjoying a three course lovely home-cooked meal or with a one course home-cooked meal with friends that make you laugh and relax you trying to put your foot on the accelerator and just keep going all the time. I’m afraid especially for the neurodivergent, I think, is sustainable for short bursts of time but should only be done when absolutely necessary.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely that because sometimes we do need that hit of just thrashing through something at the last minute and skidding under the door like Harrison Ford just as the giant boulders coming. Because it’s like a drug to us right there. There is that kind of like ‘woo I’m good, look at me’. But actually if your whole life is that then you are just constantly feeling like you only just made it, you know. I just hit the deadline. It’s super freaking stressful, isn’t it, to be on the edge of “almost missed it” all the time.

Stuart: Oh, it’s toxic. It really is toxic. And especially because you’re living your life with heightened adrenaline levels all the time. And that’s not good for you. You know, constantly like, “Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.” And I get it. Sometimes the PDA, internal PDA, is like, “Oh, you need to do that. I’ll decide when I do that. You don’t determine when I do that.” You know, no, don’t Stu, your own internal voice is saying to you, screaming at you, you need to do such and such. And you’re like, yeah, I’ve still got three days. I do it in two hours. I’ll do it on the last day.

Hannah: So relatable. So relatable. It’s funny because, well, this isn’t very funny really, but it’s interesting to me. So my website’s still not live and I’d imagine there’ll be people that have followed the story of my website going “what?”, but my point is I had a conversation with somebody yesterday and said “ I’m okay with that. Because it’s not ready, and I’ll know when it’s ready”.  It’s a bit like giving birth. I know when it’s ready and I’ll push it out. That’s a horrible thought. Sorry everybody listening. I will um you know send this beautiful thing out into the world when I feel like it’s ready. It’s like a ship that I’m going to, you know set sail. 

That sounds a lot more impressive than it really is. But my reality is I feel an external pressure from people that don’t know me very well just saying, “Oh, Hannah, just do it.” Like I’m an idiot that it’s not been done. But actually, it’s not been done for PDA. Okay. It’s not been done because I’m not ready yet. It’s not been done because I’m a perfectionist. There’s lots of reasons, but actually I’ve got more work recently without an actual  live website. So, it’s not actually impacting me as a business. It’s that external pressure of everybody deciding for me that it needs to do. You know what I mean? And don’t get me wrong, I want to get it out there and I’m  finishing it as we speak. But not literally right now. But it’s that pressure again. Random people that don’t really know me very well just going, “Oh, Hannah, like you know, they want to say, “You’re so shit. Why have you not done it yet?” And  I don’t need that.

Stuart: Keep your opinion unless I ask for it. I’m not

Hannah: Exactly.

Stuart: I’m not interested. Would you like a refund on that opinion?

Hannah: There it is. Right there. There’s your refund.

Stuart:  If you’re listening along,  I’m giving the imaginary person a finger. Yes, that finger.

Hannah: Um

Stuart: So I think that there’s a particular fear and we sort of touched on this. This fear of falling behind. This fear of “ if I stop or I slow down at some point, you know, I’m missing out or I’m not putting my shoulder to the wheel enough or or contributing enough. And that’s a really toxic mindset. And I’ve been there, all the things we’re going to talk about today. 

I’ve been there. I’ve got the t-shirt. I’ve got a display cabinet actually with all the trophies. Um, but there is this fear that you’re falling behind, especially if you come back after burnout and, like we’ve discussed, your capacities may be different. I’ve certainly realized that my ability to do a 12 to 18 hour day has long passed and the more that I try and push at that the worse it becomes. Just this kind of, it’s almost like, you know when you’re pushing two magnets together the same pole it’s a bit like that. The more I try the more my brain goes no. It’s like it’s trying to protect itself and I do think that there’s this kind of “I’m falling behind. I’m falling out of relevance” 

But here’s an interesting statistic and I cling to this because it doesn’t matter how long I’ve been doing this. This is pretty much the statistic that works. 80% of my business comes from word of mouth. People who haven’t even looked at my website. We picked up a hosting customer this week. All he wanted to know was, “Was I local?” He wants to be able to come around and knock on my door. He said, “If anything goes wrong, can I come around knock on your door?” 

Hannah: Stuart, it’s very worrying!. 

Stuart: I said, “Well, not at midnight.” No. And he said, “No, no, but the point to it is that I trust you because you’re local, whereas you know He’s got my mobile number. He knows where I live. He feels comfortable that I’m not going to somehow end up doing something horrible or or irreversible for his hosting his website. You know, it’s quite straightforward from our perspective. So, there’s a lot of the times you think, you know, if I don’t have the latest stuff, if I don’t have the greatest stuff, if I don’t have the most up-to-date website, the most up-to-date social media, I haven’t done a post for this, I haven’t done that. Don’t worry about it. Go to the networking. Get your work out there. share it. It builds over time. 

I think a small local business should be looking at a time horizon and they’re going to throw their hands in the air of 12 to 18 months before your finances are stable to the point where you can start to think about right, you know, and if you do it before that, absolutely fantastic. This isn’t like it’s going to definitely take you that, but I think once you’ve made the move to self-employment, it takes three to six months for you to get all your shit together. Are you compliant? Have you registered with the HMRC? Have I got a website? Have I got business cards? You know, all of that kind of stuff. It takes a while. And all the time you go around to all the networking meetings, you’ll meet people who will make you think, I need to have that in place. I need to have that in place. Actually, you just need to keep turning up and be consistent. The unwritten truth of the matter is if you turn up to the same networking event that’s well attended, you know, in your area and there’s between 20 and 50 regular attendees, you’ll pick up business. You just will. Especially if you’re interested in what other people do. I always lead with “how can I help?” You know, because it ‘s all about the other person then, isn’t it? You know, what are you up to at the moment? What’s your biggest problem? How can I help? Now, I’m in a privileged position with Signal. You know, I’m the ambassador co-host. I get to talk about other people more than I get to talk about myself, which I find awkward. I know I’ve got an entire podcast here where we’re talking about ourselves, but in a networking meeting, I always want to lean in and get the person talking to me. 

So, the point to it is there’s a lot of people out there with longstanding businesses that don’t have websites, that don’t have all of the fancy AI tools and all of the processes in place, and they earn a decent enough living that keeps their head above water. And I decided to swap the stress and regular burnout from trying to accelerate to a thousand miles an hour, from standstill to actually being quite content with my lot and living a relatively frugal lifestyle. We refuse to eat poor. That’s my luxury. I will eat well. Um but that’s the point is you have to decide where you cut your cloth. And I found that trying to duplicate a larger business myself didn’t work.

Hannah: No, I  completely hear you. I was on a call yesterday  with a fabulous person that sort of teaches  mainly sales and they were saying, you know, “how much do you want to earn every month?” And I kind of said, “ I’m not going to get into this conversation because I know that I’ll say X and you’ll say “No, you can earn 10 times that”. And then I’ll say “that feels like a lot of pressure and I won’t sleep very well”. And then you’ll say, “Oh, you’re not ambitious.” And it will just get really brutal. And I I don’t want to get involved in any of that bullshit. 

So, one thing I did want to come back to when you were saying like, you know, 12 to 18 months or so. I totally agree with that. But if you’re me and you keep pivoting, then just remember that you go back to day one again. So, I’m like 13 years in and I’ve pivoted so many times. Every time I pivot,  I appear to have ramped my earnings right back down again. So, um but yeah, needing to build that momentum, and like you said, Stu, as well, we all have different goals and different needs and different sort of priorities. And success doesn’t mean. I know we’ve touched on this in other podcasts, but success is not one thing. The goal is not painted in gold and we all have a Mercedes or whatever, you know, other cars are available. Sorry. Um, that’s not it. Success for me actually looks like work, health, life balance because quite frankly, I burnt myself out quite substantially about 18 months ago and I’m paying the price ever since with physical health problems. So, I am literally the poster girl for this episode of “do not do this”. Or I’ve learned

Stuart: I  want to sort of pick up on the pivot thing. Um, pivots are great. If what you’re doing is not working, pivot. The marketplace is saying to you, we don’t want to buy what you’re selling if it’s not working. So, doing something different, pivoting and taking a different route. I often talk to a business owner and in a candid moment, they’ll say to me something like, “Yeah, it’s not going that great.” And I’m like, “So, why don’t you change your ideal customer or why don’t you change your offer or why don’t you offer a side thing or an introductory thing And it takes time to try these things out and go out there and I think what people are afraid of is that internal consistency. We all like to be internally consistent. So you say something and then you live that thing. So when you go out into the marketplace and go we offer product A or service A and nobody you know deafening silence tumble weeds. People think that “oh well if I go out there and now say we offer service B product B people are going to go oh you’re not very good”. Because you are offering to people who don’t care. People aren’t paying attention. They really aren’t. If I go out into the marketplace and say I’ve done this, I’ve gone to full networking events with t-shirts on saying what we did to try it out to see if that made people come over and talk to me and go, “Oh, that’s interesting. Tell me more about it.” And when you get zero, literally zero response, even when you point at your t-shirt and they go, “What do you do?” And you point to the t-shirt. Uh-uh. You know, time for a pre- pivot pivot.

Hannah: I love that. I was talking to a client the other day and I said to her, “What do you really enjoy doing?” She offers coaching and well-being stuff. She’s brilliant. Um and she started to say, “Well, this particular course is the most profitable because,” and I said, “No, no, no. Come back to what I said. What do you really enjoy doing? And she was like, “Well, I really enjoy doing these little mini sessions.” And I said, “So then that’s what we need to push more of. If you’re just driven by money, then you would just keep pushing the ones that give you the most profit. But actually, there’s a balance to be had where the enjoyment and the things that you find easy to do because you enjoy them. There’s that balance. Otherwise, you’re just doing something you hate just coz it’s a bit more money. You know, what’s the point in that?

Stuart: No. I’ve often said, you cannot sustain a business that you hate. If you get out of bed and your feet hit the carpet too many mornings in a row and your shoulders sag and you go, “I’ve got to do this again today.” Do something. You’re the master of your own fate. You can do whatever you like. You’re an entrepreneur. If you decide that baking isn’t the thing that you want to do anymore, and you’d rather be doing, I don’t know, cutting paper doilies,  I don’t know where it came from!

Hannah: That’s a bit random.

Stuart: It is. It is. Uh but the point to it is you are your own master. As long as you communicate this and if you’ve got any customers or any contracts or any legal obligations, you deal with those. I’m not saying just drop everything. But you are the master of your own fate. You get to choose what you do with your time when you’re self-employed. So figure something else out. I was watching a video of a guy who basically quit his full-time job without really much of a plan. And he’s replaced his income with what he calls a basket of incomes. And there was nothing he said that I could disagree with. It was like he got a baseline cheap simple job which required no brain power. Like it might have been a small retail job, you know, and he goes in and he does that a few hours a week. That gives him a few hundred pounds. He pays for some of the essentials and some of the overheads, but he’s then built up streams of income. And this is great. You know, he’s got a little bit of income from YouTube, some from Facebook, a little bit on Etsy, he does a little bit of uh other side hustles. And he said, I feel more relaxed and more comfortable now because although I don’t have the big career and the big money, he said, I don’t feel like I’m constantly waiting for somebody to say, “well, we no longer need your services”, and I’ll lose all of my income overnight. He said,  “I jumped before I was pushed,” sort of thing. But the point to it is if your business brings you joy, but it doesn’t bring you money, that’s great. I realise you’ve got to have money to survive. That’s the way we do things on this planet, apparently. Odd to me, but there you go. Don’t let me get into it. Um, but the point is that you can adjust accordingly. You know, sometimes we have to do the necessary pain work to do the enjoyable work. You know, nobody likes well, unless you’re an accountant, nobody likes being an accountant. Um yeah, the point is I think that if what you’re doing feels like a job, change it. You are the master of your own fate. Don’t build a perfect prison. I know I did.

Hannah: I think we’ve both been there, Stuart. We’ve definitely both been there. So, one thing I was going to say is a lot of the spicier brained amongst us really love that variety like you were explaining about the guy with the basket of different things. And I personally want to build up more subtle income streams doing the things I love. Like my daughter and I do a load of craft stuff on the side, bit of a side hustle. Um it’s not a huge earner, but actually it brings us joy because we’re making things and selling.

Stuart: See, the point to this is let’s say you’ve got an Etsy, you’ve got an eBay, you’ve got something and it makes you 50 quid a month. If you were walking down the street and you found 50 quid, you’d be made up. You would be telling everyone about it, wouldn’t you? You won 50 quid on the premium bonds. I know I have. You tell everyone I won 50 quid in the premium bonds this month. Everyone’s like, “That’s fantastic.” But it’s a little bit like that. You know, you get a few 50 quid wins a month and that can lift the pressure.

Hannah: Definitely. And like you said with that guy, it’s not all of your eggs in one basket. I mean, I remember when Covid came about I worked for an exhibition company, printing company, and that was my main client. That was 90% of my income. And sadly for them, although they have since resuscitated themselves, thank goodness. But sadly for them, they just kind of died overnight as did 90% of my income. And don’t get me wrong, that wasn’t you know, obviously a lot more awful, horrific stuff happened due to Covid. It wasn’t just about me. “It’s not all about you, Hannah!”. But my point being, you know, that was pretty much all my eggs in one basket.

Stuart: Yeah. Surfing on that complacency and then Oh, oops. Yeah. I was in a weird place during COVID. Let’s not go there. So, do you think there’s a myth that hustle equates to safety?

Hannah: Yeah, I think so. I think so. But I think it’s a bit Stockholm syndrome, isn’t it? It’s kind of we’ve convinced ourselves that if we just keep hustle,  hustle, hustle, work the hardest you can, and then you know, it will kind of create us this little safety zone or it feels somehow protective. But at the end of the day, it ends up most of the time, sadly, and certainly has in my life, it ends up creating the collapse that we’re actually trying to avoid.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: We’re ‘rush rush rush’  trying to keep ahead of the chaos, but actually we’re by doing that, we’re creating more and we’re using this kind of overfunctioning “must do better” thing as a form of control. But actually what it does in my experience is it prolongs the pain. You know, it masks the anxiety, but it doesn’t remove it. It creates a lot more and it just masks it for ages. Um, so yeah, it’s fairly hideous really. And as I’m saying this, I’m literally living what we are telling you not to do. I’m going to go home and rethink my life choices.

Stuart: Going to have to have a word. Um,

Hannah: Because the reality is it’s that kind of short-term gain. You know, you’ll whiz through, you’ll burn yourself out. You know, I will write a blog till 1 in the morning and I’m like, yes, hashtag winning. But actually, long term, it’s causing damage. I’m beginning to see that now. There was a time where I couldn’t see that at all. But now, very rarely do I write a blog at 1 in the morning. And I’m not doing that. I should just be clear on this. I’m not doing that because I’ve run out of time. Sometimes I’m just doing that because that’s what my brain’s like, “Hello, at midnight with a brilliant idea and if I don’t voice note that bad boy immediately, then it’s never coming back into my brain. So, this is not all about, I hope I’m not painting a picture that it’s like, “oh, we’re all useless and we don’t manage our time”. That’s not a lot of the time, it’s not that at all. Sometimes I find I get some weird trip off this stuff. I wait till the final moment and then start the project, you know? I love that kind of thing. I don’t know what it is really, dopamine, that adrenaline rush from it all. Also i think that burnout cycles can be disguised as ambition you know because we’re again buying into that hustle culture. Kiind of that intense productivity is the goal. Um it’s framed as dedication and drive like “oh he’s constantly working. He’s such a winner”.

Stuart: Oh that’s the “letting the side down” thing again.

Hannah: Yeah. Exactly.

Hannah: You know, what are you doing? Relax. Oh, look. I see you relaxing over there in your comfy clothes. What the fuck? Get back to work. It’s that weird thing that even if people aren’t saying that to us and genuinely they’re not, right? But actually, we’re hearing that, especially if we’ve had a lifetime of people telling us, you know, “if you’d only done it better. Why did you do it like that, you idiot?” Um, so yeah.

Stuart: if you only were more organized,

Hannah: that’s what it is. 

Stuart: “Oh, I just didn’t realise. I thought being disorganised was the way forward. I had no idea”.

Hannah: And that’s the point. The amount of times, oh, I’m not going to go off on a rampage about this, but the number of times where I used to say to my mum all the time, and I still do occasionally, sorry, mom, if you’re listening. I’d say, “If you don’t have a fucking time machine and you can’t take me back to two days ago where I made a bad decision, then giving me a little 48 hour later lecture on like, “if only you’d done this”, just makes me feel worse.” It’s a kind of reminder of why I’m so stupid. 

Stuart: Thank you for attending my TED talk on why you need a time machine.

Hannah:  I wish I did have a time machine. I’d like to go back to the time when I was 16.

Stuart: Where would you go back to? What point? You get one hit. You get one hit and you’re there for an hour.

Hannah: Oh gosh, Stu. There’s so many points in my life. I’d like to go back and just watch the highlight reel of disappointment. And you know what? Most of them would just be going back and saying no. Stop it. Literally going back and Hannah, 16-year-old Hannah, “he’s an idiot”. Do not go out with this guy. 18-year-old Hannah, another idiot. Stop going out with idiots.

Stuart: Yeah. See, I didn’t have that trouble. That wasn’t where my idiocy played.

Hannah: There was a lot of desperation involved, Stu. You know, it wasn’t like there was a long queue of 20 suitors and I was like, “Which one shall I pick?” I was literally like, “I’ll pick the lunatic coz he’s the only one coming to the front of the queue.”

Stuart: Yeah. Dating advice. We have to definitely do a dating episode

Hannah: Definitely. I’m like a pro on that stuff on what not to do.

Stuart:  Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to give you a long list of things to avoid that apparently the opposite sex do not like. They do not have a fascination with the finer points of a VW cold engine, Stuart. I have seen many people’s hope die in their eyes, slip into a little coma, and fall over. Are you listening? He looks interesting. Let’s talk to him. Oh no. Oh no. This is bad.

Hannah: He’s too interesting. Can you be too interesting?

Stuart: I think you can.

Hannah: Oh my god. So my final point on this really would be the kind of reiteration that pushing through, burning yourself to a little crunchy crisp is just self harm. It’s literally self harm. There might be a point where you feel like “look at me being productive”, but actually you’re just hurting yourself. If you’re burning yourself out and trying to convince yourself that means that you’re achieving better or something, then you’re just kidding yourself at that stage. And it you know, persistently overriding those warning signs, feeling shit and kind of yeah, all of that stuff is so self-damaging. 

Stuart: Oh yeah. Yeah. It’s one of the things that will definitely lead to burnout there. And as you use more and more of your energy to run faster and faster and faster, your ability to cope with it goes down. So you make more mistakes

Hannah: And then you end up in a self-defeating spiral which always ends up under a duvet with the lights off, crying, rocking, eating marshmallows. I don’t know why I said that. That’s just me, I think.

Stuart:Try not to get crumbs in the bed.

Hannah: Yeah, marshmallows don’t produce crumbs. They are perfect.

Stuart:They got the sugary powder.

Hannah: Oh, yeah. They get all sticky. Yeah, we don’t want that. One thing I do want to add that came into my little brain. Don’t forget that one of the many benefits of being self-employed is that I don’t have to work between 9 and 5. So, if i’m i had a particularly productive evening last night where I actively decided to work on some strategy and stuff, for about you know from 7pm for a couple of hours that is not like “oh look at hannah working in the evening she’s a loser”.  I chose that and there was quite a lot of my day that I didn’t do any work, so I think we are made to feel that actually if you’re working outside of office hours, I’m doing the inverted commas obnoxious thing here, then you’re a loser. But actually that’s for me to decide when my office hours are. Or whenever I feel the need and it comes into my brain. Um, so yeah, I’m happy working in the evening because I’m not doing that coz I didn’t achieve enough in the day. I’m doing that because I chose that to be the part of my day that I’m doing some work. So, we all just have different levels of energy and times where our brains are really productive and when they’re not. So, that’s the joy of self-employment. I can work with that rather than try and fight it.

Stuart: Definitely. Definitely. That’s got to be one of the biggest benefits, the biggest luxury is being able to determine where and when you deliver the work. And in fact, it’s one of HMRC’s tests of whether you’re an employee or a self-employed person. Do you get to choose the means and method of which you deliver the work? 

And you know, I’ve always maintained that the work will not necessarily be done by me, might not necessarily be done by tomorrow. It will be done by the contracted date. And at that point I can determine whether or not what bits I need to deliver or what bits I can outsource. And I quite like to outsource the bits I don’t like. Even though sometimes I don’t make as much as the person I’ve outsourced to. 

The point being I’ve saved all of that time to earn again. So I do the bit that I really like. Hand off the bit that either I’m not particularly good at or stresses me out or for whatever reason I don’t want to or can’t do, and everyone wins and they get a project manager who knows at what stage various things are at. And that’s what they’re paying for. 

So, I don’t feel guilty that I’m not working 8 hour days as long as the customers are getting updated and they know what we’re doing. Most days I’m in the office by 10:00. Most days I’m in the office by 9:00 to be fair. But if i’m in at 9 and I know that I’ve got to be in at 10:00, that’s a win. That’s a pat on the back. Not that I should have been in at 8, you know. Oh, I’m an hour late. I’m only productive in the morning really. In the afternoon, I’m good. I’m all right. I will get on with some of my stuff, but I usually do the customer stuff in the morning because that’s when my brain can focus. Uh but once i’ve eaten, forget it. My brain’s digesting food, thinking about the next meal.

Hannah: Recently, my brain has obviously pressed some kind of button and unbeknownst to myself, my brain’s gone into what I call “granny mode” and I’ve started going to bed quite early and then waking up at 6:00. I’m literally my grandma.

I remember when I used to live in a flat beneath her and she’d get up at 4 and then in a really miserable way she’d say, “You don’t know when you get to my age. You don’t know how much time you’ve got. Oh my god, and I remember thinking, “Well, you know, that won’t happen to me.” But it is. I’m 51 years old. My brain’s like, “Make the most of it, Hannah. Maybe it’s sending me some kind of warning signal.” Um But yeah, I’m really a morning person and although I do some work in the evenings if it feels like the right moment, but actually yeah, in the morning I’m on fire and I’m just plowing through stuff and that’s the brilliant thing. When I was employed, they just got extra hours. I used to get into the office at 8 even though, or no about 7/7:30, even though I was being paid from 9:00. So they just got loads of extra time out of me. Work time for free which sucks. It does suck. But when your brain wants to do it, it’s almost like it doesn’t matter what you do, your brain’s going to be doing it. So, you might as well.

Stuart: Yeah. I have days where I wake up and I’ve got something obsessing in my brain. I just have to get into the office. But this is where I think you’ve got to make some adjustments. And this is where the real anti-hustle culture attitude has to come in because it has to meet real world conditions. You can say all of the good stuff, “Stu, if you want you can put your feet on the sofa and not work in the afternoon and make your time your own”. Yeah. Yeah. But I’ve got bills to pay and I’ve got work to do. We see this is where you have to, uh there are certain areas that you have to be really certain about and some that you make compromises about and things like financial pressure. So, there’s going to be financial pressure, but you have to have an honest conversation with your partner and your dependents and say “working this hard or doing this in this way, I’m going to burn out and then the recovery will be even harder”. So you need to have that honest conversation and I have had those conversations with Jem around this. And sometimes it’s just allowing your partner to let you be kinder to yourself. You know, coz if your partner truly loves you, they don’t want to see you burnt out and stressed and a complete mess. And like I was a hair trigger. I really was a hair trigger when I was close to burnout. You could say something nice to me and I would snap because I would hear it in a completely different tone in which it was delivered. Um so you need to have those conversations. And you also need to manage those external expectations. I think a lot of small business owners put way too much pressure on themselves when they could outsource and they could look at processes and systems which gives them more time. And what tends to happen is they look at the bottom line and they go, “Yeah, well, if I pay somebody to do that, I don’t earn that money and it costs me extra.” Well, they’re not making the full connection with what they get all the time back and that time can be spent doing more of the stuff. that they enjoy. So, their business ends up being less of a stress because they’re spending a greater percentage of the time doing the stuff they love. So, if you’re a designer and you hate doing accounts, get a bookkeeper, right? You’ll spend more time doing the stuff you like. It’s as soon as I realized that outsourcing and getting a PA and getting a bookkeeper and doing all of that and giving people the tasks and the jobs that I find stressful or take me twice as long as somebody else  I’m going to outsource that. Absolutely 100%.

Hannah: Exactly. Also, often a lot of those things that you’re needing to outsource, you’re paying that person probably less than you are able to billl for your own time. So, does that make sense?

Stuart: Oh, I think most of the people that I speak to, small business owners, are not charging enough for their time because they’re not building in a margin. So, think of it like this. You quote the customer to do a job and you think to yourself, “well, you know, as long as I’m earning £25 pounds an hour, that’s more than I’d be getting in a shop or whatever. It was my wage prior to being self-employed”. But you’re not factoring in what happens if you’re not available to do it. How do you fulfill that contract if suddenly you’re not there? And so, you have to charge a commercial rate because that’s the risk. You’re managing your time against not being able to do it or the project, for whatever reason, requiring somebody else to do it. If you’re not charging 30 quid or more at least, then you haven’t built enough margin in for risk, should you not be able to do it. And don’t think, “oh yeah, but I’m in good health” because life comes along.

Hannah: Oh yes, it does. Take away all those things you relied on. And also if you are neurodivergent, you don’t know when the neurodivergent brain is going to kick in and suddenly, you know…squirrel time! 

Stuart: Or, you know, I’ve had burnouts that come out of absolutely nowhere for reasons that I’m like, oh yeah, that was that thing three months ago that I’ve just finished processing. and now i just haven’t got any processing power.

So don’t make commercial errors when quoting for work and think about what happens if I’m not around to do this work. What happens? How do I get this work done? Because then you’re starting to think like a proper entrepreneur because you’re like, okay, so if I could outsource that and I could just go around hoovering up these jobs means that I can deliver the jobs without having to do all the work and yeah, I only get 20% of the of the money, but that’s 20% to do 100% of the stuff I love. I find it odd sometimes people’s attitudes to money. Money is a fungible resource. It comes, it goes. Time is finite.

Hannah: Absolutely. And I did a bit of research on this the other week. Did you know that the self-employed equivalent of the minimum wage is £18 an hour? So if you charge £18 an hour, you’re getting minimum wage. So that just shows you. It was just over £18 I think, but I can’t remember the exact numbers. But that just tells you that actually so many people when they ask my rate or they used to they’d be like oh but you know I could pay so and so like £12 whatever to do that. Yeah but it’s a completely different rate if you’re self-employed. I’m paying my own national insurance. I’m paying all the things that you would pay as an employer. So yeah, just think about that. If you’re looking at what you want to charge or what you should charge an hour, then it has to be up from £18 an hour. Otherwise, you’re on minimum wage.

Stuart: Crazy. The thing is also you, a self-employed person, you own your own job. You’re your own manager. You have to do all of the associated tax national insurance. all of the accounting around that, managing the money, chasing the money, getting the money in, dealing with suppliers, dealing with all of the other things that go with it. 

£18 an hour. Seriously, if somebody came to me and said, “Could you run my business for £18 an hour?” Not going to happen. Run it and make £18 an hour!

Hannah: Oh, yeah.

Stuart: But I think people undervalue their time massively. And also, you overestimate the amount of time you think that you can be earning. I would like people to realise that you’re going to be earning for about 10 months a year. I can’t live on that! No, you’re going to be earning 10 months a year. You got a four week holiday, right? And if you go, “Oh, yeah. Well, I just won’t take any holidays.” Welcome to Burnout Town. That’s where it starts. That’s the hustle culture right there.

Hannah: I’m the poster girl for never taking any holidays. Do not do this.

Stuart: Well, you get seven bank holidays a year anyway. So, you’re not going to be earning on those days. Well, some people, some people will, you know, if you’re a plumber or whatever, but the point to it is that those are seven rest days.

Where are you going to insert those rest days? Oh, I’m just not going to. Okay, that’s all right. If you’re quite young, you’ll burn some of your youth away. You’ll lose a few months of your life. And that will sustain you for a bit, but it’s a little bit like um going into the overdraft. You know, the bank’s going to look the other way if you’ve got an arranged overdraft for 100 quid, but don’t spend 200 quid.

And I’ve seen it happen. And people think that they can make up the shortfall in their earnings by working harder and doing more hours where they’re underpaying themselves. That doesn’t lead anywhere good. And I absolutely 100% know because I did it.

Hannah: Me too. Me too. I did it. I remember when, you know, we’ve talked about signal um earlier on in this podcast, but it’s a fabulous local networking community. Well, so much more than that. I remember when I first joined there and I spoke to Emma, who is the owner, the runner of the whole thing and she asked me what I charged per hour and it was something really pathetic. And I said it proudly, I think it was like 20 quid an hour and I was like “20 pounds!. That’s pretty good coz like that’s way more than the £12 minimum wage”  and she just looked at me, and was like “ you need to be charging double what you are for what you do”.  

That was such an eyeopener for me. That was ages ago now, a lot has changed and I’ve got that confidence and all of that stuff.  Triggered from that moment. Emma, if you’re listening …but my point being when we’re setting our own wage it can be really awkward because we’re like “I don’t really know” and you look at your industry, and you see what people are charging, and you know the top end or the midpoint and all of that stuff. But actually we’re not usually, most of us are probably, or have been at a point in our lives as a self-employed person, not charging enough. I did it for about six years charging a pittance and then the eyeball opening moment where I realised I could do half that work for the same money if I just charged the right amount was like ping giant light bulb. It’s not difficult maths is it? But it took me a while to get to it. 

Stuart: So, and if you’re getting push back um from the market, from the customers, you’re either talking to the wrong people or the value of what you’re delivering has not been fully expressed.

Just as a complete aside, if you’re thinking, “Oh god, 20 an hour and then doubling it to 40 hour.” Let me give you a viewpoint from a retail perspective. When you buy something in the shops that is not the price that everyone who has handled that product has paid. That’s the retail price. The way a retail price works is, and I’m going back a bit here, you know, I used to have a business that created retail products that were in popular stores across the world. And it used to be that the manufacturer would double the price of the cost of manufacturing. So if something cost 50 cents, it was always done in cents, world reserve banking currency. Um, if it cost 50 cents to produce, the manufacturer would sell it for a dollar. Okay? And they would sell it to the wholesaler. Now, the wholesaler would get that preferential price because they were going to buy a million units a year, you know, so they went, “Okay, so it’s a pound per unit or sorry, a dollar per unit.” The wholesaler sells to the retailer at double the price. So the wholesaler is now selling it to the retailer for $2 a unit. So that’s four times the amount it costs to make it. 

Has it increased in value by four times? No. It’s all the work that it’s taken to get that product to the point where it’s in the shop. Now the retailer, they will mark it up. And I’m talking about novelties and gifts, was my area. Other other areas, other industries use different multipliers. and multipliers change as well. There’s my disclaimer. Um, the retailer would mark it up between 2.3 and 2.5 times. Okay, so that means if the retailer, if the wholesaler is buying it for a quid and selling it for two quid, the retailer will buy it for $2, will probably sell it for $5 because that’s about two and a half times the $2. So that’s how you get to a $4.99 price. So when you see something in a retail store that is 50% off, they’re still making money on it. 

Okay, not maybe the right margin, but they’re still making money on it depending on their overheads. And you need the reason I highlight that is if you’re doing work for somebody, okay, it’s the amount of value you’re bringing to it, not the number of hours. So your multiplier is your hourly rate. Okay, rather than just multiplying it by these agreed standards, I am asking and giving permission to everybody who’s listening to this to increase their hourly rate. How much you increase it is up to you. But if you have not increased your hourly rate in the last two years, you have effectively been discounted by inflation of about 10% at least if not 15%. Maybe 20% depends. But if you think about it in real terms, the £100 that you earn is now not buying £100 worth of stuff, it’s buying 80 worth of stuff. So you’ve got to multiply and that’s the insidious march of inflation. Um, so do look at your pricing. If you’re thinking to yourself, but sure I can’t slow down. Look at your pricing. That’s where I would start, like can you afford to take some hours back? Try instead of trying to increase the number of uh the number in your bank account Look to see if you can reduce the number of hours you’re working and keep the same income because that’s the key to this. This is the thing. You’re going to work against your internal culture. You know, we’ve all got it. It doesn’t matter what culture, what society. I’ve got the good old protestant work ethic. You get up, you do your eight hours, you contribute to society.

Hannah: Keep burning.

Stuart: Burn through that, baby. Burn through all of that. Everything you’ve got. We want it all. We want you wrung out at 65. crying. So, let’s say we’ve perfected our hourly rate. Let’s say we’ve perfected the number of hours we’re putting into the week. How do we prevent this coming back and, you know, like a rising tide, like work inflation? How do we stop the hustle from knocking at the door and letting itself back in?

Hannah: I think we need to redefine it really, don’t we? We need to kind of step away from the idea that we are only valued on the amount of our output. Yeah we need to get away from that and it’s really hard because we live in a society where we are told repeatedly that we are only defined on what we produce, whatever that is.

Stuart: well we got to shift the paradigm

Hannah: yeah

Stuart: And the way the paradigm shifts is in your own head. First you don’t expect the world to align and then you can. This is what I do not understand. People complain about stuff not being the way they want and yet they don’t want to change their own behavior. They want to wait for the world to change and then they’ll change. And it’s like that’s not how change works. Having experienced massive change in my own life because of self-directed action, it always happens because internally I don’t want to live in a world where there’s litter. So I pick up litter when I see it. And I’ve had people say to me in the street, “Oh, leave it. That’s somebody else’s job.” It’s like, “Not quite the attitude, is it?” But that’s the same with anything. If you want to see the change, be the change. And I know that’s a bit woo and a bit kind of, you know,

Hannah: I love the woo. I am all over the woo woo. 

Stuart: and a bit self-helpy, but it is a self-evident truth to me. It’s like when I went from being an engineer to an actor, I just started telling everyone I was an actor. I waited for the world to catch up. And I think that’s the same with the anti-hustle. You have to internalise it and go, you’ve got to put in the right, you know, checks and balances. But if tomorrow is Friday, and  I’ve got an event in the morning and the rest of my Friday is sacrosanct, I will answer an email or two but I will go and progress my own life projects, my own special interests um without any guilt. It’s the guilt though. Oh, I’m doing this. Oh, there’s, you know, the big man in the sky or whatever shape, flavor, or you know, coloration that is for you in your life. They’re all looking over my shoulder and judging me and i’m a poor person. And you just got to get that narrative and squash it. It has to die because

Hannah: kill it

Stuart: coz there’s only two two outcomes to this. Either you burn out, which is a little bit of you dying, or that attitude dies.

Hannah: Exactly that. And actually, why are we not, or you and I probably are to be honest with you, but a lot of people won’t be. Why are we not celebrating the maintenance, the day-to-day, the stuff that we just get done? Why are we thinking that we are defined by what we create, but actually just celebrating the systems, the relationships, the existing work, all of that stuff? That’s just as important as generating new ideas. You know, if you get to the end of your day and you’ve managed to keep the plates in the air without adding new ones in, that’s incredible, right? That should be celebrated. That is an achievement. Oh, if you’re up and dressed before lunch,

Stuart: Yeah, that’s the ticket. I just managed to have a cup of tea. I’m celebrating

Hannah:. So, maintenance is a really integral part of the process. So, it’s not ‘less than’ If you get to the end of, I mean, I’ve said it myself. You get to the end of the day and you think, “Oh, I didn’t really do much.” And what you mean, or what I mean when I’m being self-deprecating like that, is that I didn’t do anything new, but I have done stuff. I’ve finished all the stuff I needed to do that day. So, you know, all the day-to-day stuff that was on my mental list. Um, and and yet sometimes we beat ourselves up because we didn’t add anything fancy, new, and shiny to the mix.

Stuart: There’s also just getting through a day. Sometimes that’s enough. You got a hectic day and you’ve done eight hours and you get to the end of it and you feel or you get to the end of the week and you just are done. Well done. Congratulations. You got to the end of the week and it doesn’t matter really what you achieved. Yes, you want to be, you know, a little further ahead than behind, but there’s always next week.

Hannah: Yeah. And stop raising the bar, right? If we keep raising that self-expectation bar, then it’s just going to lead us into exhaustion town.

Stuart: Nobody wants on their tombstone capable of a 16-hour day. Died at 40.

Hannah: The family didn’t, the kids never recognised them. Yeah.

Stuart: Exactly.

Hannah: And it, you know, I think this is something I struggle with because I am a perfectionist and I used to say that like a badge of honor, but actually sometimes it is quite often to my detriment because I find it really hard to know when something is complete and sufficient and enough. Because I have that inner pressure that’s like “it’s not quite there”. You know, that perfectionism which I think  if a therapist was here now would probably say it was linked to some form of power, you know, some kind of control in my brain. We won’t go there because you do not want to take the lift off  my brain? That will end badly.

Stuart: If a friend came to you and they were saying all this, you’d be like, “Chill out, dude. Calm down.” You know, you don’t understand. I’ve got to do 80-hour weeks. Why? Well, because it shows that I’m a proper entrepreneur “Does it now”?

Hannah: Yeah. It just shows that you’re slowly fading into burnout town.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it does creep back in. I’ll just do an extra one. I’ll just do Oh, or the knock at the door. Ring of the bell, email drops, shiny nice new piece of work. Oh, I can do that. Let me do that. This weekend I got an offer for a gig in London.

Hannah: Nice.

Stuart: At the Science Museum. Starts at 9:00 at night on a Sunday. Now, that’s a hard no for me.

Hannah: I’m in my pajamas by then.

Stuart: Like being in central London at 9pm on a Sunday. The number has to be large. and a car at either end. I’m not driving there and I’m not driving back. “Stuart, that’s a bit up yourself?”. No, those are my expectations.

Hannah: Yeah. But that’s really important, isn’t it? It’s the red rope around the time.

Stuart: I’m telling you.

Hannah: And I’m not there yet coz i’m like, “I’ll do it, Stu. I just need to be a lot taller”.

Stuart: But you see, this is where gigging actually was really good because when we used to do gigs and we had gigs like this, 9pm in London, 3 hours per performance and then home. It’s not 3 hours. It’s not even the 3 hours before the 3 hours. So, you know, leaving home, picking up the other person in the act, driving to the place, parking, getting in ahead, being there at least an hour and a half beforehand, getting into costume, getting into character, doing the gig, getting out of costume, getting out of character, making sure the customer’s happy. It takes about an hour. Back in the car, you’re back home. You’re home at 3:00 in the morning. So, that’s taken you 9 hours. That’s a 9 hour day to do a 3-hour gig.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: And that’s pretty representative. But that’s not the end of the gig coz when you get home from work at 5 in the morning or 7 in the morning, you don’t go straight to bed.

Hannah: No.

Stuart: So at 3:00, you’re sitting around going, “I’m going to have a cup of tea. I’m wide awake.” You know, so you have a cup of tea and then you go to bed and then you get up at 10am, 5-6 hours after you’ve been to sleep and then you put your foot back on the accelerator coz you’re like the manager of your own act. So you then get into business and too much of that just burns you out. And I don’t think people realise actually that their equivalent of whatever a gig is um is taking the toll it is on their time and and basically corroding their soul.

Hannah: That’s why you need to up your prices and lower your work hours.

Stuart: Yeah, exactly that. Well, what politician’s ever going to get voted for saying that, isn’t it? Double your prices and half your hours, GDP.

But, you know, on the back of what you just said, it’s being realistic about what the task, the job, the client, whatever it is, takes out of you. Because we’ve all worked with clients where, you know, writing a blog for one client is not exactly the same as writing a blog for another client. You know, one of them might take forever to sign it off, and you’re chasing and chasing and chasing and suddenly that work time even if it’s just literally repeatedly chasing whatever it is suddenly that that feels like you need to charge a lot more for the stress and trauma surrounding that project or that piece of work or you need to be realistic about how much time and energy it actually takes you to do that. So a lot of us are not doing that. We’re thinking oh it’s a two-hour job we’ll charge two hours and we’re not taking into account the mental load of all of that stuff. The other thing you should do if you are providing uh project work is tack on one or two hours for admin. That is comp that’s not harming anyone. 

It’s proving to the customer that you’re taking this seriously. You can just blend it into the project hours. But there will be an amount of admin especially if you’re outsourcing and using uh freelancers because you’ve got to brief them. You’ve got to look over their shoulder. You’ve got to make sure that they are provisioned and briefed correctly. 

Um before we wrap it up with some takeaways and some tips, I think that the final sort of points I would like to make about building a life that doesn’t require hustle to function and inevitable burnout is to be very very clear and honest about what your personal life human requirements are. If you need eight hours of sleep, that’s a non-negotiable. Okay, that has to be sacrosanct. 

Don’t start chipping away at it and expect good things to happen. I’ve got some rules. I’ve explained the rules around my life. Oh, an autist with rules. Who’d have thought that? Um, but the point is these rules are built up and I was talking to my daughter about this. They’re there as guidelines more than rules. Like I’ve got a rule that I’m not in the office after 7pm. Now twice this week I’ve been in the office after 7:00, but that’s because I didn’t get in till lunchtime and I just had some work that needed to be done. But next week, no days after 7pm. Doesn’t matter when I start because I know that that’s the erosion. That’s the red rope being burnt through and I’m not respecting my own rules. 

And if i can’t respect them, don’t expect anybody else to because you’ll constantly be making exceptions. Oh, it’s because they’re this. Oh, because they’re that. So, have some hard and fast rules that you are allowed to be flexible with up to a point. Um, make life simpler. You know, say no to a few things. If a job makes your heart sink or a customer, this was always a good ch a good test as to whether or not it was good work. When the phone rings or the email drops. If your heart goes, “Oh, what do they want this time?” Yeah, that’s not a good relationship. Imagine that relationship.

Hannah: Set them free at that point.

Stuart: Exactly. Imagine that relationship in your house. That was your relationship with your wife. If that if that is your reality, i’m really sorry. Yeah. Oh god, what does she want? Too many times like that. That’s not right. So, you know, have a word. Um, energy buffers, otherwise known as fire breaks. Okay, you have to take time off to recover and really it’s not recovery, it’s preparation for the work to come. So that’s why you got two days at the weekend. One day to recover, one day to prepare for the work that’s going to come. Um and that’s the way I am at the weekend. If somebody wants me to work, they’re going to pay a lot of money, enough money that it’s going to deter them from asking me because it often offends people. No full stop, no explanation, no backup, no “i’m sorry”, but he said no. And he’s not justifying himself. Um, I need to get angry. That will make him change his mind. Okay, good luck with that. 

Um, oppositional defiance disorder. Look it up. Uh, and then making it a long-term plan and a long-term energy and personal safety plan because what you are doing requires more energy than you have. It’s like trying to spend more money than you’ve got. You will end up overdrawn and bad things will happen. So, I think from my own perspective, have I got the balance right? I think I’ve got it righter than I have. Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be? Don’t think so. I’m not the kind of guy who aims for perfection. I aim for the finish. Yeah. Is it right? Maybe this is coming from an engine. So, uh, what are your takeaways?

Hannah: Takeaways? Top tips from a magnificent episode. Really good. There was a lot. There was a lot going on there that I had to be like, “Oh, oh, yeah. I am meant to be doing all that stuff.”

Stuart: Yeah. It’s not just written down on a piece of paper. It’s a lived experience. 

Hannah: Yeah. Some of my tips. Just remind yourself that hustle for us often just feels like safety. We’re using that not really to to prove our ambition, but actually it’s a kind of safe place for us, a control place for us. So, we need to remind ourselves of that because quite often it’s just pretty damaging to be honest with you. But then, you know, we’re told to slow down and it’s really really important for us to do that. But we need to be prepared for the fact that that will often trigger fear. 

Because we’re, you know, everything in our brain is telling us that we must never slow down. Um, and when we go into the anti-hustle culture, you know, we fight the hustle, it doesn’t mean emptiness. It just means better structure. It just means more structure to the way that we sort of navigate our days. 

Um, and a big one for me, your worth is not based on your productivity levels. And productivity looks different to everybody, right? We’ve already discussed this in a lot of detail, but you know, it could just be getting to the end of your day, not hurting anybody, not sending any ‘fuck off’ emails, and eating some food at some point, drinking enough water. That’s a win.

Stuart: Oh, I haven’t drunk any water today.

Hannah: Oh god, me neither. Oh no, I did have a cup of tea. Um, so that’s the point, isn’t it? Actually, rather than creating an invisible imaginary bar of what it looks like, this bar that we’re meant to be, reaching with our productivity. Set your own goals, you know, and there will be days where you just think to yourself, ‘if i can get to the end of this day without being rude to anybody in my family and making sure i drink enough water, then that is a massive pat on the back win for me”. 

Um and sustainability, I’ve just said that really, but you know, sustaining the things that you need to do today is an active choice. You can choose that and you can decide that that’s a really good thing and an achievement. Um, it isn’t any less that. It doesn’t make it like you’re settling. Like you’re not being productive enough. Um, and lastly for me, I’ve learned this in recent years and often the hard way really. But actually, I feel now that my life is really meaningful and really successful and it’s quieter and I’m not hustling mainly because I’m too old and crap to do that. 

But luckily, my brain didn’t want to stop the hustle. My body did. So, actually, I’m a really good poster girl for this and my body was like, “Okay, this woman is never going to sort her own shit out. So, we’re just going to need to shut down some of the systems so that we’re reigning her in because she can’t rein herself in.” Um, and that’s really important because actually I’ve learned a lot from that. I wish I hadn’t had to, but actually it has done me a huge favor because the life that I live now and the way that I run my day-to-day and my business is completely different and there’s so much more happiness and joy in there. So, um, sorry that that was like we needed some background music, some slow like a kind of weird dream scenario where I’m like and “now I’m just living my best life”. Um, so that’s it really. Just don’t buy into the hustle. That’s my best tip today.

Stuart: Fantastic. Well, let me give you a rundown of my top tips. If you’re feeling guilty doing less, that’s conditioning not truth. If the hustle urge is strong or rising, ask what will happen if you stop? What is the negative outcome of me not doing 16-hour days? And you’re going to say it’s financial. Look at your pricing. Um no structure without hustle. You have to train yourself to have greater respect for your time and your energy and create gentler rhythms in your life. Because i think that a lot of people hit their 40s and they’ve been burning through their youthful energy and they get to a point where their ability to cope. They’re all out of ‘cope’. Their cope goes away. A life event happens. Either a health event, a a familial member event, a work event, some kind of big old, you know, you’re not walking away without a scar from this one event occurs and something falls off the table and your ability to cope goes away and that’s when it usually hits because that’s when mine i the the one that i had in my mid20s was very specific for the trauma before but the big one during my late 30s early 40s was completely due to disrespecting my own animal. The meat suit, 

Hannah: I love that

Stuart: Whatever you want to call it. Um, stop comparing yourselves to other people. Just be your own unique snowflake. I know that’s really really easy to say and much harder in person, but we are fairly unique individuals. Embrace the unique. In fact, more people are embracing their own uniqueness. And these days, you walk around, I tell you what, go out into the world, go and wander around your nearest urban town, village, city, whatever it is, and just stand there and look at the people walking past. There won’t be any who look the same, and they’re all going through their own bizarre, twisted version of whatever this existence is. So, you know, be kind to yourself and realise that you are different to a vast majority of people in a way that those people will never even be able to comprehend. 

So, be kind to yourself because having the same attitude to yourself as other people is counterproductive and is certainly not anti-hustle. Um, if you’re thinking that you’re falling behind or you’re lacking momentum, so what? It isn’t that you check out and then they look at your life and go, “Oh, well, you know, they didn’t earn enough. Oh, well, that’s it. Don’t record their name in the register.” There was a moment in 2024 where they weren’t quite hustling hard enough. In October, he went in at 10:00 a.m., not 9. Get rid of him now. Put his name under Hitler. There we go. Yeah. Move Stalin down. Put him in.

Hannah: Oh, there he goes.

Stuart: There we are. And if you think you need to seek permission, obviously have conversations with your loved ones about slowing down. But if you think you need to have permission to take it easy and be gentle and kind on yourself, i’m telling you right now, you have my permission. You have Hannah’s permission. You are enough. Doesn’t matter what you churn out, what you produce. Yes, fantastic works of art, great uh pieces of work, innovative and skillful uses of technology, fabulous. Just getting through the week and putting food on the table can be enough, you know. It’s a long old life. Live it well and be easy on yourself. Right, that’s this week’s core. There’s a lot in there. A lot to unpack.

Hannah: There’s a lot. Yeah, my little brain’s like catching up with all of so much information, but fabulous. 

Stuart: If you’ve liked it, like, share, and subscribe. Tell people. Send it to a stranger. Play it on your phone in a crowded train carriage and see if you can’t win us a few listens, maybe a like.

Hannah: That’s like a pay it forward moment.

Stuart: It is. Offer our magnificence to random people. They’ll think you’re a bit weird, maybe. But in fact, send it to someone you hate. We don’t care. We don’t care what your relationship to them is. Just get it out. But thank you for listening, Hannah. But what’s next week’s topic?

Hannah: Next week is pretty well related to this week really. So, it’s about protecting your energy when the world won’t slow down.

Stuart: So, we’ve got a lot of good advice in there.

Hannah: Fantastic.

Stuart: Okay. Well, join us again next week. Same place as this week, episode 29 next week.

Hannah: Whoa. Really?

Stuart Morrison: Oh, yeah. I know. I know. Been going for more than half a year. So, listen, share, subscribe, like, do all of those things and we See you next week. Thanks very much for listening. Goodbye.

Hannah: Bye.

Eps 27 – After Burnout: What Recovery Actually Looks Like for ND People
Burnout recovery is often sold as a quick reset: take a break, recharge, come back stronger… and immediately traumatised again. But for neurodivergent people, that story isn’t just wrong — it can be genuinely harmful. Because ND burnout isn’t “a bit tired”. It’s cognitive shutdown, emotional flattening, nervous system overload, and that brutal loss of capacity where even eating, talking, or choosing batteries can feel like advanced-level admin.

In this episode, we unpack what recovery actually looks like: slower than anyone expects, wildly non-linear, and misunderstood (even by people who love you). We talk about why you can’t speedrun recovery, why energy comes back lumpy, and why “just rest” is useless advice when rest takes energy you don’t have. We also explore the grief that can come with burnout — because you might not return to the exact version of you that existed before — and how to rebuild in a way that doesn’t recreate the conditions that broke you.

Expect practical, ND-realistic support (sausage sandwiches in the cave included): boundaries and the “red rope”, safe words for when you’re non-speaking, protecting recovery like an injury, and redefining success as stability, regulation, and designing a life that actually fits. No hustle. No heroics. Just a kinder way forward.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to the Show & small win for having put out 6 months of episodes.
00:01:50 – Topic of the Week: After Burnout – What Real Recovery Looks Like for NDs
00:02:35 – What ND burnout is and is not and how it affects the ND
00:04:37 – Burnout is NOT just extreme tiredness
00:06:34 – Zoning Out and failing to focus and other tales from the brownout zone
00:08:55 – The frustrations with the help – NT baseline is not ND baseline
00:09:47 – What the worst time to plan for a disaster is… Soup is the answer, no spoon shame
00:12:22 – Why does recovery from burnout take longer than you expect?
00:13:45 – Physical injuries are given sympathy, however a burnout…
00:16:00 – The recovery is not linear, even or pretty…
00:18:45 – Healing takes place almost invisibly, usually in a cave
00:19:50 – The pressure to bounceback quickly, and the harm of it
00:21:27 – Hannah’s tale of her daughter’s burnout and productivity guilt
00:24:04 – Rushing recovery prolongs the burnout
00:25:40 – The long term health effects of burnout and dealing with idiots
00:29:08 – PSA: To those who need to hear it.
00:30:34 – Recovery is not linear, properly recover before you ramp work back up
00:31:42 – Stop-start energy has to acknowledged
00:34:10 – Rebuilding capacity without recreating burnout, recognise the triggers
00:36:25 – Listen to your rhythms, tracking and identifying “lagging indicators”
00:39:30 – What support helps? A sausage sandwich is an act of love…
00:44:07 – DEPLOY the red rope, rainbow rope, electrified rope or barbed wire…
00:46:08 – Final point – redefining “success” after burnout – BE KIND TO YOURSELF
00:52:49 – Why self employment helps and the takeaways
00:53:00 – Do not rush recovery, DO NOT RUSH THE FLUSH
00:54:00 – Recovery takes longer than you think it takes
00:55:00 – A slower life can be a successful life
00:57:06 – Hints and tips – have some “safe” words
00:59:15 – Avoid “catastrophising” small setbacks
00:59:49 – Brain fog is real, be kind to yourself
01:00:07 – Protect your recovery like a physical injury
01:00:25 – Recovery takes the same amount of time (or more) as it took you to burnout
01:03:11 – Life after recovery can be very different to life before, embrace it
01:04:20 – Final comments and wrapping up
01:05:26 – Next Week’s Topic: The Anti-Hustle Tool Kit: Doing Less Without Falling Apart
01:07:15 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

ANTI HUSTLE MANIFESTO – COMING SOON!

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
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instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

Stuart: It’s the Business Oddcast and I’m your host Stuart Morrison and my co-host is 

Hannah: Hannah Logan, channeling the 80s today in my fabulous 80s jumper. 

Stuart: Fantastic. And today is very special. It’s the second episode of March and it’s our 27th episode.

Hannah: Why is that special, Stuart?

Stuart: I don’t know. It just feels special.

Hannah: Feels really special to me. Yeah. 27. Cool. That means we’ve been going for more than half a year. That is incredible.

Stuart: That’s quite good, isn’t it?

Hannah: Oh, that’s giant. When people used to say, “Give yourself a pat on the back,” I wanted to punch them in the face. But I am going to give myself a little pat on the back coz well done, Stu. We’re amazing.

Stuart: We did it. We did 27. Wow. So, with that that said, what is our topic of the week, Hannah Logan?

Hannah: Ah, so last week we were looking at energy. Um, for those of you that haven’t listened to it, what is wrong with you? get back there and listen to last week’s!

Um, following on from that,  we were looking at ND energy last week and burnout and stuff, and today’s topic is After burnout: what recovery actually looks like for ND people. There could be some crying Stu!.

Stuart: I was going to say March is just going to be full of trauma. I’m really sad. This is the sad month. But you can balance it out with way too much chocolate towards the end of the month for Easter and stuff so yeah Yeah, it’ll be okay.

Hannah: Yeah. Longer nights, lighter days, daffodils.

Stuart: Oh, spring. Spring is sprung. So, with that in mind, what is the topic introduction?

Hannah: Yeah. So, burnout recovery is often talked about like a kind of quick reset, like you know, take a break, recharge, come back stronger, ready to trauma yourself again. Um, for people like us, for the neurodivergent people out there, that narrative is not just inaccurate, but actually it’s really harmful. Because it not only changes people’s expectations of us, like have a little sleep, get an early night, you’ll be fine right as rain tomorrow, maybe some vitamin C.

Stuart: Yes, take some vitamins, glass of orange juice.

Hannah: Um, not only does it ruin their expectations, but actually I think it exacerbates them, or it certainly exacerbates the pressure I put on myself as well. Because I’m like “I’m not good enough. Why am I still tired?” 

ND burnout isn’t just tiredness, right? We all know that. You’re probably listening and nodding along out there. Um it’s our system being completely overloaded. It involves cognitive shutdown, emotional flattening, um just a general loss of capacity that doesn’t magically return after a week, a holiday or a week off or even a blooming weekend off. 

We talked about this last episode, you know, for a lot of us the weekend isn’t like we can go up to London for the weekend. Um, go clubbing. No, my weekend is horizontal mainly just sucking in some fresh oxygen and trying to reinflate my broken tired out body. It’s like a little pump. You know, I put a little pump on my body and just pump myself up for the weekend. Um That’s a strange thing to say. Sorry, Stu. Um, so actually this episode is about naming what that burnout recovery actually looks like. So, you know, looking at the idea that it is slower than expected. It’s not linear. It’s deeply frustrating.

Stuart: One word, it’s brutal.

Hannah: It is. It really is. And it’s often so misunderstood by the people around us. And I think that’s what makes it more brutal. Right.

Stuart: Oh, absolutely. It’s like, “Oh, why didn’t you rest?” Do you not know that rest takes energy? Like just existing and I have zero. I’m like a mobile phone with one bar and you’re trying to make all of the phone calls and surf the internet. No. No.

Hannah: Download a movie at the same time.

Stuart: Oh, just dim the screen a little bit. It’s not going to work.

Hannah: So, this episode is not about bouncing back. It’s about finding a way forward that doesn’t recreate the same conditions that caused the burnout in the first place. So on that note, we will sort of dig slightly deeper into the idea that our burnout is not “I can’t speak. Can somebody get a bed for Hannah, please?” Our burnout is not just extreme tiredness. So we’ve talked about how it affects the cognition, emotion, nervous system. It basically, if I’m not careful, turns me into an utter lunatic.

Stuart: Tiredness is in there. is one of the threads, but that’s not the whole of it.

Hannah: No. And it feels, you know, like some people are like, “Oh, I’m a bit tired.” But what they mean is they’ll sit down for half an hour, have a drink, get some H2O inside them, and then they’re back in the room. 

Stuart: But it’s not, you know, for us it involves brain fog, executive dysfunction. It’s like, it’s like having your IQ. You know, you’re running on fumes and your brain is down. I mean, we talked about this a bit in the last episode, but your brain is down to like essential processes only. Um, except you keep opening new apps and the browser’s got four sessions, 92 tabs open, music playing, not sure where that’s coming from. Um, the mouse keeps glitching. It’s just yeah, emotional shutdown or or volatility is um yeah, just we talked about it last week as being an energy overdraft and it really is.

Yeah. It’s the lack of ability to run the machinery that makes up your physiology.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: It can appear like you’re confused, drunk even, like you’re making poor choices. You’re, I don’t know if you’ve had this one…. I can think of three major burnouts in my life.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And a few, as we talked about last week, were some brown outs. Just like, you know, I had to go away and regroup. Um but have you had this? You’re doing a mundane task, and then you suddenly wake up inside your brain and go why am I even staring at the batteries?

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: And you can’t even remember, and you look at your phone and you’re like oh yeah batteries. And then you’re like “why do we need the batteries?” And it’s like just peeling away layers to try and just figure out which batteries you need because you can visualize them and you go, “Oh, they’re double A and it’s just like the cogs are so slow and slipping and not engaging. I just find it the absolute worst. I was like living alone the first time it happened, the doctor diagnosed depression.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: I’m not necessarily certain that there wasn’t an element of depression. But I’m not necessarily sure that it wasn’t a huge huge autistic burnout.

Hannah: I think Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And you and I, we’ve shared this many times. But we’re both late diagnosed.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: And we’ve talked about this ourselves between us, but the light bulb moment wasn’t just like a light bulb. It was like the world’s biggest. It was like the sun when I was like, “Oh, you know, you get that diagnosis, that reality, and then you’re like, you look back like a bit like, you know, that advert where that deer is almost getting hit by a car and it sees like all the different kind of younger versions of itself. You know, I remember that reality of finding out like, oh, and then looking back on all these situations in life and going, “okay, giant light bulb, I can just understand all of it now”. Um, so yeah, but you do have to have a degree of self awareness.

You really do because that also for me that helps with the shame. When I’m self-aware and I’m able to own stuff and recognize situations and my part in them, then actually I don’t feel so ashamed because there’s less confusion surrounding that situation. Does that make sense? I think I’ve made it more confusing by the way that I just explained.

Stuart: No, no, I think I’m there. And it’s really frustrating when you go to find help, whatever that looks like, whether it’s actually going to the doctor or talking to someone or reading stuff. If people don’t know you’re neurodiverse, they don’t know what the baseline is that you’re coming from.

Well-meaning, well-trained, genuine human beings who have nothing but the best interest in you can get it hugely wrong.

Hannah: Hugely wrong.

Stuart: And once you know how you present in burnout. You’re better able to treat yourself, but you’re at the worst possible point in treating yourself when you’re in the middle of burnout. And like I say to people, the worst time to plan for a disaster is in the middle of a disaster. So, what’s the plan? And it’s the same with burnout. If you learn about it beforehand and you understand what it looks like on the way in and you have a plan that you’re like, “Right, this is why we’ve got an overwhelm kit on the website which takes you through some scenarios and tells you what you could think to put in place before you need to put it in place because guess what? You haven’t got the energy to put anything in place, let alone put a plan together. You’ll be lucky if you can eat and get it in your mouth and find the right spoon to be able to do that as well.

Oh, I tell you, one of my comfort foods when I was in my complete burnout was soup. It’s so easy. Just pour it in, heat it up, and eat soup. And whilst it’s doing a bit of toast uh to dunk into it, it can be a real restorer, you know, like broth or something, you know, and if you’re hungry and you can’t think straight until you’ve got food in you, it’s like an emergency go to hit of of energy to at least get you to the point where you then can’t make a decision.

But if you’re running on empty and you can’t make a decision, soup. And I had an absolute 2 hour crying fit because I couldn’t find my favorite spoon and I’d forgotten that I had uh taken it over to my parents. Um yes, I carry my spoon.

Hannah: There is nothing wrong with that. There is no shame. No spoon shame here.

Stuart: It was the thing. And the reason I took it over there was to show my dad to say, “Um, we had these spoons as a kid. Do you have any more of them?” Because my dad never threw anything out. And in doing that, he said, “Leave it with me. I think I’ve got some in the shed.” And I forgot to take it because I left it with him. And so I was just having this whole thing, then it just felt impossible to get in the car to drive to my parents to get the spoon coz it’s like for fuck sake, why can’t you eat your soup without the spoon. The shame, but you see you’re not thinking clearly. The brain is just chocker with cobwebs.

Hannah: It’s like the blind leading the blind at that point, isn’t it? Trying to get yourself Yeah.Yeah. So that kind of leads us really onto the next point really of kind of why recovery takes longer than you expect.

Stuart: Well, you see, for me it’s the lack of prep. It was the lack of preparation. I wasn’t expecting it. It was all consuming. I literally lay on my bed for days. And I mean laid on my bed for days. And It’s not even a lack of motivation. It’s the absence of thought. Like you think to yourself, “Oh, I should eat, and then your brain just sluggishly goes “but you got to stand up and walk over there and get a pan out”, and that just already feels like three things that you don’t have any energy for. Um, so it just feels unbearable. Um, and this is terrible because the rest of the world is foot on the accelerator and saying why can’t you keep up? And it’s like I’m not built the same way. Just look at me. You’re asking a very large gentleman to move quickly. Do I look like an athlete? Um, and that nervous system outage, burnout, um, needs a complete reset. It needs you to take time for the animal inside you to reconnect and recharge and recuperate and all of the other re-words that that get you back on your feet.

A physical injury, you tend to get a buy for.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: You know, in fact, there’s two levels of physical. There’s the accidental physical injury, however that’s so caused, trip, fall, whatever, you know, going about your normal day, paint can drops on you, whatever. People go, “Oh, really?” Oh, a lot of sympathy for you there. A lot of sympathy like that. You even get sympathy when you go on a self-inflicted  holiday. When you get an injury

Hannah: That’s exactly what I’m thinking. Why would you go skiing? I mean, but you go skiing and you break your leg. It’s like, no, you chose to go skiing and broke your leg 

Stuart: doing something which is inherently a leg breaking type deal. You know, everybody went and damaged themselves on a slippy surface. You put slides on your feet and hope that that would end well.

Hannah: Hope you don’t die. Okay, good luck with that.

Stuart: Exactly. But you even get sympathy then. But burn yourself out and have a complete and utter shutdown of your nervous system to the point where thinking is a task that you just sometimes can’t face and people are like “why don’t you just pick yourself up”. I think it’s got better but I think this is because people are more aware. In fact more people are being diagnosed with mental health issues which means that more people are aware of it.  Because they’ve experienced it either firsthand or in their family and they realize that it’s not just a case of “in my day it was just pull yourself together, stiff up a lip, get on with it”. And to a certain extent, and this is going to be an unpopular thing, nobody can do it for you. 

So you kind of have to buck up and face the facts. But with a structured approach, I think you can and with a plan in place, you can heal yourself with very very simple and easy to apply principles, which I’m hoping we’re going to cover in the rest of the episode. But it doesn’t return evenly either. So you might just suddenly wake up and think, do you know what? I feel alright today. I go to the shops and I’ve had this, you know, I can face getting dressed, walking out and I’ve got to talk to the person behind the counter, but I’m sure I can say, “oh, it’s bad weather” or whatever and get through it. Just, you know, even if it’s just a mumbled thank you, it’ll be fine. But what if you bump into someone? 

Hannah: Oh god, the random encounter when you’re not an accidental friend. Oh yeah. The person who wants to stop you in the street for a chat will ask you just something totally bloody irrelevant.

Stuart: Yeah. But what we were saying last week, it’s like being in the overdraft. You get to that day when it’s returned and you may have just crawled out of the overdraft, but don’t think you’re healed because you got no savings and you need to get some savings in the bank so that you can resist those kind of uneven energy deliveries. Coz the next day you might just have wiped yourself again. I remember walking around the block. I had an operation on my knee whilst I was going through this burnout. It was just the worst. So I was kind of confined to my house which helped. But one day I was told that I had to go down the stairs and around the block once a day and I hadn’t been doing this. I just couldn’t face it. I couldn’t face the stairs let alone the block.  I was on crutches crutching my way around a block. And one day I just woke up and I felt like I could do it and I did it. And it probably wasn’t even half a mile, Hannah. It was an insignificant distance.

Hannah: Three days to recover from that.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. I believe it. I got back and in fact, I thought I was in trouble halfway round thinking I’m not sure how I’m going to get home because I’m as far back that way as it is to continue and now I’m kind of stuck. 

And I just, you know, took a moment and recovered. But the point to it is that don’t expect suddenly your energy levels to rise in an equal stepped fashion like you are charging a battery because that’s just not how it arrives at all. We’ll get into this, but it takes a long time to recover. And the longer you’ve been burning that candle at both ends and scraping back the wax and finding other places to set light to the wick or the fire. For how long you’ve been doing that, it’s going to take an amount of time to crawl your way out of that. And the healing uh it happens invisibly. You know, somebody could arrive the next day and they’re like, “What have you done?” I’ve done literally nothing. You look no different. Oh, I feel better. I feel a bit better. You know, don’t be around negative people at this point because you need understanding and space. Connect with other people though. Don’t withdraw. That was where my mistake was. I literally went into my cave for 12 days. Yeah. 12 days I’m not been back. I can tell you that much.

Hannah: I’m actually envious of that cave. I quite like the idea of it. But you’re right. Don’t Yeah. 

Stuart: I think wallowing can be all right. It can lead to the right place, but I found that it leads to a much darker place for me. And whilst I’ll acknowledge my own lack of energy or burnout or whatever and be realistic and pragmatic about it, I’m not beating myself up anymore. I’m just refusing to. I think everybody, not just folk like us, but everybody can feel that pressure to kind of bounce back. But actually for us, it can be so harmful, you know, because I know that people often around us have good intentions and they’re trying to jolly us along and um you know, trying to kind of get us back on track, and people that love us must be worried about us when we’re in this burnout, right? Because they’re kind of like, “Oh god, even though they will invariably have seen it before.” Um yeah, if they’ve been around for a while.

Hannah: Yeah, they’ve certainly seen it before in my world.

Stuart: Um but, you know, when you love somebody and you’re going to be worried and you’re going to try and kind of jolly them along. But actually I think having been there myself, it can feel really quite harmful and toxic even when the intentions are good. Um, and I think you know for me I’ve been there and I’ve felt those kinds of expectations from those pressures that we put on ourselves but also those societal ones. 

Those expectations if you’re employed you know oh god how how long is my employer going to put up with me recovering and um or having to justify it to people around you because it is an invisible thing that they can’t, you know, they have to rely on the evidence we’re giving. Actually I feel like I can’t function at the moment and they’re also judging it from their own perspective.  So what but you’ve only done this one project and that’s burnt you out.

Hannah: Yeah. They don’t get it. They don’t get it at all. And I’ll be honest and say that my daughter really really suffers from burnout, um, a lot. And I remember the first time she was kind of, “Mum, I can’t, I just can’t do stuff.” And I hadn’t experienced it much myself at that point. And I had no idea that any of us were autistic, bizarrely, coz the signs were glaringly obvious. Um and I remember kind of like, “Well, come on. Once you get going, you’ll have a bit more energy and, you know, have something to eat. 

And now I look back on the “once you get going” version of myself and think, oh, Hannah, piss off.” Um But I didn’t get it. I didn’t get it. And I was lucky at that point to not get it. But I do understand it now coz I’ve I’ve been there myself. 

Stuart: Um, and we have our own internalised productivity guilt, right? 

Hannah: A lot of us are very, you know, I told you in the last episode about how I get the rage if I have to have a bath because I see it as a waste of time. I do feel even when I know, and I’m really really self-aware now, when I need to just switch off, do something that doesn’t burn any brain cells, and stuff. But even then there is a tiny part of me like “and if you get better quickly you’ve got that blog you need to write” 

Stuart: You’ve got you know there’s always unfortunately that internal productivity guilt going on even if it’s not as loud as it used to be. But you know do not have an ableist attitude to our output. Because that’s just kind of ghosting ourselves about reality. 

Hannah: Um, and also the fear of being left behind. I mean, I get massive. Even now, not that long ago, I had a week where I’d got, you know, a cold and that added on, you know, to everything that was just messing with me that week. And I had to cancel a couple of networking events and stuff and I got so much FOMO and I kept, you know, fear of missing out for any of you that have lived under a rock for the last however many years people have been saying FOMO. But that was what I was telling myself, well, you know, that could have been the networking event where I was going to get a big break or I was going to meet somebody that was going to, you know, make the podcast famous or that’s the one you’ve missed.

But it’s bullshit, right? Because you know that fear of being left behind, but you know really somebody that day was going to, the king of podcasts was going to rock up and be like, “Oh, I came to see Hannah and Stu, but neither of them are here. So, that’s not going to happen. Now, guys, dreams crushed. Um, also, I feel the need to point out that rushing recovery, and I’m trying to listen to this advice as I say it because I really need to. If you try to rush recovery, it just prolongs the burnout. So, you’re not speeding things up, you’re actually slowing yourself down even more. 

Stuart: You cannot speedrun recovery. It will take the time that it takes. Um, stop being all gas and no brakes.

Hannah:  You’ve said this before, haven’t you? Just hammering it through um and then taking that time to restock the warehouse. You’ve talked about the warehouse and I love that analogy because actually yeah, if you try and rush that recovery, you’ll get a little bit back and then you’ll go back out there and burn yourself again and and you’re just playing a game of like one day on, one day off, just never really you’re just simmering that burnout, aren’t you, for a long time.

Stuart: It doesn’t get better the longer that you’re on the edge of it. No, you have to acknowledge it and step away from it and ensure and I’ve seen this happen so many times so many times with small business owners that something isn’t working for them but they try harder and harder to whatever the market is saying to them to ignore that feedback and push and push and push. And they fall over and they disappear from the scene for a while and then they come back with a whole new thing and it’s like I recognise that cycle. I know where you’ve been. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn’t always work.

But you see, I think one of the things that you’ve got to forgive yourself for is um is the grieving process because it is a grieving process. And the reason it is a grieving process is because it’s one of those situations where you have to understand that once you’ve gone through burnout, you’re never going to be the same again. I don’t want to draw the analogy to like menopause, but to a certain extent once you’ve gone through a burnout, you’ve lost cognitive power. My stamina to, well, let’s put it this way. Where I choose to spend my energy is not with idiots. So therefore, I give idiots no time whatsoever and I am quite brusque and I’ve learned from my uncle that idiots go away when you do that. Genuinely nice people will give you a buy because they will see beyond it.

But maybe that person needed to hear, maybe you were the messenger for that person to hear that they were an idiot and they go home and think about it and go, “Oh, oh no, I’m the idiot. I am the arsehole here.” And then that fear of I’ll never be the same. Well, yeah, you may not deal with it. You you just have to deal with the fact that your capacity may change over time, but that’s aging. Do you know what I mean? Like my ability to stay up all night and arrive semi- sober for a shift and which was a 12-hour physical shift that I fueled with Uh, a couple of Cokes, a cigarette, a um, large uh, English breakfast in a bun.

Hannah: Um, and there has to be a Mars bar chucked in there as well. 

Stuart: Probably a Mars bar at 10:00 in the morning and 4:00 in the afternoon and my lunch in between. And but the point is, you can you can do that. You can sustain that when you’re 25 for a much longer period of time than you can when you’re 45, especially if you’ve also gone through having a family and you’ve got the worry of running a business and keeping a income coming in, it’s always going to end badly if you don’t accept the reality of what burnout actually represents. It’s almost a change, and you’ve got to accept that when you come out the other side of it, there may be some long-term side effects or consequences.

Hannah: Yeah. And I I think, you know, I’m not trying to simplify burn out because it isn’t a simple thing, but there’s definitely an element of your body saying, “Okay, I’m going to have to slow you down here because you can’t be trusted to do it yourself.” I mean, you know, I won’t go off on a massive tangent, but with my physical health problems, a lot of that has been, you know, it’s a nervous system issue, one of the issues. And a lot of that is like, oh, your body just had to tell you because it didn’t, it was relying on you to rein yourself in, but you didn’t. So, The body’s like, “Okay, lads, turn off some of the systems because she’s an idiot. She’s not going to save herself here.”

Stuart: I need to say this to whoever needs to hear this. You’re an amazing human being and you’ve done some amazing things. Your worth is immeasurable in some dimensions and calculable in others. That’s just life. But never hang your selfworth on the hook of fiscal shame. Doesn’t matter what you’ve achieved outwardly. The fact that you have recognised that you need to take your foot off the gas and take a moment to heal the human inside. Give yourself a pat on the back for that. Give yourself all the cudos in the world because that is really hard. That acknowledging that you need self-help is incredibly incredibly enabling. So listen to that in a voice. And whilst you may be feeling flattened by life, if you give yourself space, you will come back and you’ll come back different, but in some ways better.

Hannah: Yeah, that public service announcement.

Stuart: I love it. From my burnout, I went all quiet. I was a little kind of staring into the sky like, oh, yeah, I like that a lot. I was going to touch on Alexithymia and Interoception, but I think we’ll save those for their own special little episodes.

Hannah: Yeah, that’s a good idea because they’re really good deep dive topics. Um, and sort of kind of moving on to the next point really. Recovery isn’t linear and that is not a setback. So, you know, remember that you’re going to have good days followed by bad days, but it doesn’t mean that you’re failing. They’re just part of how it works.

Stuart: Oh, it’s the catastrophisation of like, I was so good yesterday, now this is it. Oh, it’s bad. It’s terrible. Brain cancer. I’m dead.

Hannah: Exactly that. And, you know, we have to forgive ourselves for that fluctuating capacity during the healing process. Um and if we kind of relapse back into a bit more of a burnout or you know sometimes we feel like two steps forward no one step back then don’t erase the progress that you’ve made.

Stuart: Making progress is lumpy but you have to embrace the process rather than trying to fight it. Like I touched on earlier, if you get a moment of extra energy that you’re a bit excited about, don’t just go and do something stupid shit to just burn yourself back to where you were. Stop start energy needs to be realized as a normal pattern.

Yeah. I mean, we touched on it last week, explored it in many of the other episodes that we’ve done. The nature of the energy deficiency. And, you know, we are learning to read those signals instead of panicking about recognizing the signs. Understanding it gets better. I don’t mean better like a miracle but, you know, understanding that this isn’t the end. You don’t need to go into the “and then we all died mindset”. The most frightening thing is having something happen to yourself that you’re not in control of or aware of. 

 I was losing my mind when it was happening. Having lived through it, I wouldn’t recommend it. But accepting all the holes, the flaws, the unvarnished truth of myself that got me well because I was able to better acknowledge I’m good at this, I’m shit at that. And that self-knowledge, that’s what heals you because you cling to it. This is making me better and it doesn’t matter what’s happening today, tomorrow’s a different day and I will make it through because you know I’ve made it through before. So just hang in there.

Hannah: There’s always that sense of reassurance, isn’t there? When you do something and you come out of it and you survive it. I don’t mean that in a dark way, but then you’re like, “Oh, and next time, god forbid, it comes back around, you’re like, you know what? I’ve got through this before and it gives you that confidence. 

Stuart: And that’s gold isn’t it right there knowing I didn’t think I could do it. I didn’t think I’d survive it but I did. So bring it on. Bring it on because I’ve been there. I know the song. I know the words and I’ve got the dance moves down. Um and it’s less scary. And I’m not suggesting that you know you’re all going to embrace a second burnout like yay hooray back again sweet burnout you know. But knowing what to expect, Like you said, having no control is terrifying, but actually if you know the dance, okay, I’ve been here before. I know where this, you know, I know how to manage this and all of that stuff. Um yeah, and rebuilding the capacity without recreating the burnout is the ideal end goal here is that you recognize what the triggers are. You recognize the things in your life, the relationships, the commitment and just go back through your inventory of energy drains and unplugging. 

I said it before, you’re like a power bank with too many devices plugged into you. You just have to remove some of the bigger drains. And it’s a little bit again, the financial analogy is just when you’re attacking your debt, you pay off the highest interest debt first because that’s going to alleviate as much pressure and allow you to have bigger payments for the smaller debt. So, it doesn’t matter how small the debt is, get rid of it if it’s a higher paying interest rate than the larger debt. And it’s a little bit like that with your energy drains. Get rid of the highest that doesn’t mean divorcing your husband. Don’t just leave your family. And but if it means that you need to have a frank conversation with your partner or need to go and book into a hotel, for a week where I don’t have any distractions and I can just lie flat and order takeout and you can afford to do so then have that conversation because if that gets you back on your feet you need to do that or at least come to some arrangement with your other half where I just haven’t got the capacity for the cognitive load to think of all of the things in our life that I do and I need a holiday from it. And having your other half understand that, well I mean I hit the relationship jackpot because my wife understood it before I did. And that really is somebody who’s looking out for your best interests. She will stop me and make me eat. I know it sounds terrible, doesn’t it? And my wife stopped me and forced me to eat a tasty meal, a lovely, delicious meal.

Hannah: How dare you? How dare you? Shout out to Jemma, though. She is fabulous on that front.

Stuart: She absolutely is. Yeah. But you’ve got to redesign your life and work gently within your capacities. Um, you got to listen to your rhythms. You got to track them over a few months. Can you identify if there are any what we call lagging indicators that you need to listen to? So, an example of a lagging indicator profit in your business is a lagging indicator of how efficient your business is. So, uh if you are feeling tired now, what has been the leadup? What’s the pathway to that and what in that pathway can you eliminate in future? Unfortunately for me, that has meant I’ve had to put theater to one side. I just don’t have the emotional and mental and physical capacity to deal with it all because I’m an all or nothing, you know? I’m either the stage manager, technical director and driving the van and doing the set design, you know, otherwise I don’t feel like I’ve tried.

Hannah: You’re back to the one man band with all the symbols 

Stuart: And I’ve got my own bagpipes. So, you also have to let go of expectations you have of yourself,because we all have that and to a certain extent. And this is where our internal ableism leaps to the four as we compare ourselves to other people who have greater capacity, better opportunity, more uh money, you know, more of other things that you are lacking. And we beat ourselves up and then we say, “Oh, we’re not successful.” Listen, if you got up in the morning and you put on clothes, tick that box of success.

Hannah: Tick. Coz some days, oh boy, I don’t bother. If I got a spoon for it, it’s not getting a spoon. I’ve had a full on 90 days. And I’m proud of that. I am proud of that. I’m proud of it because there was a time when I wouldn’t be. Now I’m like, ” this is what Hannah needs today.” Uh, looking after myself.

Stuart: The post lady, post person knocked the door the other day and I answered it and I was in my um what I like to think of as my dressing gown, my robe.

Hannah: Is it your nightie?

Stuart: It’s kind of a very loud dressing gown. And the posty went “fantastic. I’m always delighted to see you”. And the thing is I had my fez on and my um my schlumpfy my schlumpy shoes. If you’re looking on YouTube, I’ve got them on now. They’re really comfy.

Hannah: Oh, they’re good.

Stuart: And uh and she said, “Magnificent. I always like seeing what you wear.” And I get that when I go over my outfits. They put a smile on my face. They put a smile on other people’s faces. And I don’t care if you think I’m a chump. You’re entitled to your opinion. Whatever.

Hannah: You’re wrong. 

Stuart: You’re wrong. But you’re entitled. You’re allowed to. So Yeah. So, what support do you think actually helps? So, not all support is helpful, is it? I mean, we both know that. Tell me what you’re feeling right now.

Hannah: Just talk about No, I literally want no noise. I mean, you know, once when I was in a bit of a burnout, my husband came into the bedroom coz obviously I was lying down. Came into our bedroom and said, “It’s very dark in here.” And flicked the light on and I just started crying and you could see him think like, “Oh, shit.” And just turned it back off again. And it was almost like you could imagine if you put it back on I’d cry and then you turn it off and I’d stop. And I got a bit like “why did you do that?” And he was like “well coz it was so dark in here love you need some light”. I don’t need some light. I’m an adult. I’m capable of turning the light on and off. That was a choice. Anyway, I won’t go down that rampage. But my point being the intentions are good there, right? You know my husband thought, “Oh, it’s horrible in a dark room. Poor Hannah hasn’t had the energy to turn the lights. 

Stuart: He made the classic mistake. He approached the cave with a stick and poked the bear in the cave. Turned the bloody torch on the bear first and then sorry.

Hannah: But when you’re you know, I can only speak from my own experience. But when you’re in that burnout, I just want to be believed. I don’t want to be fixed. I don’t want “have you tried this? Have you tried this?” That just makes me angry.

Stuart: Have you tried just pulling yourself together.

Hannah: Yeah. Have you tried getting a grip, changing out of your nightie?

Stuart: I’m going to explain this in very simple terms that anybody can understand. Okay. Never in the history of telling someone to calm down has anyone ever calmed the fuck down. Someone comes up to you and you’re angry and they just go, “Why don’t you just calm down?” They’re getting a twatting in the eyes. I’m really sorry that a backhanded reflex action to being told to calm the fuck down.

Hannah: Exactly that. It’s like that kind of practical support rather, you know, versus the motivational talk like you want help. You don’t want advice. 

Stuart: And maybe that help looks like somebody makes sure you’re gonna eat your lunch. 

Hannah: Just that looking out for you and my husband does the same if I’m having a physically bad day health-wise. He’ll know like “I don’t think Hannah’s eaten anything today”. So he’ll bring me up, and he’s beautiful like that, just get a sausage sandwich or whatever delicious. He’s a great cook. So a sausage sandwich is an act of love.

But he always knows and that is his language. His healing language. He’s learned not to say stuff like, “Do you want the light on?” He’s like, “Just feed her. She’s in a cave. Chuck her sausage roll in the cave.”

Stuart: Exactly that. If the bear is in the cave hibernating, throw in a sausage sandwich. But, you know, for people to understand what that help looks like or what help for us looks like, they need clear communication with them, right? Um, when they understand what’s going on, then they know what we require. Um, or they get more of an idea of it anyway. Um, and also for us to understand more about the kind of our variable, we’ve touched on this really, but our variable fluctuating output. You know, what we can do today may well change tomorrow. So, actually, although that’s bloody frustrating, we live with it every day, right?

Hannah: Yeah.

Hannah: And, you know, it shouldn’t be a surprise to us now that our energy levels and our productivity is not linear. You know, if you wake up, if I wake up any day and go like, “Oh, that’s a bit weird. Yesterday I had loads of energy, I haven’t today.” Hannah, for fuck sake, get with the program. 

Stuart: I’ve got a really energy intensive week, but I have booked a massage at the end of the week.

Hannah: Nice.

Stuart: Rewards the right word. Yeah. Turn my brain off and have somebody find all the pain points in my body and press them sequentially until I submit.

Hannah: Until you’re like, I’ll tell you anything.

Stuart: I’m relaxing. Just dig. Oh, that sounds like a beautiful idea. Shout out to Sam and her beautiful, beautiful family.

Hannah: She does sound, you’ve told me about her before and she sounds incredible. 

Stuart: And the last point really on this, you talked in our last episode about the red rope around your time.

Hannah: Yes. 

Stuart: And I think it’s a brilliant analogy because actually it doesn’t have to be red rope. It can be a blue rope. It could be a rainbow rope. It could be a sparkly rope wire. I tell you what, it can be a red electric fence.

Maybe. Maybe the rope’s red because it is barbed wire. And too many people have been trying to climb over it. It’s a bloody piece of road. Oh, that got dark, didn’t it? 

Hannah: But, you know, it’s the whole concept or the whole idea of protecting our recovery from those external demands and, you know, that red rope feels like boundaries to me really.

Stuart: Yep.

Hannah: You know, knowing that you and I’ve really struggled with this over the years since I got um physically not so well. Well, I had to learn that I had to say if people would say, “Oh, you know, I haven’t seen you for a while. Can I come over today?” I’ve learned that I had to say, “I’m really sorry. I need to just be in bed today.” And then they might say, “Well, I’ll come and sit on the edge of your bed.” No. I just need to not talk. I need to just stare at a screen for a day.

Stuart: I actually do not need to be having this conversation while I’m justifying my decision. This is what’s actually happening.

Hannah: Oh my gosh.

Stuart: You see, and that leaks out of me when I’m in burnout coz I have a very poor social filter to start with and it’s only got worse as I’ve burnt out and got older.

Hannah: Oh, exactly that. So, that red rope is utterly those boundaries are like absolutely vital.

Stuart: You have our permission to say no. Full stop. End of sentence. No justification.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Be polite. No thank you. Be polite and be diplomatic. But we can reschedule. 

Hannah: I love that. And if the person you’re pushing back on gets a bit mean, then tell him to talk to Stuart coz he’s bigger than me.

Stuart: Send him my way. I’ll give him an education.

Hannah: Oh, so that takes us to the last point really.

Stuart: Well, that’s kind of redefining the success after burnout because if you come back and the comeback is lumpy or the energy delivery is inconsistent and uh you’re trying to project that image of “I’m in business and I’m successful”. Um, how do you square that? You know, because if you can’t show up all the time. Um, then embrace that. 

You know, if you turn up infrequently but spectacularly, as I like to think of it, people will remember that more than if you’re droning on all day every day. Recently, a lot of the major SEO and social media marketers that I follow have changed their message from you’ve got to be everywhere all the time to show up spectacularly but infrequently and it’s like you’re just doing something I’ve been doing for years. We’re about to bounce back with one of our other projects coz other things in life I don’t need to make an excuse and tell people that I don’t know. I just decided that I didn’t have the energy for it and I’ve I timeshifted it into 2026. But the point to it is that success is things like having a stable mood, regulating yourself, putting systems in place, using alarms, lists, calendars. Yes, Stuart, I know. All I need to do is put everything in a list. Why didn’t I think of that? I’m not saying that this is a panacea for all those. I’m just suggesting that not everybody has the same coping mechanisms. And think of the thing that you could put in place, even if it’s post-it notes around your car interior. whatever works. Don’t justify, you don’t need to justify yourself to your inner ableist and ghost your own inabilities. Like they’re magically if I ignore them, they go away. No, no, no, they don’t. They don’t go away. They get worse. They come back with friends and they haunt you.

Hannah: Yeah. They come back with a gang.

Stuart: You’ve got to just sleep, eat, exercise, water, smile. You know, if you’re feeling stressed, put a smile on your face. Doesn’t matter how fake or or forced. Or pretend you’re eating a piece of chewing gum that’s just getting bigger and bigger and bigger and it’s taking more and more more and more of your and by the time that you you’ll be laughing and giggling and feeling a lot lighter uh despite yourself because you’ve mood shifted. I’ve got this saying, no emotion before motion. So I’m not allowed to decide how I feel until I’ve moved. So if an email comes in and I get instantly angry, it’s like why am I getting instantly angry? What kicked it off? I need to move. I need to process this. I process when I move and it helps me regulate. To have noticed that requires a degree of internal rigor that you can discipline yourself to use, but it’s kind of like it’s like a stem to the emotional response. I can’t explain it better than that. I haven’t got the language at the moment, but You can’t do all of that uh regulated stuff and expect yourself to excel at your work if you haven’t got that baseline in and you need to return to that baseline. It’s a little bit like in Bladerunner where he goes and calibrates himself. You need to go and recalibrate. 

You need to just, you know, figure out where your energy levels are and give your body a space to bounce back and you know celebrate your creativity. Go for a walk. A walk is wonderfully freeing. Leave your handset at home or put it in your pocket and don’t take it out and look at the screen. Look around, notice stuff. Look up. Look at the sky. Look at the birds. It’s fantastic out there. Or do something you’ve never tried before. You know, go and walk around the pond and feed the ducks if that’s your thing. Or just anything a little bit different or out of the ordinary to to give yourself a little dopamine boost uh in the midst of all this can really really help just cement that feeling of I’m yeah i I am successful and just listening to this podcast and being aware of this stuff in my book makes you successful. Um do a painting, bake a cake, do a do a little chore for a for a chores are much better when you’re doing from some doing them for somewhere someone else. 

You know if my daughter asked me to do some DIY after about the fourth time I leaped to it and uh it feels so good and I thought to myself why did I put it off? It felt so good because rather than going, I got to do some DIY, I’ve gone, I’ve really made my daughter’s life a lot easier with her drawer not wobbling. Um, so yeah, you need to recalibrate. You need to take time for yourself. That’s why you need to step away from whatever it is. And it is difficult. We’re not not ignoring the fact that all of this requires time off and usually time off from work. And you need to really understand your workmates and colleagues. But that’s part of owning your own disability. It is a different ability to other people and you need to communicate that in effective ways and be a professional wreck professionally. You go to your colleagues and say this is what’s happening. This is how I am dealing with it. This is why we say you should have a plan and you need to communicate that plan to others so they can help you enact it. Even to the point of saying Stuart, I think it might be time that you took a break because Gemma does it to me now. She’ll say, “Why don’t we have a little break and we’ll go away for a couple of days?” Nowhere exciting. We might just book a hotel room in another town, just go and eat strawberries and watch stupid films. The point is it’s a difference. It’s a change. You need it. You need it. You need to switch off. You need to let your brain center and re-energize. And that requires discipline. And that’s what I think about self-employment and that’s my TED talk on why self-employment is good. Thank you for the attic drop. But yes, uh the whole point of being self-directed and self-employed is that you can take time to do this and hopefully do it without any guilt. So, have you got any other takeaways for the odd squad?

Hannah: Takeaways, top tips. Um well, We’ve touched on it, but for me, rushing recovery just increases the chance of you getting worse and relapsing into feeling shit again. Um, so yeah, when you get that little glimmer of extra energy, do not put a saddle on it, jump on board, and go for a giant gallop around the countryside coz then you’ll be back, you know, within 15 minutes you’re back lying in your bed crying again. 

Stuart: So, um it’s a little bit like when you flush the loo and you have to flush it again and you’re thinking, “Oh, I’m sure there’s enough there now.” And you and it’s not enough and you’ve just wasted more time and you just have to get more in. It’s like that. That’s exactly what it’s like. Rushing the flush. Don’t rush the flush.

Hannah: Don’t rush. That’s our slogan and that can be our mission statement. Oh my god. Um and also, you know, you know, recovery takes longer than we’re told and that is completely normal. It takes longer than you think it’s going to take and that is fine. Um, I think that’s part of the ND condition. I don’t think we’ve got very much patience.

Stuart: No. And whoever designed our brains although they are utterly magnificent. You know who would give a perpetually impatient person the high chance of burnout coz I’m like, I’ve actually said in burnout moments, I’d be like “I haven’t got time for this. I haven’t got time to be ill. I haven’t got time to be mad”.

Literally said to Jemma as I’m lying in bed suffering from a cold or some other minor thing which has just knocked me over the edge of burnout. It’s like, I haven’t got I have not this is such a waste of time. I haven’t got time for it. She’s plying me with soup.

Hannah: It’s so true, isn’t it? And I think my last takeaway really from my point of view. A slower life can absolutely be a successful one. I mean, I personally have slowed down my life. There was a time where I wanted to earn the big bucks, be like the next I don’t know. I was going to say Jeff Basos. I don’t want to be him. Um, you know what I mean, though. Yeah, definitely not. Don’t know why that came to just somebody with lots of money.  Um, my life’s really nice now. And I’m not working, you know, seven 14-hour days a week and all that rubbish. I am just as successful. If you don’t get sucked into the hustle culture and believe the hype about that rubbish, then you just realize that actually getting a really good/work life balance not only is great for your mental health and minimizes the risk of burnout because we do have the the sorts of brains that uh, you know, have a propensity to do that. 

Um, you get we can get the essentials done. Have smart processes. You were touching on it, you know, with the lists and all that kind of stuff. Get a smart process. So process, Hannah, it’s not a hard word. Smart. See, look, look what happens when I talk too much. Since having my babies, my mouth stopped working. And most importantly, I think just being really open and honest with the people closest to us, the people that it will also impact to some degree because if they understand what’s going on, we reduce the shame that we may have. 

We don’t deserve to have shame. We shouldn’t have shame, but we invariably do. Um, you know, we can say to the people around us. There’s less chance of us being abusive to them if we explain to them, I’m in a cave right now. Just chuck a sausage roll in at some point and don’t talk to me and never turn the big light on.

Stuart: I’ve just going to get hints and tips, but Have you finished?

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. No, do it. Do it. 

Stuart: I’m just being a bit impatient just to get to 

Hannah: I can’t believe you’re impatient. 

Stuart: Yeah. Hints and tips. So, hints and tips. One of the tips is to have some safe words. Now, we’re all adults in this room. Okay. Right. This is content that is made for adults. Adults in certain scenarios have safe words. So, uh Gemini extended that into when I don’t have words or or when I’m overwhelmed, overloaded, over stimulated, unable And this can happen. I can become un uh inverbal.

Unverbal. Nonverbal. Not unverbal. Neither of us can talk anymore. When he’s unverbal, it’s really brutal. Nonverbal.

When I’m non-speaking non-verbally, um when I’m non-verbal, I’m unable to communicate the string of words. I need to communicate and it’s like it all backs up in my head and I can’t get it out. So, we’ve got a couple of safe words. I’m not going to mention them. They’re just funny funny little words. But the point to it is that when I am feeling like I can’t answer a question now, and if I do answer you, it’s likely to be in the wrong emotional key for the conversation. 

It’s like coming into the conversation way too high in a song, you know, or way too low if you’re if you’re feeling feisty. And just having that safe word to be able to say it, the other person goes and and it doesn’t trigger Jem’s PDF to go, “Well, he’s not talking to me, so what have I done wrong? What have I done wrong?” And it’s having that pre communication that allows the actual communication of like, look, I can’t communicate it all. What’s going on? It’s not you. I’ve got to just unreal, unspill, undo whatever is going on in my head. And I just haven’t got time to communicate all that to you with words. So, here take a ticket. Take a ticket. You’re on the list. Um, and I I would say that that has really helped in communication with my uh my wife, my my partner. Um, catastrophizing is a real issue. The idea that you’ve taken two steps forward and one step back and that means a 100 step backs, brain tumor, death. Uh, we all have a real tendency tendency to look at the big picture and sometimes that can include all of the catastrophes and I would urge you to just accept that tomorrow is different than today and that may be forward that may be back but just keep saying tomorrow’s different tomorrow’s outcomes will be different brain fog it happens accept it do something different you know play darts do a jigsaw go for a walk, you know, do something that doesn’t involve whatever it is the tasks that are driving you absolutely nuts. Um, you’ve got to protect your recovery like an injury. You know, you’re not going to get better quickly. And the quicker you try to speedrun that process, the worse the injury will uh take or the longer the injury will take. 

Um, you need real time to get well. And here’s the thing, you don’t come down the mountain quicker than you’ve gone up it. You don’t, even though you’ve got gravity on your side. You know it’s going to take the same amount of time depending on conditions to go up as to come down. You unless you fall down it.

Hannah: Oh gravity assist. He had a gravity assist though. He rolled down it. No time. He bounced off a few rocks. 

Stuart: He was a bit different when we got to him. Odd shape. Bit leaky. But um the point to it was that we home educated our children and one of the home education sort of philosophies is deschooling which is basically deprogramming your child from the cult of school and allow them to center and find who they actually are. Not this performative because it’s going to really be a culture shock. You know, so that socialisation is not in forced proximity in uniforms. We only do that to the military prisoners. Don’t get me started. Do not get me started. But the point is once they found themselves, Stuart, if you let them play PlayStation all day, they’ll play PlayStation all day. They will. They’ll get bored. Yeah. The point to it is that they need to heal from the trauma of school. And yes, I consider it in some cases an absolute trauma. Um a month for every year they spent at school. 

So if they’ve spent five years at school, yes, five months of just letting them do whatever they want to do, listen to your child. Your child will tell you who they are and they will present what they want and need and allow them to explore themselves. That might need some structure around it. Other children are very self-directed. The point to it is that’s what you’ve got to do with your burnout. If it takes 10 months to arrive. It’s not going to go in a week. You know, it’s probably going to take 10 months to go. And that might sound shocking, but you’re actually doing well if it’s only if it’s only been that. One of my burnouts took me five years to recover from because it was the best part of 15 years of trauma. Um, and that’s a a big lesson once you’ve been there. And that’s five lost years, you know, of just trying to grab at whatever you could to progress, not really understanding what’s going on. And the final thing I think is don’t compare yourself to how you were before. 

The process will change you. Life changes you. You know, it’s why you get tattoos, Stuart? You know, it’s like, yeah, coz I’m going to die in a pristine state. I’m not going to get any marks, no knocks, damages, and of course, my skin’s not going to sag, and I’m not going to look horrible for all the years of drinking. But you do you. I’m just using them at this point as amusing stories and distraction from the rest of me. But that’s the point, isn’t it? Life changes you. And how it changes you, maybe you don’t get to choose, but how you respond to that change, you do. And so you can choose to be positive about it and go, “Okay, I embrace it. I embrace this new me. My new self does all sorts of weird things and gets involved in stuff and doesn’t have a job description and refuses to comply with petty rules. Uh it’s just an amplification of the best bits of the most magnificent bits. So that’s this week’s episode. Have you got anything more to say, Hannah?

Hannah: No, I don’t. I think we’ve done a magnificent job.

Stuart: I think we’ve represented ourselves fantastic.

Hannah: Yeah, we’ve done a really good job. Really good job.

Stuart: Let us know what um was were the points that most resonated that maybe you disagreed with. Maybe you had a flash of energy or emotion or anger. I want to hear this. I don’t care if um it’s put in forceful terms, but anything that lets us have an insight into what’s going on out there or how it’s affected this topic has affected you. Um let us know.

Hannah: Just give us a sign. Throw out the bat sign. Flash a torch. Just something. We just want to hear some noise. Is anybody out there? 

Stuart: Even if it’s a growl from a cave, we are quite happy with that. So Hannah, that’s this week’s topic. What is next week’s topic?

Hannah: Ah, so the next is a good one? It is always a good one. One day I might just say next week is disappointing. Unfortunately, it’s a bit low grade. Not my finest moment. Um, so it’s a follow on obviously from our theme for March, but next week is the anti-hustle toolkit. So, it’s outlining doing less without falling apart.

Stuart: Oo. So, I’m all about the anti-hustle.

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: I I think we should put an anti-hustle manifesto in a PDF on the website for that episode.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: So, if you want to see that, definitely write in and let us know. Hosts@businessoddcast.com. Next week. As Hannah said, we’re going to be looking at stopping the hustle, stepping away from the hustle.

Hannah: Just say no to the hustle.

Stuart: Nobody needs to grind.

Hannah: No. Unless you’re a dancer and that’s what you like doing.

Stuart: Or a barista.

Hannah: Barista. I like how I go to pole dancing and you like go to coffee shops. Oh dear. That shows us what levels we’re both at, doesn’t it? 

Stuart: So for more insights, come back next week. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, um, if you’ve enjoyed it, please like, share, and subscribe. If you’ve not liked it, then please like, share, and subscribe.

Hannah: Just keep it to yourself. If you think we’re shit, just keep it in.

Stuart: Tell us. I’d love to hear from you.

Hannah: Don’t tell me I’ve got RSD.

Stuart: I just quite like an argument. And I’ll give you 15 bullet points as to why you’re wrong. Right. Next week, the antihustle toolkit. Until then, thank you very much for listening. This could be the odd reason we can’t stop laughing. This has been a business podcast. Thank you very much.

Hannah: Oh, thank you.

Eps 26 – Running on empty: How ND energy actually works

Most advice about energy assumes you wake up with the same capacity every day — the same motivation, resilience, and ability to push through. For neurodivergent people, that assumption just doesn’t hold.

In this episode, we unpack what it really means to be “running on empty” as an ND person — why energy is variable by design, not a personal failing, and how pushing through works… right up until it doesn’t. We talk fluctuating capacity, energy debt, adrenaline traps, burnout warning signs, and the hidden cognitive load that drains us long before anyone else can see it.

This is about reframing energy as something to manage, not override — pacing instead of consistency, rest as maintenance rather than reward, and learning to listen to the early signals before your system forces a shutdown.

If you’ve ever wondered why some days you can do everything and other days sending one email feels impossible, this episode will help you make sense of it — without shame.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to the Show
00:00:40 – Topic of the Week: Running on Empty How ND Energy Actually Works
00:01:30 – A brief overview of the challenges and the talking points today
00:04:00 – The energy budget – don’t get overdrawn
00:04:30 – ND Energy delivery is not consistent – feature not bug
00:05:55 – Why Gary Vaynerchuck and hustle culture has a lot to answer for!
00:10:50 – Energy based and time based planning are COMPLETELY different.
00:11:25 – HANNAH’S TANGENT 01 – Self shame & judgement about your mistakes…
00:12:23 – The benefits of “buffer-time” & energy debt
00:13:50 – Why is the best strategy for taxi drivers “make hay while the sun shines”?
00:16:22 – Forgive yourself and your physionomy, and why Hannah avoids baths
00:17:24 – Dozens of background processes, cognitive overload kils productivity
00:20:35 – Hannah’s cognative load meltdown confession
00:21:54 – Brownouts & “emotional shits” – overwhelming brain short-circuits
00:25:13 – FSB & SiGNAL Shout Out and real-world example of sensory overwhelm
00:26:40 – Processing delay, “details people”, forms & decision fatigue
00:28:39 – alt_audhd – Erin Fung – https://www.instagram.com/alt_audhd
00:29:29 – Stuart’s exam strategy & the pain of “Yes/No” options, details matter
00:33:52 – List of examples of warning signs of burnout and pushing too hard
00:34:24 – The adrenaline trap and the power of being “absent”
00:38:56 – Put a “red rope” around your time, the nightclub example…
00:43:17 – A list of early warning signs of burnout we ignore
00:43:39 – Sugar the bringer of dopamine…
00:44:04 – Insomnia (GRRRRR)
00:44:28 – The task spiral of despair
00:44:56 – Never catching up, the endless to do list of shame
00:45:15 – Being unable to say no
00:45:33 – Constantly being sorry
00:46:07 – The anxiety hamster
00:47:10 – Forgetfulness
00:47:27 – Drifting off, mid-convo, more than usual
00:48:04 – Trying to focus is draining
00:48:24 – Flinching stress tics
00:49:21 – Being ANGRY at YOURSELF!
00:50:27 – Emotional cobbles
00:51:00 – Irrational panicking without reason
00:51:32 – Jumping or getting irrational angry at small noises
00:52:23 – Emotional dysregulation
00:54:22 – Guilt loops
00:56:04 – HANNAH’S TANGENT 02 – Frenemys
00:57:00 – Rest is not reward, it’s preparation for the work to come
00:57:38 – Energy debt, managing your energy is the key to sustainable life
00:59:35 – Burnout isn’t sudden, it’s a cumulative result of not resting
01:01:00 – Signs that lead to burnout and singing the catastrophe song
01:02:10 – Withdrawal, brain fog, shutdown, and the “bear in the cave” warning
01:05:22 – Supportive parents & partners don’t judge you for having a bad day
01:00:00 – Parenting ND children challenges and school trauma
01:08:39 – Redfining the “balance”, & pacing in your life, value your inner voice
01:11:15 – Knowing your limitations and restrictions, realise you’re not “Superman”
01:13:20 – Give yourself permission to adjust without being mean to yourself
01:15:05 – Takeaways, learnings and final thoughts
01:15:50 – Energy is variable by design
01:16:09 – Energy vs time: ND candles are not designed to burnt at both ends
01:17:23 – “Pushing through” is not a lifestyle choice for NDs
01:18:00 – Rest ir maintenance and preparation not a reward after the effort
01:18:29 – Be aware of early signs of burnout – share with your loved ones
01:18:56 – Cancel, postpone and push meetings if your energy is low
01:20:11 – Some ideas, tips and guidance
01:20:31 – If the same tasks seem harder then look for your energy leaks
01:20:49 – Acknowledge real-world conditions change, adapt and adjust
01:21:15 – Rest BEFORE the work, time building your reserves is time well-spent
01:22:27 – DO NOT FEEL GUILTY FOR RESTING/PREPARING FOR WORK/LIFE
01:23:22 – Brain Fog? Irritable? Watch out for the energy spiral
01:24:42 – Low energy? Triage and prioritise the IMPORTANT stuff first
01:25:25 – Energy deficits occur – acknowledge them & recover or burnout
01:28:21 – Listen to yourself, listen to your body, listen to your loved ones
01:29:20 – Final comments and goodbye
01:31:25 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
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Stuart: Hello and welcome to another Business Oddcast. I’m your host Stuart Morrison and this is my equally fabulous co-host Hannah Logan.

Hannah: Hi. Hello.

Stuart: Hello. So, it’s uh a whole new month. It’s March and we’ve got a whole new topic. So, Hannah Logan, what are you doing in March?

Hannah: Well, when I’m not stuffing my face with chocolate, which to be fair, I do all year round, but  in March, you know, Easter time. It’s forgiven. So much chocolate.

Stuart: Jesus says you’re allowed to.

Hannah: Yeah. Um and the Easter Bunny and all of that stuff.

Stuart: Fantastic. Well, it’s March. It’s a new week. What is the topic of the week?

Hannah: Topic of the week. So, Oh, no. No. I’m not going to say it’s a good one. I always bloody say that.

Stuart: It’s a rubbish one this week. It’s terrible. Bottom of the barrel.

Hannah: This is really We just got desperate. We didn’t even care. We just made one up. Um

Stuart: And they say that and they say that the neurodiverse can’t do sarcasm.

Hannah: You know, I can. I’m the most sarcastic person I know.

Stuart: I was going to say you’re just not dry enough if you don’t get ND sarcasm.

Hannah: Ah, superb. Right. So, this week  the topic is “running on empty. How ND works”. So, um yeah, we’re kind of having a deep dive into the neurodiverse energy bucket or searching around in that bucket for it. Um plow plowing through the trauma. There’s going to be some crying, Stuart, this episode.

Stuart: I I think of it as like panning for gold except for instead of water, you’re sifting through the trauma, looking for the nugget that

Hannah: looking for a spoon.

Stuart: Yes, you’re sifting spoons,

Hannah: crying, eating chocolate, and sifting spoons. Second can of Diet Coke. Come on. Where are you? Brain, stop for Christ’s sake. I’ve got a Zoom call in two minutes.

Stuart: You Um well, yes, that sounds like a great topic. Do you want to give us an overview before we dive into the trauma?

Hannah: Yep. Yep. So overview it is kind of Well, we’ve said this before, haven’t we? But I think most advice about energy assumes, excuse me, most advice about energy assumes that you wake up every day with the same energy or same capacity, same motivation and resilience. Um and that’s not us, is it Stuart?

Stuart: Basically, Um, no.

Hannah: I mean, it’s like, you know, some days I can do a week’s worth of work and general braining stuff. Um, I might have got to the end of the of the day and think, “Oh god, I haven’t eaten, gone for a wee, done anything other than staring at my screen and then I feel like I need to get like, you know, lie in a dark room for a few weeks.” Um, and then other days I send an email and cry, have another cream egg. So, um, yeah, same person. person, same life, capacity, completely different. So this episode really is about reframing energy, not as a kind of personal failing. We’re not crap because we don’t have consistent energy, and it’s not a productivity issue. But it’s more a kind of fluctuating system or it’s completely a fluctuating system for us.

Stuart: It’s a little bit like solar power. Sometimes the sun’s out, sometimes it’s away, sometimes your battery’s charged up, sometimes it isn’t.

Hannah: 100% that. Yes. I like that. You’ve got the best analogies. Um so yeah, we’re going to have a look about, you know, we’re going to have a deep dive into understanding more about energy and what it’s trying to tell us. And how we can manage that better and all of that.

Stuart: Oh, fantastic. Yes. That is definitely a topic which I’m very familiar with.

Well, we’ll get into the details, but the way I actually think about it is a little bit like an energy budget and if you spend too long in the overdrawn part of your energy budget, you’re going to get compound negative interest and it’s just going to be a doom spiral. And I’ve been there. I’ve done that. So anyway, we’ll get into it and we’ll look at the topics surrounding this month’s main topic and this particular topic this week.

Hannah: So like the first point I’d like to raise, your honor, Oh my god, it felt like I was in court. I’ve never been in court. I’ve managed to dodge that, you know.

Stuart: Oh, it’s fun. It really is. I’ll leave that there. I’ll tease that for another time.

Hannah: That’s such a teaser. So, you know, ND Energy was never meant to be consistent. So, it’s not that we had consistent energy and we’re just a bit shit, because it isn’t consistent anymore. It was never meant to be. You know, our energy fluctuates. Because our brain processes the world differently. So inconsistency, as we’ve said, is not failure. It’s a feature of how we operate.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely 100%. It’s not like just a linear delivery. Imagine you’ve got parcels on a shelf like on a moving conveyor belt and the parcels are spaced equally and each one of those parcels represents a quantity of work you can do. Mine’s more like “unexpected item in the baggage area”. Could you just go and get the supervisor?

We got rejected and then the line backs up. You know, you’ve seen those those videos where it all sort of piles off the end and the guy, you know, standing there just a big pile of things just constantly.

Hannah: energy.

Stuart: Yeah. Just piling up. So yeah. So, for consistent delivery over the years I have learned that if I try to do that, it is the biggest thing for me, and I don’t know why it took me so long to vocalise my thinking around this. But I think actually Gary Vaynerchuk has got a lot to answer for.

Hannah: Oh who is this Gary?

Stuart: anybody who’s been into uh business growth. He  was an Alex Horoszi or rather Alex Horoszi is a Gary Vaynerchuk lookalike. I know that’s horribly dismissive of both of their skill sets and Gary’s worked at it. Don’t you know he practices what he preaches. I get it. But this is the problem I have with the entire self-help industry. Not just Gary or whatever. It’s that you have to hustle. You have to apply yourself. You have to keep going. You have to do 18 hour days. You have to grind.

And I have tried it and it didn’t end well. It didn’t end well mentally or physically and that kind of breaks you spiritually. What about yourself? You know, how’s your approach to your working life?

Hannah: Well, I tried exactly the same thing and um yeah, it broke me spiritually.

Stuart: It does.

Hannah: Just physically, mentally, and I think I used to get a strange pleasure from the idea that I was constantly at it, you know, like constantly hustling. And I mean, I was. I said this to you earlier today. I worked in a lot of sales roles before I moved more into the kind of stuff that I’m doing now. And I loved it. I was good at it. But there was that kind of KPIs and hitting your targets and although there’s a lot of dopamine in there. There’s also a lot of pressure to just keep going and long days and ignore the pain and actually I got to a point in life where, especially when my kids became part of my life,  I got to a point where I didn’t have all of my energy to put into that. Because real life also needs energy. And you know everything in our life needs energy. It needs different bits of energy. So, yeah, trying to hustle something when you are inconsistent with your energy is, well I don’t think it’s a good thing.  I hate the hustle culture.

Stuart: I’ve got one example which doesn’t matter how much you want to say “no, energy is energy blah blah blah blah”.  If that’s the case, if we all use our energy exactly the same, when you look at sports you have different people doing different sports who excel. Their body shapes, and their physiology, and their musculature, and their flexibility is determined by the practice of their sport. And I’m sorry, but somebody who is a great wrestler, like powerful, a great wrestler, is going to make a lousy sprinter.

Might do a fair fist of it, but they’re not going to be Usain Bolt, you know? They’re not going to be Elliot. And I’d like to see Elliot Kibigi, the marathon runner. absolutely extraordinary marathon world record holder go head-to-head with Usain Bolt in the 100 meters.

Hannah: They are going to phone in now, aren’t they?

Stuart: then I’d like to see Elliot Kibigi race at the same pace over a marathon. But that just goes to show you that different people have different abilities and different not just physical abilities, but their ability to sustain over a long period, or a short period.

So why would we approach it that all brains therefore are exactly the same and require all of the same inputs to give all of the same outputs. It baffles me. It really it genuinely it’s like why start from that position when the evidence is in front of you. Just go and stand outside your front door and look at the human race in all its unwashed glory. There’s all sorts of shapes and sizes. and just you look at it and you think to yourself, why would you think all the insides would be uniform and the abilities contained within each one of these various different specimens? It baffles me.

Hannah: It is. Yeah, it’s crazy. It’s absolutely crazy.

Stuart: So, that sort of brings me into the second point, which is energy is not the same as time. Now, that might sound like well Duh. But the point to it is that energy based planning and time based planning are entirely different approaches because a time based planning ignores the fact that your energy might show up lumpy. You might turn up on a day where you know you have to be your best self and you’ve got no plan B and you’re just not there for it. And that’s what I mean is it breaks you spiritually because you’re just constantly showing up disappointing yourself, let alone everybody else. Coz I’m sure you’re like me. If you disappoint yourself, there isn’t anything worse than that.

Hannah: No, I can’t. Quick tangent?

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Hannah: If I’ve messed up on something and someone is being beautiful and saying, “Please, Hannah, you mustn’t worry about this. It’s not a big deal.” Blah blah blah. That’s not okay for me because actually it’s my own judgment that I need to deal with and that’s incredibly difficult. So yeah, that’s the real problem. For me, like you said, it’s not about other people, you know,

Stuart: And it doesn’t matter how much shame coz that’s the usual pressure point, the shame of like, oh, why didn’t you plan your time better? And it’s like, no, the correct question here is, why didn’t I plan my energy better? And you’ve got a point. I should have put this deadline off for a week. To give myself the necessary wiggle room to get that done or have provision in place to have someone else do it for me.

Hannah: You’ve taught me, Stuart, that and it’s a massive game changer. You’ve taught me the buffer time and I just used to cram everything in to my diary like okay I’ve got a networking thing in the morning that’s fine I can do another one in the evening the same day and just back to back just feeling like you were just banging your head on a wall and and don’t get me wrong all those events have been fabulous but I was not allowing any um recouping time or or even you know now I I’m I mean I’m I’m a work in progress for sure but now if If I’ve got a day of a lot of peopleing, then the next day I’m just working from home. It’s going to be quiet. I’m going to work through some projects that I find easy. It’s that buffering, isn’t it? And you taught me that. Before that, I was just cramming. Try not to die. Try not to cry. I always cry. Holding on for dear life. Yeah.

Stuart: Well, you see that’s why you end up with energy debt. Because you’re constantly trying to apply the same load to a lumpy cash flow.  It comes and it goes. And some days you come in with your best will in the world and you sit for nine hours and you smash it out. You absolutely go, I am on fire.

And then other days you do four hours and you think to yourself, “my brain is not into this”. So there was a study done. I think it was New York taxi drivers. It might have been a London taxi driver. It’s immaterial. But they did this study and what they looked at was how taxi drivers could be more efficient with their earnings. And so they looked at various different taxi drivers and they gave them different sorts of models, rules to run by. And what they found was this. If you’re having a bad day and there doesn’t seem to be many fares about, quit. Stop at that moment because you will be burning fuel and time which is inefficient and you won’t be maximizing your time to make the most money with it.

So, go and do something else. On a day where it just seems like everywhere you turn there’s a customer that you can stop. Just keep going. You know, spend longer on that day because it is a more fruitful spend of your time. And what they found was over time if you took the approach of what you might think of as the hot hand approach, you know, oh, I’m so good at the moment, so good today. Yeah, I’m feugo,  I can’t do no wrong. Um, stick at it. Stick at it. Maybe do an extra two or three hours, but on the days that you’re not very good, quit whilst you’re ahead.

Hannah: That is literally what I do, Stuart. Like on a day where I was on fire yesterday doing work on a website, I just cracked on. I was like, “Okay, this girl’s unstoppable. I’m on this magnificent roller coaster.” And actually, I feel okay today. Coz it was the kind of work that was so easy for my brain that it didn’t feel like it was sucking me dry, like you know, leaving me like a little husk of my former self. But then other days I’m like the cab drivers. I’m like, nope. I’ve tried, you know, I’ve started on something, it’s not sticking. Try something else. Okay, today’s not happening. Some Netflix, come back tomorrow.

Stuart: It’s a perfectly valid response as long as you say to yourself and you give your permission to yourself, to not sit on the sofa with what I call all brakes and no gas. In other words, you’re pressing so hard on the brake and not doing anything that you’re just like so tense because you haven’t planned for this downtime and you’re just in your head going “ I’m wasting my time”. You have to really forgive yourself for your physiology.

Hannah: Yeah, I’m getting there. But yeah, there was a time where I couldn’t have a bath. That’s not, before you back off. Stu…..I’m very capable of having a shower. I am clean. Everybody listening and watching, don’t worry. Um

Stuart: I can confirm

Hannah: I won’t have a bath because I see them even now, my reformed self, I see them as a waste of my time. Because they’re so static. Even then I’ll try and read a book in the bath, but that pisses me off because I think I’m going to drop it in there. So, you know, the amount of times over the years my husband’s like “have a bath Hannah”. You know, my muscles are sore and I get in within a minute I’m like”no, I’m out”,  and it makes me angry. I get out of the bath and I’ve got the rage. Like what a waste of my time just lying in my own water. So yeah, sorry to any plumbers out there and bath fitters. I’m really sorry. I know that baths are great for some people.

Stuart: The way I sort of think about it is this, again, the way I model the world is so weird. Um, anybody who knows anything about computers knows that once you charge your computer up with doing lots and lots of processes, it slows down. Doesn’t matter how speedy your computer is. If you start doing lots and lots of background things like doing a search and doing an indexing and doing a backup and uploading something and doing some video editing, that cursor, it starts to feel like it’s rowing through syrup, you know?

And for me it’s like that. So I think of it as, you know, my operating system. If my background processes have a lot going on, and at the moment I have got quite a lot of projects going on, I know that I have to be very intentional with my use of working energy so that I can get through this quite hectic period. And get to the other side of it with myself intact. So, if you got a lot of background processes going on, say you’ve got a tax return to do. Done. Mine.

Hannah : Yes. Win.

Stuart: Yeah, thanks. Or maybe a client brief that’s ticking along in your subconscious. And then you add to that some cognitive load from your family. And it’s this cumulative effect of the cognitive load going up. which determines for me whether or not I’m able to be present for the work that I’m doing because I can’t then sit down, I got three or four things going around in my head, and then go “oh why do I start a whole new marketing campaign”. That’s just one too many tabs open, but it’s monitoring that and knowing that hang on a minute you’ve just put your hand up to do this volunteer to do that, to take on this role, or to do that job, or accept this piece of work. When exactly does your energy level top back up so that you’ll be able to do it?

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: So, having hit the wall a lot, you have to recognise that this isn’t bad luck.

Hannah: No,

Stuart: This isn’t bad planning. This is your brain going “this way of doing these things just simply doesn’t work”. Please change. And be kind to yourself about it. Like I said, you can’t help your physiology. It’s baked in, you know. So, I like the way I’m baked. I like my ingredients. Chucked in there and a few like ingredients you wouldn’t imagine adding in and yet they make something magnificent. Have you ever had Coca-Cola chicken?

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: It’s like that. It’s like you don’t expect it to be as good as it is, but awesome. But it does. That’s how I like to think of my working life. I shouldn’t work, but I do.

Hannah: Stu is like Coca-Cola chicken. He’s better than Coca-Cola chicken. Do you know what? So, I’m going to confess here.

Stuart: Go on.

Hannah: They’re not as frequent now, but there was a time not that long ago where um I would have a monthly at least a monthly meltdown. My family now understands that I would properly have a kind of “the end is nigh. I can’t do this. I need to go and you know like find an island somewhere and nobody will talk to me ever again”. And there’s lots of tears and woe is me and hand ringing. And my kids and my husband have now learned just to stand back. They don’t even stand back and watch anymore coz they know that I come to the end of it in about an hour and then I’m back in the room, normal. It’s just really bizarre. But I need that. And and like you said, I think there’s so much background noise, cognitive load that at some point my brain short circuits and turns on all the tears and all the stress and all the “it’s never going to work, and how am I going to cope” and it is like a kind of volcano of chaos. In fact I’m not okay in an hour. I won’t lie about that. You know a good couple of hours of just chilling out on my own afterwards, and then I’m back in the room. But it’s like a short circuit where it’s flicked the switch, all the lights have gone off, all the chaos has turned on and yeah..

Stuart: I call it a brownout

Hannah: a what

Stuart: Well,  so there’s a thing called a blackout where the lights go out. Where a brown out is where they flicker and like you might get partial power and

Hannah: Oh,

Stuart: and there could be chaos.

Hannah: Lots of chaos.

Stuart: So much chaos.

Hannah: Oh wow.

Stuart: Things don’t operate correctly.

Hannah: Everything’s a bit louder.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Hannah: Oh my gosh.

Stuart: And it will stay a brown out until you have an emotional shit.

Hannah: I love that. Now I think of it, it’s like, “Oh, I got that out. That’s good. Don’t beat myself up.” You know,

Stuart: That’s what it is. It literally is emotional shit.

Hannah: It is. If anybody’s just come on and is listening, they’re like, they’re like, “What? Hannah and Stuart are mental. They’re talking about poo again.

Stuart: Sorry everybody, but it is. It’s so accurate. So accurate. Oh my gosh. Go and lie down for a couple of hours. Come back back in the room.” Sorry, everyone. You had to witness that. A grown man like stamping his feet and gnashing his teeth.

Hannah: Wailing. Yeah.

Stuart: Dad. Dad’s fine now.

Hannah: Yeah. Dad’s not so crazy anymore.

Stuart: No. No, he still is.

Hannah: Oh, yeah. Dad’s all the crazy, but he’s not showing it. So,

Stuart: He’s got the lid on the tin of snakes. Sometimes you have to take the lid off, then all the snakes come out. You stuff them back in and put the lid back on. Carry on.

Hannah: The weirdest thing is like, oh my gosh, so sometimes I would just appear in the doorway of the living room.

Have my kind of, you know, it would just be aimed at  anybody. If the cat was watching, I’m like, “You furry bastard. And then my husband would be like, “Oh god.” And I’d be like, “And you never do this and you never do.” And then my daughter, who’s the most incredible human,I’d be like, “And what about what you never do?” And she would just look bmeused. And my son, he’s luckily most likely hiding in his room at that point. But then I’d go back to the kitchen, chill out for a bit, and then just reappear like, “Hello everybody. Sorry about that. Sorry about the crazy and the snakes coming out.” Ah, so now we’ve convinced everybody that we’re mentally deranged.

Um, it’s interesting to look at the kind of hidden energy drains that a lot of neurotypical people would have no clue about because most people don’t see them, right? So for us guys, we spend energy on stuff that others don’t have to think about.

Stuart: And a lot of the time, just to step in, a lot of the time we’re doing this and trying to hide it from everybody. So, this is going on whilst we’re in Tesco’s, whilst we’re driving along the road, whilst we’re having a rational conversation with another human. But instead of being able to let it out, you have to keep a socially acceptable mask on top of it coz everybody else will think you’re a bit weird.

Hannah: They do already, Stu. News flash. I think everyone’s decided that on around episode three! But that’s what they love about us, right? That is what you guys love about us.

Stuart: Thanks for watching, guys, listening, tuning in.

Hannah: I was at a fantastic um networking thing on Friday, as were you, from the FSB and Signal Biz Hub. Shout out to those guys. And I was in a group of maybe three other women and I was talking to one of them. Or one of them was talking to all of us. And my brain wasn’t just like, “This lady’s talking. Let’s listen.” I was like, “I like her hair. I wonder where she got her glasses from.” Then there’s somebody talking next to me and I’m like, “Oh, what are they talking about?” And then there’s somebody at the front saying, “In a minute, we’re all going to sit down.” And I’m like, “Oh, where will I sit? Do I have my bag with me?” My brain has got 20 tabs open. When I’m just literally all I’m being asked to do is listen to the lady that’s talking, but my brain’s got all those tabs open and that is draining energy that nobody would imagine. Well, you would imagine that people listening get it, but Yeah.

Stuart: Yeah. No, it’s the lights. It’s the lights in the empty rooms. Like, you’re just sat there and you’d think, “Oh, you’re just looking at that.” And you’re like, “There’s somebody coming in through the door. What’s the person doing outside the window? Where’s that tractor going? Why is there a deer over there? What’s that on the wall? Let me read that.” And then you realise 5 seconds later that you have not paid attention and everybody’s looking at you. because somebody’s asked you a question and you’re staring off into space like some kind of space cadet. There’s my life right there.

Hannah: So true, isn’t it? Somebody the other day asked me the most basic of questions. I think they were like, “Can you put that on the website?” And my brain was like, and I had to filter this, right? Because otherwise they’re going to think, “Oh, bloody hell, Hannah’s rubbish.” I was like, in my brain, I was like, “Which website?” You know, I personally have control of about six. So, which website, when do you want it on? Do you want it on exactly as it is or does it need to be changed to go on? So many questions and that is what my brain is doing. I’ve got 10 things I need to ask you about what they’ve deemed as a really simple piece of information, but to me, there’s no brief there.

Stuart: There’s no brief. You know, when people say “I’m a details person”, I want them to form a queue with all the other people who are a details person and I’ll be the judge of it. Show me an example of your work and give me three examples of why this represents you being a details person. Put it in a spreadsheet and score it 1 to 10 so I can make a statistical comparison.

Hannah: Also, what about decisions? I was talking to my son about this earlier. Decisions for a lot of us are almost impossible. And the more that you push me to make one, the more that my PDA is like “nope”. So making decisions is a massive drain of my energy. It’s not just yes or no or maybe it’s like but I don’t quite understand the parameters of that so I need more. Oh, it’s exhausting.

Stuart: Oh, any form that has a yes or no answer I will get stuck on.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And in actual fact what I would like is a committee of neurodivergent individuals to sit down and redesign all of the questions on all of the websites where they’re deciding whether or not you are neurodiverse or not because quite frankly they’re appalling. Um there’s a lovely lady I follow on Instagram and she was talking about this the other day. I’ve forgotten  who she is. Um I can’t remember. I’ll put a link below to her. Hello to the lovely lady. She’s always on it doing AUDHD stuff and she shows her bits, and does all the stuff. uh and has made some really interesting comments recently, especially about going through the process of an ADHD assessment. And the forms that she has to fill out and the multiple parts of it.

Just make it simpler or give  the top down version. I want you to tell me what each section is going to achieve, what your overall goal is. I hate second guessing it. And in actual fact, I’m going to lift the lid on something, right? I have passed exams without any, and I mean any, revision. Based on the fact that I can pattern match the multiple guess questions with the most likely answer.

Hannah: Nice.

Stuart: There will definitely be an outlier. There’ll be uh a distracting one which will be, oh it’s very similar but you can logic it. It usually trips you up. Then you’re usually left between two and you have a 50-50 chance at that point. And I have passed a few exams like that. Sorry examiners. Sorry teachers.

Hannah: They’re going to come around and take your GCSE certificates back.

Stuart: I have to confess I’m too old for GCSEs. They might come around and take my CSEs.

Hannah: Oh yeah. Or your O levels. Were you O levels?

Stuart: I was O levels. Yeah.

Hannah: They’re going to take them back now that you’ve announced this live.

Stuart: Yeah, that’s it. I’ll be cancelled. The CSE will reconvene.

Hannah: Set fire to your CV.

Stuart: My A levels,  uh, I got a  B in geography.

Hannah: Yeah, that’s gone. That’s gone, mate. Now you’ve got an E.

Stuart: Sorry, I cheated.

Hannah: No, you didn’t cheat, though. You just applied some really awesome logic to it, which is a better skill really than remembering about freaking precipitation or whatever rubbish we were taught in geography. Rain clouds. Sorry.

Stuart: Sorry. I think for me it’s too many options for me. You give me too many options. And my brain’s like, I’ve got to compare A to B, A to C, A to D, A to E, A to F, B to C, B to D, B to And you just end up in this recursive kind of like, but what if, but what if, but what if?

Hannah: I remember one of the questions on one of the many different ND forms I’ve had to fill out over the years. And it said, did you play alone as a child? And I thought, sometimes. But I also didn’t and what even is that?  It’s  not a question that you can say yes or no because they want me to say “yes I was a loner.  I was like a massive autist”.  Well I was sometimes, and clearly I am a massive autist, but also I wasn’t. So what a ridiculous question. That question alone took me like 20 minutes and I wanted to make, I did make, notes.  I think I filled out “yes sometimes” and then put loads of brackets.

Stuart: Oh yes I  made a list of all my answers and my reasoning in a spreadsheet.

Hannah: They were just like, “Yeah, we’ve got one, Dave.”

Stuart: But you see, they could shortcut and save the NHS so much time. All they’ve got to do is add one more option to every single question, which is ‘sometimes –  give an example’.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: And I would argue that 99% of the people who are neurodiverse would tick sometimes and then give you chapter and verse as to why the concept for the actual question was wrong, let alone answering. the question, but if you insist, here’s some answers.

Hannah: And the thing is, yeah, I guess, you know, there’s no denying that I was the kid at school that was like, you know, you’re getting to one minute before break time and the teacher says, “Does anybody else have any questions?”

And I’m like (hand up) , and everyone’s like, “Oh, bloody hell. We going to be here for an hour?” And I’d be like, “You know, you outlined the homework for next week, Mrs. Um, but you didn’t actually say X, Y, and Z.” And you can see everyone just like, “I’m going to kill her at break time”. But actually, the level of detail that I work to in my brain, and when I’m doing work. is awesome. And yeah, it is, but it hurts me more than it hurts you if you have to listen to me asking a question at the end of a lesson because I’m having to process all that. All you’ve got to do is open your ears for a little bit. But yeah, I’m never making any apologies for the level of detail that I give because it’s immense.

Stuart: No, I had this conversation with my daughter her on reflection after one of our previous episodes about overthinking versus underthinking. And she was of the opinion that most of her colleagues underthink.

Hannah: Yes, she is a wise young lady.

Stuart: Yeah, absolutely. But then I mean she’s in my sphere of influence. Um I think I want to give some examples of why pushing through uh works until it doesn’t. And here are some examples I think of, um, the warning signs that you’re heading towards some kind of burnout, brown out, overwhelm. You’re going to get disregulated. There’s something red on the dashboard that’s flashing that you’re ignoring. You know,

Hannah: limp mode coming in.

Stuart: Turtle mode, and the first thing is the adrenaline trap. The power of the sparkly new and fresh. You are completely wiped. And then you get that email. Bing. We’d like you to do a little bit of work. I can do that. That me. You’ve identified that I can do work. And your brain suddenly goes, “Right, I need to go and deep dive. And you look and you read and you go, “What do they mean about that word? Why did they choose that word? Let me go and… and before you know it, two hours have passed and it’s 9:00 at night and you’re thinking, oh shiy, I should have been sat on the sofa.” And you arrive on the sofa with so few spoons that you’re nonverbal or, you know, you’re just dribbling.

Jemma has said things to me before and I’ve turned to her and she said I’ll talk to you when you’re here.

Hannah: I’ll talk to you next week when you’re awake again.

Stuart: And my uncle gave me a term and we use this term now. If you go and stay at my uncle’s you might walk into a room and he’ll just be sat on the sofa just sort of staring into the middle distance and you’ll start talking to him and he’ll just say, “I’m absent.”

Hannah: Oh my gosh, your uncle’s a genius.

Stuart: Game changer.

Hannah: I’m absent like 90% of the time, Stu.

Stuart: Game changer. And we use it in the house. Like, if we can’t talk, I’m absent. Like, even if I’m present physically, the lights are on, but no one’s…you can’t talk to me. Yesterday, Jemma came in to have a conversation with me in the office, and I had three things going on and a Zoom call that I was meant to go on, and my brain was just like add it to the queue because if you ask me to answer that now, I’ve got to literally put my three juggling balls down, turn, focus my cone of attention on you, process that, and at that point, what was I doing?

Hannah: Where are the balls?

Stuart: What’s the Zoom link? Yeah.. Chaos. Exactly. Um, the other one is that people mistake urgency for capacity. So, the urgency comes in, check your capacity. And I mean that genuinely like any business would. And don’t forget this is the business podcast. You have to assess your capacity to undertake the task at hand and be genuinely honest with yourself of “am I going to do this or can I take some time to do this? What do I need to do to negotiate this?” How do you approach that when the the new shiny sparkly lands and suddenly your capacity is on 5% but you know new shiny capac new shiny project.

Hannah: Well, Stuart, I’m really crap at that. I am improving though with time. I think I’m very dopamine driven. I’m very kind of, you know, ping new email. But I’m getting better at looking at my capacity. And actually, I was teaching my daughter the other day, which I think is again something you’ve taught me. If somebody asks her a question, she kind of panics and she doesn’t really know, especially if it’s a work related thing. And I said to her, ‘it’s totally acceptable to say, can you leave that with me coz I’d like to mull it over”.

Stuart: 100%.

Hannah: So what happened basically was that she said yes. Committed in panic, you know,

Stuart: people pleasing

Hannah: massive people pleasing situation and then she’s “I wish I hadn’t said that. I wish I hadn’t agreed to that”.  And, you know, overwhelmed. She’s one of us and she was feeling the pressure and annoyed at herself because “why did I say yes”. And and that’s when I said to her what you’ve taught me. To just say “ I’d like to have a couple of hours to think about that. Or can I let you know in the morning”.  Or whatever it is, give yourself that time because we can be impulsive. We can be shiny thing driven. And also, if I get a shiny thing into my inbox and I want to do it, then I am learning not to say “yeah, yeah,  I’ll have that back to you in two days”. I’m learning to say “I’d love to do that. I’m really interested but actually I don’t have capacity this week or next week. You know I could get to this in maybe 10 days”. And see what they say.

Stuart: Let me introduce the listeners to the concept of the red rope.

Hannah: Oh my goodness.

Stuart: Okay.

Hannah: It’s like every day is a school day. I love Stuart stuff.

Stuart: You need to put a red rope around your time because that does two things. One, it respects yourself. So, you are honoring your commitment to respect your own energy and check in with your capacity. Two, it sounds so much more professional to say, can I check my diary and a few commitments before I come back to you? Because it means that I’m going to respect my time when it comes to you. I’m not just jumping in. I’m not just putting you at the head of the queue. And this is where the red rope comes in. So there was a guy launching a nightclub in New York City. And he wanted to make it the hottest place in town. So what he did was for two weeks beforehand, he put the music on in the nightclub, turned the music up, put the bouncers outside, and put a red rope and paid actors to stand in a queue and create demand that was visible on the street.

Well, of course, he also used to pay celebrities to get out of their car on the way somewhere, walk into the club through the club and the car would meet them out the back and they would continue and he’d pay them a  significant amount of money just to be seen walking in and papped going into his club. Anyway, it launches two weeks later. Massive success. The point to it is scarcity breeds value. So, if you say to somebody, I’m ready to do your work right here, right now. Who would employ a builder that could come around in the next five minutes versus a builder which says to you “I’m going to have to book you in next month now”.  But you know their work is top-notch, and that also you know their work is going to deliver what you need. And that’s the approach I have. So when a customer comes to me and says can you do this, if it’s a good customer and they’ve got lots of time spent with us and we’ve got a good relationship, some of my customers are 20 years or more, then of course I’m as honest as they come. You know we’re a bit busy today. Can we squeeze this in tomorrow? Fine, fantastic. But if I get a new customer that comes to me and says “need a new website to be built” irregardless of where we are in our production schedule. Well, let’s have a meeting next week because that immediately says I’m in control of my time this week and I’m never free. Okay, the word free never comes into it. I’m available. Free denotes I have no value.

And just a little psychological thing. And again, you know, if you want to book next week, I can accommodate you then. You know, you’re being flexible. You’re offering them whatever they want, but next week. And then in that meeting, our production schedule usually is 30 to 90 days depending on the size of the project that we’re working on. But that can’t be delivered immediately. You don’t have infinite capacity. And you’re a fool if you think that you do. It doesn’t matter whether it’s lumpy capacity or genuine smooth delivery by your team. Point to it is you have a specific capacity. Unless you value your time, don’t expect anybody else?

So, I have a red rope. If somebody phones me that I don’t know about, I don’t answer. “But Stuart, what about sales?” Yeah. But anybody I have worked with over the last 20 years who’s come rushing to me with a demand that they need me to give them all my attention immediately and unreservedly because they’ve got the best thing since sliced bread. Well, I’m really sorry. We have complete capacity and we can’t help you. Just You know, unless it’s a customer I already know and have worked with and understand how they treat people and I’ve worked well with them. The amount of times I’ve taken on a short project, a short deadline project because somebody has come running to me with their hair on fire and then it’s burnt me out and then you don’t get any thanks and they’re so price sensitive that the next time you charge them to do anything again, they throw their hands in the air and march off. Way too many experiences of that.

Uh so this is the list of things which are going to identify and do jump in if any of these resonate.

Hannah: Literally my list. I think I’m looking at it and I’m like yeah sorry I’ll let you…

Stuart: We could take them in order if you want.

Hannah: No no no no. What I mean is you know I’m going to be like yes yes yes.

Stuart: And I wrote this in about 5 minutes flat. This wasn’t research. This was just my genuine lived experience. So, here we go. Early warning signs. We’re taught to ignore. Okay. Or we’ve conditioned ourselves to ignore:

Using sugar for energy and a dopamine hit.

Hannah: What is that wrong, Stuart?

Stuart: Four 4:00 in the afternoon, four biscuits and two Reese’s chocolate cups.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah.

Stuart: Uh Yeah. Way way too many examples of me having a nice sugar crash at about 6pm, sleep on the sofa. Um, insomnia, but sometimes it can be a flag that the brain’s like… I think of it like this. You got your car in top gear. You’re doing 100 miles an hour. The wheels are spinning, but it’s up on a jack. You know, you’re going nowhere, but your brain’s going and that just leads to insomnia, you know, list after list. Uh, the tightening spiral of tasks where you’re adding another one and another one and another one. This usually has come from a people pleasing perspective of like, “oh, they’ll be disappointed in me”. Oh, just imagine that instead of a complete and utter brown out for about three weeks, somebody’s disappointed in you. Oh, sure they’ll get over it. You can see how my attitude has formulated over the years.

Hannah: Be more like Stuart. That’s the message here.

Stuart: Uh, never catching up. your to-do list. Somehow, despite all of your processes and your own efficiency, you end the day with more on the list than you had when you started. Okay, guaranteed that is a one-way door to the downhill slope.

Um, being unable to say no and mean no. Full stop. End of sentence. Would you like me to say it again? What part of no do you not understand? Is no not a sufficient answer? for you. Well, I can’t help you beyond no.

Um, saying sorry a lot. I’m not sorry. Uh, no. Full stop. End of sentence. Red rope. The sorry is not my inability to service you just because you knock on my door. That would be on you. You don’t engage with the drama. No. Then silence and watch their brain just skip a beat like one of those ratchets going backwards. I’m expecting more begging and crying. Um an the anxiety hamster in the wheel.

If I say no, they won’t like me. If they won’t like me, then that’s going to be like every other time I’ve been rejected by anybody for being a bit weird, but for holding on to my own power and being empowered. And I’ve seen this a lot with certain relationships. I’m not going to lay it at the door of anyone in particular, but that constant gnoring. I’m letting my partner down. And the horrible part about it is the partner using that to manipulate the person to get what they want. It’s a horrible codependency and it’s very toxic.

There’s a couple of people I just want to take to one side and go, you do realize you’d be happier not married. Just genuinely be you’re decent people, but you’re not making each other happy. And guess what? The kids are a little distressed by it. Anyway, I’m not here for marriage guidance, but just saying tonight, especially difficult when one of them is definitely neurotypical and the other one is spicy AF.

Um, feeling like you’ve always forgotten something. Uh, and often waking up feeling like, oh, there was something I was supposed to do. And sometimes it’s real and sometimes it’s imagined, but it’s just there lurking. And that’s kind of a hangover of the anxiety thing. Um, drifting off when others are talking. Uh, more than usual.

Hannah: I was gonna say that’s my whole life.

Stuart: More than normal. Yeah,

Hannah: More than normal.

Stuart: You know, I I have those moments where you’re listening, you’re listening, you’re listening, you’re listening, you suddenly realize you haven’t heard anything for a good two or three minutes because you’ve been thinking about the buttons on their t-shirt. Why have they got buttons on a t-shirt? They’re quite interesting. That’s quite interesting. What could you put buttons on? They’re brown buttons, but it’s a black t-shirt. Why didn’t they use black buttons on a black t-shirt? Or contrast them with a white? What was What? Hang on. My name’s been mentioned. What have I missed? Yeah. Um, drifting off when others are talking said that focusing on any task is draining like lifting a 50 pound weight with your mind. So literally the act of focusing is like the thought of running a marathon. Just to even think about the answer to the question is way more than you can carry because you’re carrying so much already. Um, oh, I get this. The flinching stress ticks.

I tick quite badly sometimes and sometimes I vocalize as well. Now you could say that that’s very Touretti and it is because it’s completely involuntary and at my worst when I was going through my major burnout in my mid 20s um I threw yogurt across the aisle in ASDA. lt was like I was given an electric shock and the yogurt flew out of my hand. It just went everywhere in the aisle.

Hannah: You just walked away?

Stuart: I didn’t. No. I had to go and get someone to clear it up.

Hannah: There’s a lunatic in aisle four. Claire, can you go and…

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Claire, go and get the broom.

Um, being irritable, short fuse, and quick to frustration. And nine times out of 10, it’s with yourself.

Hannah: Oh yeah.

Stuart: The amount of times I’ve been so angry at myself that I have to say to Jemma, “It’s not you, it’s me.” And genuinely mean that I’ve got so in my head about whatever it is. And then they’ve asked you a question and you’re not angry for them asking the question. It’s perfectly reasonable. Would you like something to eat or a cup of tea? No.

Hannah: Shut up. Stop being nice.

Stuart: Not right now. That’s my big one. Not right now. And Jemma’s like, “Oh, okay.”

Hannah: Let’s do a hand (hold a ‘stop’ hand up). So I’ve learned to just do a hand, like somebody will walk into the room that I’m in and they’ll just start talking and I’ll just go (holds hand up)

Stuart: walking into the room and just starting talking. That’s me. That’s me all the time. But I hate that.

Hannah: Me too. I’m such a hypocrite. I’m like, I can do it. You can’t.

Stuart: Yeah. Special privilege. Coz if I don’t get it out, I’ll forget it and then then we’ll be stuffed.

Hannah: Yeah. And then we’ll cry.

Stuart: Um emotional cobbles. You know the emotional cobbles. So you’re driving along with your partner and everything seems fine and then suddenly you hit some Belgium parve, as you might refer to it, and suddenly it’s like you’re trying to have a conversation and the emotions are like “I don’t know what I’m feeling right now, but I’m not feeling quite right and I don’t know how to regulate this. And this is going to take a little while to get over. So just stick with me but don’t ask me a question and turn the radio off”. Uh you know, you know what we’re talking about. I’m trying to find a parking space. Panicking for no reason.

Hannah: Oh yeah, this is a big one for me.

Stuart: Yeah. And I’m not talking about an anxiety attack or a panic attack. Those are very distinct. Panicking like suddenly just going, “Holy fuck what happens if the bank closes tomorrow and never opens again? How am I going to get all my money out completely irrational kind of, not based on a real thing. It’s like waking up and going, “Oh, it’d be really terrible to have to take your kids to the hospital.” Why did you think that? Oh, I’m going to be thinking that all day.

It’s really random stuff. The jumping at small noises or having an irrational feeling like if somebody sneezes. When I’m wound up or depleted of capacity, no energy and somebody sneezes, I want to..just why? And I do not excuse myself from the sneezing. That’s the other thing. I can sneeze and be utterly enraged at my.. “why just why would you make That stupid noise body”.

Hannah: to your own sneeze.

Stuart: My own sneezes. Yeah,

Hannah: I’ve done that, too. I’m like, shut up. Stop making that noise.

Stuart: Not too fully enraged. Jesus, man. I know. Ridiculous. I know. I’m lifting the lid. Brown outs we talked about.

Hannah: Yeah, they were good.

Stuart: And the other one is having the incorrect emotional response to the input.

Hannah: Oh, yeah.

Stuart: Really sorry. Um, fluffy kins. Died (laughs). Sorry. My condolences. Coz I don’t know why that happens, but I can. Yeah, I can recognise that.

It’s just like you can’t… your brain goes to put a pin in it. Oh, I’m really sorry. Sorry for your troubles, condolences, or whatever. But somehow it gets distracted by the clown with the balloons pulling the funny face.

Hannah: But also my brain goes like, “Oh, it was really sad. We had to have our cat put down the other day.” My brain goes to how did it die? I don’t mean obviously it died coz it got put down, but my brain’s like, “What was wrong with it? Did it get run over a bit and it was a bit dead?” I need to know that stuff, but I can’t ask. Details matter. Really creepy. So, I just have to say, “Oh, sorry.” But I’m annoyed because I need the detail. I

Stuart: or the opposite. I’m really upset that my cat died. And “ yeah, so what?” Can we get on with the meeting? Move on. Get another one. burning sunlight. Can we just, you know, tick tock? Sorry about fluffy if that’s what you need.

But yeah, you see, all of these are symptoms of something isn’t right with what’s going on either inside you or externally and you need to, you know, right size the effort to the capacity.

Hannah: Yeah. Right.

Stuart: Thank you for bearing with me through that trauma dump.

Hannah: That was immense. But that entire list was literally my every day. And I was going, “Oh, I need to look into that a bit more.” I didn’t realize that list was literally all the red lights on the dashboard that I need to be working out why they’re coming from.

Stuart: Your car needs a service. Time to take Hannah in for an MOT.

Hannah: Oh gosh, that ship sailed years ago. Um, so yeah, that leads us on to the guilt loop. So I think I think a lot of us and certainly I can only talk for myself, but this is the case for me. I often already feel that I’m…” not good enough” is a classic, isn’t it, for us a lot? But more a kind of I’m already like 80% of your average person. I don’t really believe that, but this is the kind of insecure part talking. You know, I’m thinking I’m already not very good, so I can’t have rest because rest makes it feels unsafe to me because then it’s like you’re not doing well enough anyway, Hannah, and now you’re taking some time off as well.

Stuart: Yeah. If you’re 80% is  your 100%….sorry if somebody else’s 80% is your 100% no matter how hard you try. If you’re not doing 100% you’re not keeping up with the 80% that they’re putting in. But you see that way is where the madness comes. They’ve still got 20%. You’re running on fumes just to keep up with them.

Hannah: What, you’re like a one man band. You got symbols on your elbows. You got your knees going. You’re trying to like nod your head for the triangle. It’s just chaos.

Stuart: Exactly that. And you’re not making a pleasant tune, by the way, either. It’s just chaos coming out of you.

Hannah: Oh my gosh. But can you imagine like triangles? Oh my god,  so I suppose I mean you’ve said this, we’ve both said this before. We see rest is framed as a reward in society, right? You know, you’ve done something. Oh, why don’t you go and have a cup and a biscuit? You’ve earned it. All that kind of stuff.

Stuart: going on holiday. It’s a reward.

Hannah: I fell out quite badly with somebody on Facebook because they were like, “Booked my holiday. We deserve it.” And I replied, “Doesn’t everybody deserve the chance just to rest and whatever that looks like for them. Because it was a bit kind of, the underlying message was “we’ve worked harder so we deserve a holiday, and we’re going to show you all about it on Facebook. Just to piss those of you off who  can’t go on holiday”.

Stuart: Do you know the best way around that? Especially if it’s a friendnemy.

Hannah: No, It is a friendemy.

Stuart: Yeah. We deserve it. No, you don’t. You’re idiots. You’re the least deserving people. It’s not hair shampoo.

Hannah: You’re not worth it. You are not worth it. Not you listeners, by the way. Just a friend of mine that we won’t out. In fact, I don’t even have a particular one in mind. There’s a lot of idiots on Facebook and I’m too much of a people pleaser to remove them.

Um, but actually, you know, Stuart said this before, the rest is not the reward. The rest is the preparation to do the work for people like us, right? Um so we shouldn’t think of it as I don’t deserve rest yet cuz I’ve got to push on and you know, burn myself out to a crisp. Actually, where we’ve talked about buffer days and allowing, you know, if you’re doing something and you know it’s going to zap all of your final spoons, all of your energy, then you know the following day you need to plan in as little as possible or just the things that you can do easily that don’t burn you out and and zap everything you’ve got.

Stuart: Move it on there with the energy thing because that’s for me the key. Once I’d figured out how to manage my energy and how to create a sustainable life with lumpy energy flow and sometimes no energy like for a couple of weeks. Just flat, like “oh my god this is never coming back. It’s never changing”. This is the new normal. Um you have to have some rules in place, some prep in place, some processes in place, but it can be done. And especially with modern life, you know, as soon as the internet arrived, and I’m talking as a very early adopter. One of the first 500 people in the UK with a cable modem. Let’s

Hannah: check you out with your internet.

Stuart: NTL World, they came round and they had a handburnt disc with my drivers on it. I mean, you know, talk about ground zero. But once I’d worked out what the energy debt looks like and eliminated it, I was able to better regulate. Now, at times that can be incredibly dull because people go, “Oh, we’re going out on Saturday. Do you want to come?” And you look at your working week and you think to yourself, “No, this week has used up all my spoons. I need my weekend to prepare for next week.” And recharge from last week, but the prep for next week is me doing nothing, not going out. I’d have a high old time. I will burn myself out. And sometimes, yeah, you might go, “Yes, It’s worth it.” And you know that for the next two at least two weekends, maybe even a month, you’ve got nothing more on your horizon because that one night out will burn through everything you’ve got and you just end up with this energy deficit that you are always chasing.

And believe me, you know, that’s how I ended up where I did in my mid 20s. Burnout isn’t sudden. You don’t suddenly wake up one morning and you’re in burn out. All of the instances where I have and I’d like to think that they get less and less. And I still know my future still holds some, but it’s acknowledging that they’re there and they’ve arrived and that actually you need to take time to recover because you just Well, mine ended in hospital on at least one occasion and then that just requires even further for you to come back.

You know, it’s like getting to the end of a marathon and trying to run another marathon and then you collapse after five minutes and you think to yourself, “Oh no, that’s a silly decision. I’ve now got twice as long to recover.” But it’s that compound interests of the overwhelm that you start to get overwhelmed and then you get more overwhelmed and then you get more behind and then the anxiety loop loops around and then you run through the list of things that I’ve given you and they just build and build and build and it’s like building a brick wall in front of you that eventually collapses on top of you and you have to get out from under and the higher it is the longer it takes for you to get out from under. And just what I’ve experienced, but take it from me folks it’s not fun

Hannah: we’ve learned we’ve burnt ourselves out specifically so you don’t have to!

Stuart: well you’ve had your experiences. Absolutely.

Hannah: So, we’re just doing this for our listeners so that you never have to. But actually the reality is, you know, we’ve been talking about the signs so you can avoid a full-on burnout .And recognising those early signals, Stuart  gave us a really good list of all the different things, and I was nodding and I was joking. Well, I wasn’t joking. It was real, but yeah, I was nodding along to that list thinking, “Oh, Hannah, okay, actually.” So, and because I know myself enough, I was already aware that there’s a few not even work things. There’s just a few things going on in my brain that I need to kind of take off that little list before they start singing the catastrophe song. Because it’s always something really irrelevant. Like, you know, I’ve heard my husband say something on the phone and then I’m like, “Oh my gosh, that means” and then I go and check with him a few weeks later and he’s like, “Oh no, that was about somebody at work. So the catastrophe song has already done all the full verses before I’ve like..

Stuart: the orchestra’s got going

Hannah: literally tuned up and like you know terrible. Let’s talk about withdrawal. I know we’ve both talked about this before but that kind of irritable brain fog shuts down and then you know climbing into your cave.

Stuart: Oh yeah.

Hannah: You’ve been in the cave.

Stuart: Bear in the cave. Yeah. So. we have this saying “warning when bear in cave do not get long stick and poke bear otherwise stick bearer will be struck by the stick by a crying bear” Warning on the outside of the cave do not do not poke bear with long stick and that’s what people do they you go into your cave and it’s self-preservation at this point. You’re not “it’s like it really isn’t you it’s me and I need to do this otherwise uh just just leave alone” and then they come and they go, “Are you all right?” “No, not at all. You won’t be soon if you don’t fuck off and leave me alone. Do you want anything?” Yes. I want you to go as far away as possible. Stop asking me. You’re so locked into your own…

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: cave. It’s the only way I can explain it.

Hannah: It’s a really good way to explain. And you know, in our house I just say I’m hibernating, which is the same thing, right? If I go upstairs, well, I’m always upstairs. It’s my kind of hang out, but I’m basically in a constant state of hibernation, but some of that is for health reasons as well. Which exacerbates all of that, but yeah, I’ll just say guys, I’m not being antisocial. Um, I’m cool. I’m happy, but I am hibernating this evening. So, like, unless you really need me, then just leave me with, you know, 15 series of Criminal Minds and then that’s another example. So, my hibernation is to fixate on something on telly or whatever . But I can get locked into that world and then if somebody starts to try and interrupt when I’m in an episode I get really mean. I know you won’t believe that Stuart because I’m so amazing and never mean but I can be like really really mean. But because I’m not inherently mean. I’ll be kind of like, “Oh, shut up and go away. You’ve ruined it now.” And then a second later, I’m like, “Oh, I’m really sorry. I don’t know why I said that. That was a really horrible thing to say.”

Stuart: I’ll say something like that. Jemma will laugh at me. She’ll just find it hilarious.

Hannah: That is the best way.

Stuart: You’re so angry. It’s hilarious. And I know she’s not laughing at me. She’s laughing at the scenario. You know that she’s asked a very minor question and distracted me for one second from some boring thing which probably got a lot of numbers and a spreadsheet attached and what do you want? She’ll start laughing. I’m just telling you your food’s here. Oh right, thank you. Yes, that’s why I’m angry.

Hannah: I’ve just done a nice thing for you, Stuart. Sorry about

Stuart: Oh yeah, bear in cave. Don’t poke bear in cave.

Hannah: Oh, that’s fabulous. So I suppose it’s about kind of, you know, you and I are both really self-aware of the way that we are around this stuff and it sounds to me like our partners, our better halves, maybe sometimes are aware too.

Stuart: I think for me the diagnosis kind of rubber stamped what was already happening in our house. We were already aware of the way we all are with each other. And there was no shame or judgment based on if you’re having a bad day, we love you. You’re just having a bad day. We’ll be here to help. What can we do? But it feels unnatural as a parent to withdraw from your child and let them sort them out. But what they need is calm and quiet and focused, not being told to confront their emotions on your time scale.

No. Would you? Would you? If somebody walked up to the street, justify yourself. Why are you this way? Why are you dressed like that? Tell me immediately. Tell me immediately. And you go to walk away and they go, “No, no, no. Don’t you walk away.”

Hannah: I remember a while ago now, so the other three people, my favorite people in my household, all process stuff completely differently to me. I’m a talker. I need to talk it out. I need to trauma dump on some random lady on the Tesco’s still. Um, and my the other three members of the Logan household don’t do that. They like to internalize it. Not internalize it like pretend it’s not there, but that’s how they process stuff. And actually knowing that, and I know that really well now, has been brilliant because actually I’m able to just be like, “Okay, that’s the way they do that.” And just respect that. Um, it’s not always my way.

Stuart: It’s trusting that they have the process that they’re going to come out the other side. And I think a lot of parents worry about that. But you see, I think a lot of the trauma could be eliminated by just taking the kids out of school.

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: Just the trauma around trying to get a send placement, just it’s not good for the family. Oh, guess what? Yeah, which probably means your neurodiverse child is in a high state of emotional dysregulation. We’re going to ask you to fill out a lot of forms and prove that they’re unhappy at school so that we can provide them with what they need. It just seems so backwards because under the Disability Act, you can ask for accommodations at work without ever having to justify why you need that. As long as there are reasonable adjustments to allow you to continue with your job, you don’t need to rock up and say, “Oh, here my diagnosis for you to treat me like a human being. But kids do at school. Yeah. No, no, no. You can’t have the ear defenders on. No, that’s quite alien. Look at you.

A man behind a podium in a sharp suit says that it’s not natural and God’s looking. So, you know, just don’t get me wound up about  school. It’s open prison for children.

Hannah: Uh It really is. It really is.

Stuart: Anyway, let’s move along. We’ll do education. You’ll get your day. Don’t you worry. I’m staring at you. State education. Redefining the balance is the key to it. Accepting all of these limitations that we throw at you. And of course, your mileage may vary. You may have all of these, none of these, a variety of these, your own super set of these. This isn’t prescriptive in any way, and it’s not meant to make you feel bad. I don’t do that, but I do this. We’re just giving examples from our lived experience. So, this is no way comprehensive like medical just do not take medical advice from me. As I always say, I’m an unreliable witness at best. But you have to acknowledge your own lived experience. And it doesn’t matter what the rest of society tells you. They are just ghosting you as to your own lived experience. Listen to the inner voice because actually it will probably guide you in the right direction. Unless you’re a psychopath and a serial killer, in which case, hand yourself in.

Hannah: Don’t listen.

Stuart: Don’t listen. Hand yourself in. Um, but that pacing part matters. Pacing matters rather than consistency. The fact that you keep going back and working at your own pace. Now, that’s really tough when you’ve got a job and a boss and all the rest of it, which is why self-employment really works. Um, but if you do have that experience and you have to take time time out of an evening to not go and be on a committee, to not go and do the kids football like you promised all the other parents and not feel bad about it because if you only have 80% and it’s 100% of other people’s, you’re always going to be running a 20% deficit if you’re trying to match yourself to other people. So that pacing really really matters. And I’ve done a lot of running and what I realized is you can only run your own race. There are always going to be faster runners than me. There’s going to be younger people than me basically but there are people that are slower than me and we’re all running our own race. This is not the Olympics. This is how I can get the job done and it might take, in my instance, you know, a half marathon, two and a half hours. That’s not quick, but I’m out there for two and a half hours. Somebody does it in an hour and a half. Have they spent half as much energy? Uh, sorry, twice as much energy or half as much energy. You know, they spend half the time. So, but did they expend twice the energy to do it? Or is it they’re just exceptional runners and they’ve got a capacity for that? If I tried to run a half marathon in an hour and a half, I would not make it halfway round before collapsing. I wouldn’t make it the first mile. I cannot run at that pace

So, it’s knowing your limitations and your restrictions and understanding the rhythms. You know, I know when I’m distracted, I will come into work, especially there’s nothing worse than an appointment in the afternoon that I need to prepare for. I’ll prepare for it and then I’ll spend all the rest of the day obsessing about this appointment to the point where it will distract me from the work that I need to do. Do you have anything like that.

Hannah: The golden thing is just a flashing light throughout the day and I’m like yeah.

Stuart: yeah brutal. Absolutely. Um and that actually sustainable effort is the key to this. Not matching stride for stride somebody else who’s, you know, maybe even doing the same thing. Or the outcomes are going to be different if you have different tools to do the job. So it’s a challenge, but committing to what you can actually do versus what Superman can do is it.

You know, I have  this example from this weekend. Going to build some shelves under the stairs and I’m also going to build a rotating unit in front of that. And there are two other small DIY jobs and I’m going to change the two handles upstairs and I’ve got to fix the tap. Okay. And all I’ve done by the end of the weekend in two days. Oh, and that by the way was just one day’s work. Going to have a rest on Sunday. Actually, the reality of it is I spent all weekend under the stairs. I got the shelves done. But in my head, I’m stressing about the fact that I’m not meeting the incredibly high bar. That impossibly high bar. I didn’t have enough hours, but I’ve been a terrible judge of what I can achieve in a certain time. But conversely, that’s also been quite useful because you’d be surprised at what you can get done when you challenge yourself.

And the final point I think I would make with this is that you need permission to adjust without self-judging. And we can be our own worst critics. The shit I say to myself in my downtime, in my off peak in, you know, when I’ve made a mistake, I have to remind myself, if you spoke to a really good friend or a family member in that way, they’d have every right to be flaming angry with you. You know, how dare you say that? I’m doing my best.

And of course, no beating yourself up if you have to resort to plan B. And plan B might be, I have to stop right now. I can’t carry on. That’s perfectly acceptable because what I find is when I continue to persist doing things where my energy is gone, my focus is gone, my attention is gone. I come back the next day, I have to redo it anyway. It’s just taken me three hours to make a complete mess that I’m scrapping and going to do again and I’ll get done in an hour and a half. So, might as well just leave the chair at the point where I’m like, this is going nowhere. Um, yeah. So, if you’re in running lights mode or low power mode, quit whilst you’re ahead. And the worst part about it is if I’m doing something physical, I’m much more likely to have an accident. And just my focus wanders. I suddenly at the last critical moment and I, you know, make a stupid error. I damage something, myself included. So, yeah, low energy, blinking lights, stop. go do something else. Go fishing or you know, whatever.

Hannah: something nice and chill.

Stuart: So, do we have any takeaways? We’ve been on a deep dive on this one. This is a  lengthy episode, but I think it’s  worthwhile because, I think for me if you are going to be self-employed and are neurodiverse, energy management is the absolute key to all of this.  And acknowledging what your energy is and working on your energy budget as much as you are on your monetary fiscal budget is going to be the key to a long-term successful outcome.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: What would you like to add? Come on, Hannah.

Hannah: My PDA is like, “No,

Stuart: You can have a sort of run.

Hannah: No, you do it.

Stuart: You do it. Yeah.

Hannah: Um takeaways. So, yeah, our energy is variable by design, right? It’s the way that we are. Um, we’re not defective. It’s the way that we are. So, not a bug.

Stuart: Yeah, feature not bug. So, we need to harness that, embrace that.

Hannah: Absolutely.

Stuart: Understand it.

Hannah: Um, also you were talking about how energy and time are not interchangeable. Burning the candle at both ends. I’ve done that so many times. Oh my gosh, I’ve done that so many times. Um, and you know, it’s not half the time. If you’re burning the candle at both ends, it’s not half time because for us, for NDS, it’s much shorter because we tend to start chipping away. in the middle of the candle. Um, getting the wick and trying to set fire to that, too. We’re just trying to burn the candle as much as possible from all angles.

Stuart: Why is all this wax here when when it could just be nothing but wick and have all of the fire. And sometimes I think when we’re taking a deep dive and I can feel like all the engines are getting a bit hot and it’s but I’m, you know, I’m enjoying it. Yeah. But actually, yeah, that is sometimes that you need to listen to that. because you are burning yourself. You’ve set fire to yourself and you’ve got some kind of crazy crazy laughter going on, but actually

Hannah: You’re enjoying it, but you know there’s a little bit in the back of your brain going, “Oh, Hannah, the fallout from this is going to be so bad. So bad.”

Um I think, you know, we’ve said sort of talked about pushing through as um a short-term tool, not a lifestyle.

Stuart: Gosh, we’ve all used our overdraft. But just don’t go beyond your overdraft for too long.

Hannah: No. Because then you start getting fined and it’s just brutal. Um so yeah, hustle culture is toxic. I always get the rage about hustle culture because I’m so bored of being told, not networking things, but just being told in general like  you’ve got to do this, you know.

Stuart: I don’t have to do anything I don’t want to do. I think you’ll find. I’ll do whatever I like. Thank you very much.

Hannah: And also, you know, the rest for us is maintenance. It’s not a reward. It’s the way that we prepare. It’s like you were saying,  athletes prepare before they exert. They do all the, you know,  the pasta loading and the stretching and all of the different bits and pieces that they need to do. It’s not the thing you get at the end of it.

Stuart: Nobody does the training after the event.

Hannah: No, it’s ridiculous.

And also looking at those, we’ve touched on it, but looking at those burnout signals, it builds quietly. And when we notice, and you and I are a lot more self-aware when we do notice, you know, coz sadly we’ve been there, haven’t we? Where we didn’t notice. Um,

Stuart: yeah.

Hannah: And it’s brutal. And it’s brutal for everybody watching and it’s brutal for you to experience it. Um, but actually noticing early makes a giant difference and it really really matters. And you know, counseling is absolutely fine. Postponing is a very valid option. I’ve recently been doing that a lot. I’ve  had various things going on and every time when I’ve said “I’m so sorry can we push our meeting back to the following week”. Every time people say “of course, absolutely”. No one has said “what the hell Hannah”.

You know in my brain I’m like “they’re going to hate me”. Reality is like of course absolutely no worries next week’s cool you know. So not worrying about catastrophizing this stuff. Just put yourself first. You know, it’s that whole empty cup, isn’t it? You can’t pour from, you know, you’ve got to put your own mask on and all of that. There’s a million different varieties of pouring from empty cups. And

Stuart: Well, I can reverse that. If you’re holding a pint and you’re a pint, you don’t expect to hold a pint and a half. So, why beat yourself up?

Hannah: Yeah. Absolutely.

Stuart: You’re just going to end up with a load of water everywhere if you try. Just accept you’re a pint. That’s what you can do. I’m doing my best. Yep. Well, crack on. No shade. New phrase I’ve learned.

Hannah: I love the word shade. It’s so good. So, have you got any extra tips or anything you need to add to

Stuart: Well, it’s been very tip heavy, hasn’t it? There’s been a lot of tips in there.

You should do what works for you. Work out what works. But we’re just saying if it runs too long. with too little energy. Don’t expect good outcomes. If the same task is feeling harder than it did when you did it before, don’t beat yourself up. Take that as a moment to go, “is this the best time to be doing this”? Can I look back over the last few days and see where my energy has leaked out?

And uh acknowledging that the real world can conditions have changed is just pragmatic. It’s like going out into the weather and saying, “Oh, it’s freezing cold, but I’m not going to put a jumper on.” You fool. Just adjust to the pragmatic conditions in front of you. Um, and when I say you are a fool, you know, I’m looking in the mirror, talking to myself.

Hannah: Yeah, he’s talking to himself.

Stuart: Um, if you’re running on adrenaline and that’s all you’re running on, then prepare to crash. Or adjust, but you need to rest before the work. This is fundamental. Our key takeaway. Yes, after you’ve done something, you’re going to be tired. Fine. But also add in time to get prepared to rest for the thing that’s coming up. So Saturday might be a day of rest. Sunday is a day of rest in preparation for the rest of the week.

Hannah: So sometimes I get a bit unnecessarily irritable about this, but you know, it’s a societal thing that people say “you got a lot planned for the weekend?”. And I always want to say Yeah, I’m preparing for the week ahead. I’m literally doing nothing. I’m going to watch Netflix, do a bit of washing. But it’s annoying because when they say that I feel, and this is a me problem, right? Not theirs. But I feel at that moment like I should be going to London and doing all that. But no, I’m not. It’s preparation for me. It’s um recovery from the week on Saturday and Sunday is preparation for the week ahead.

Stuart: Absolutely. Yeah. Um if you’re feeling guilty, having that rest. Like you’re having that conversation and somebody is saying to you, you know, their implication is that somehow you’re not sucking the marrow out of life and you’re frankly letting the human existence down and the human race is like arms crossed tutting because that’s in my head, you know. Um you’ve just got to remind yourself that rest prevents burnouts and that is wasted time and in business wasted time is going to mean that it’s going to take you longer to progress and you’ve missed opportunities in that time. So actually taking time for yourself is not selfish. It’s putting your own oxygen mask on first so that you can do the things that you need to do to keep your family and you safe, secure, financially in the right place and progressing.

If you’re a bit foggy and you’re a bit irritable, you’re in an energy spiral. Um And that’s not going to end well until you step in intervention on yourself and go, I’m just going to put everything down. I’m just going to go and lie down. I’m just going to go and take time out. I’m just going to go and recover and then rest in preparation for a return. Because yes, you might have people that are dependent on you. They might have deadlines. I’m not saying just up down tools and up sticks. But when you’re self-employed, you get the chance to go, all right, I’ve got a deadline next Wednesday. Actually, I’ve got to have two or three days of what I call stock in the warehouse. My brain is empty. I need to be absent from the business. I’ll set up my ‘out of office’.

And do you know what? In all the years I’ve been doing this, I’ve not yet had somebody come to me. And I work with web development, so you know, sometimes things need to be done quickly. I’ve yet to have a customer lose faith and walk away because I was out of office, you know, they’ve walked away for other reasons, mostly because I’ve got a red rope around my time

Hannah: coz you’re too good.

Stuart: Um,

Hannah: Too shiny. Also, when you’re planning your day, think of it like, what can I do today? If the answer is not very much, get all of the urgent, important, need to do, tasks done. That might be, well, going and listening to our um episode on delegation. Yeah, it’s what you need.

Stuart: It’s what you do need. You need a bit of delegation and a process to make sure that the person, the customer, they’re being handled no matter what happens so you can answer a question or defer them to or use AI or whatever works for your instance. Um and I think this is the key takeaway and I wrote this down And I firmly believe it because this is how I approach it. So if you’re pushing anyway, you know, you are reaching, you’re stretching, that’s fine. Growth can occur in that way, but you’ve got to realize that there’s going to be a price to pay for spending too long in an energy deficit. And you’ve got to choose to stop doing some things if you’re focusing on other things.

That’s just the reality. And I tried to do it all. I tried to be in three plays, start a business, have a new relationship, and go to Edinburgh with a play that was having problems internally as well. And I wondered why I fell over, coupled with a lot of unresolved trauma from the past few years. And you know, the blue touch paper had been lit months before, but finally it went bang because I didn’t take any of the warning signs. Many when I look back, there were many warning signs to look after myself. The human being, the animal that exists. I put layer upon layer of pressure on myself and that’s not going to be good. And so you have to think of yourself like a power bank the more things you plug in the quicker you will drain okay. So if you’re plugging more things in you have to start thinking about what you’re going to unplug to preserve your energy, and you will need your energy.

If you’re going to be like, “Okay, for the next six months, I’m going to do blah blah blah.” I would suggest that’s perhaps a bad course of action, but you do you. But there will be a deficit that will come due that you need to think about and budget for. And yeah, all right, you get through the six months, but don’t then go, “Let’s do it again. Oh, I did that all right for six months. I’m completely frazzled and I’ve had a row every day. Everyone hates me, and I can’t get anyone to return my call, but you know, let’s go again.

Um, so things like don’t do the washing today. It doesn’t matter. Do the washing tomorrow. I know that will catch up with you as well, but you know, as your kids age, get them to do some of the chores. Get them to join in. It’s their house. You know, we got a house full of four adults. We all pitch in. I see the fact that I stopped being their caretaker at the age where they could go out and own a property themselves. And again, you know, your domestic situation may be different. Cut your cloth accordingly. This isn’t a prescription for life. Please, please don’t let this be a prescription for your life. I don’t need that burden on me as well.

But the point I think that I would end on is listen to yourself. Listen to how you respond. to the work that you’re doing. Listen to how your body is telling you when it needs to rest. Gauge it by your relationships. Ask, have a frank conversation with partners and friends. Look, am I a bit of an ass sometimes? Yeah. Can you just say to me, Stu, you’ve been a bit of an ass. I won’t take it against you, but I need to know because I can’t judge it because we’ve also got the social thing going on, right? So, you’re not quite sure. You’re being really blunt and you’re just thinking, oh, it’s just coz I’m tired. But the other person’s thinking, why is he being such a twat. The fuck have I done to him? Jesus, man. But then they’re doing the social thing of like, all right, okay, so Stuart’s not having a good time. We’ll put a smile on it and we’ll get past it. But you need to know that. So having the right support network around you and in your relationships is an absolute gamecher. Total game changer.

Well, there we go. There’s a there’s a lot to pick up from that and and uh

Hannah: such a good one.

Stuart: It is quite a good one and it’s quite a good topic. and it’s one that I think you will get the sense that we’ve got a lot of experience with. So, if you have got any feedback, any comments, any thoughts, send it to us, hosts@businessodcast.com. We’d love to hear from you. Um, there’s lots of takeaways from that. Tell us what your biggest one was. Maybe you’ve got a hint or a tip that we missed or an issue that you’ve got a question around. Fire it over. Let us know. Love to hear. Um, Hannah, what’s going on next week? Come on.

Hannah: I love the buildup to this. Well, next week, if you have crashed and burnt into burnout, and yeah, we’ve all been there. Um, next week we’re looking at what happens after burnout. So, what recovery actually looks like for ND people, for our beautiful neurodiverse selves. Um,

Stuart: Okay.

Hannah: So, after burnout,

Stuart: Oh, so we’ve got what leads to burnout

Hannah: yeah,

Stuart: Next week we’re gonna do the aftermath. How to heal thyself.

Yeah. Um if you’ve got any comments, please, like I said, send them through to us. Uh join us at businessodcast.com. Don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe and do all that good stuff. If you would like to be a host, send us an email. The email address is on the screen if you’re watching on YouTube or it’s hosts@oddcast.com and uh raise your hand and we’ll send you a link to our guests form. And um we are going to start about getting some people in 2026. It’s taken a little while, but you know, like we say, we’ve cut our cloth accordingly. We haven’t run before we can walk. So, um, it is important. Thank you very much for listening and, uh, as always, we’ll see you next week. Goodbye.

Hannah: Thank you.

Is Using AI the Ultimate in ND masking?

AI can feel like a miracle — especially when you’re neurodivergent, low on energy, and trying to exist in a world that expects clear, calm, “professional” communication at all times. But when you’ve spent years masking to survive, it raises an uncomfortable question: is AI genuine support… or just another layer of performance?

In this episode, we explore why masking is so exhausting, how much of it is about survival rather than choice, and why tools that help us soften, shorten, or translate our communication can feel both relieving and risky. We talk about AI as an accessibility tool, a translator between ND and NT worlds, and a way to conserve spoons — while also questioning where the line is between filtering and hiding yourself.

We dig into authenticity in a tech-supported world, the emotional risks of over-reliance, and why using tools to meet your needs isn’t cheating, dishonest, or “taking shortcuts.” If you’ve ever worried that using AI means you’re masking harder, losing your voice, or somehow being less real — this episode is a reminder that support isn’t the same as pretending to be someone else.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to the Show
00:00:19 – Topic of the Week: Is Using AI the Ultimate in ND Masking?
00:02:00 – Masking and the exhaustion of editing your whole self
00:03:35 – The high cost of masking your magnificent inner zebra
00:07:13 – The gift and relief of finding out you’re ND
00:10:05 – Is AI a miracle NT translation tool to support your needs?
00:13:35 – Is using AI to support your work just a new mask?
00:15:34 – Why does society make life so difficult for disabled people?
00:17:05 – Reduce cognitive load with simpler signage, equality isn’t equity
00:18:38 – AI/LLMs help you show up as a better version of yourself
00:20:47 – Who are we masking for when we use AI?
00:23:40 – Being rude to AI and the wrong way to use it
00:25:01 – It’s not about hiding the truth, like masking, it’s a support tool
00:25:52 – AI is an ND/NT translator – the Babel Fish for modern life
00:27:10 – AI for idea iteration, not the finished product saves spoons
00:30:30 – The emotional (and other) risks on being over-reliant on AI
00:34:13 – Is it just a tool, to do a job, saving time and energy?
00:35:40 – Using AI intentionally to lighten the load not replace you
00:39:01 – Delegating to AI and remaining authentic
00:42:08 – Using AI when you don’t have the spoons
00:45:00 – Stephen Hawking and other examples of using tech to assist you
00:49:44 – Technology isn’t bad, esp. when it makes up for your shortcomings
00:51:54 – Are you using AI? Feedback, comments
00:52:20 – This week’s takeaways.
00:53:15 – Tips and insights
00:54:38 – Hannah’s TANGENT!
00:58:40 – Equity is not the same as equality
01:00:34 – Next Week’s Topic – Running on Empty; How ND Energy Actually Works
01:01:52 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

https://here2help.uk/further-information/ – Fab resource and amazing organisation raising awareness and support for autistic suicide prevention. 
Information regarding Alexythimia and other helpful autism and autistic related factsheets on the link.

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

————————————-

OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

 Stuart: The Business Podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, it’s another business podcast. Welcome to episode 25. I am your host, Stuart Morrison, and this is my co- host, Hannah Logan.

Hannah: Yay. Hello. 

Stuart: Hannah Logan. What is our fantastic topic of the week? 

Hannah: Ah — so this week we’re going to be looking into whether using AI is the ultimate in neurodiverse masking.

Stuart: Oo, interesting. 

Hannah: So I think it’s safe to say — or fair to say — that AI has become a lifeline for many people, and almost certainly a lot of neurodivergent people are included in that. Um, it can help with writing emails, organizing thoughts, planning tasks, regulating your tone, um, and just basically showing up in ways that can make us feel more acceptable to the outside world.

But then that raises a complicated question, doesn’t it? Like, are we using it as a support tool along with everybody else, or are we actually using it as another way to mask? Because for ND people like us that have spent years editing themselves to sound clearer, calmer, “more normal” in inverted commas, um… AI can feel like both relief but also pressure because it almost encourages us to, you know, not be our natural selves as well.

So, you know, this isn’t an anti-AI episode — not in the least. It’s about looking at intentional use, the authenticity, and also, you know, encouraging people, giving them permission to exist as they are with or without the tools.

So yeah, that’s a deep dive into what we’re going to be talking about this week. So: is AI a support tool, or is it getting in the way and just adding to the layers of masking?

Stuart: Interesting. Interesting. So let’s start really, I suppose… everybody out there listening will be fully aware of what masking actually is, but also looking at why it’s so exhausting. So masking isn’t just social — it’s cognitive, emotional, communicative — um, and it’s often more about survival than a choice, really.

Hannah: Oh, it’s editing your whole self.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah: Not good enough. What can I tweak? And all of that stuff. So… you know, yeah — editing your tone, your language, your reactions… and thinking, you know, when I’m doing stuff sometimes I’m thinking, “Is my face looking too happy? Because this is a sad conversation.” You know — what’s my face doing? It’s this constant worry that other people are probably not doing.

Um, and it’s, you know, hiding confusion and sort of overwhelm and intensity by masking our way out of that. Um, but then also, you know, what’s the long-term cost of constant self-monitoring? Because, I mean, I know it’s exhausting because I do it quite a bit — and I do it a lot less than I used to.

Um, I really do because I tell you what: I surround myself with people — you taught me this — I surround myself with people that don’t require that. You know, you might get the odd raised eyebrow when I rattle off on some random tangent, but generally I’m with my tribe. So I’m not required to pretend to be anybody other than my magnificent self.

Stuart: Yeah. You know, I broke at age 25 and refused to put the mask back on. Um, and it has cost me over the years. Uh, just from a… because I didn’t know who I was anyway, but I was just refusing to be this kind of toned down, tuned out, “don’t react, don’t respond,” put everything in a bag, hide away.

Even then, you’re too much. People laugh at you. The butt of all the jokes. Nobody wants to spend their time voluntarily with you. Just all of the things that I think back on — like I was looking for all the approvals and just to fit in. And it was quite clearly… it’s like, you know, I’m a zebra and I’m with all the horses. And you’re there, you know — and at least now, with the “suits,” they know. They know what they’re getting straight up.

 He’s a zebra over there. This is a magnificent zebra. So yes — no — I get it. I understand it. And once I understood what masking was, that for me was one of the biggest lessons that I learned: “Oh, it’s very performative.” This is why you’re struggling with that. It just… all of the pieces fell into place.

And this is the thing that people talk about labels. The gift that I got given at the age of 57 was: I have a reason for all of these things. That is so freeing. That is just… that’s like, “Oh, I’m not a broken human being. I’m actually a perfectly normal human being who just happens to be neurodiverse.” Yeah. Well, to nobody’s surprise.

Hannah:  Are you sure, Stuart? I think they might have messed up the tests.

Stuart:  Do you think 18 months of deep dive, and two really lengthy interviews, uh… and basically three separate qualified professionals, and a peer review board of all their notes and their findings… Yeah. People aren’t doing this and… just like the whole idea that people are doing this for… what? There is literally a leaflet. I got sent a PDF with three pages in it of “Now you’re neurodiverse. Here you go. Three pages. Good luck with that.” Yeah. Off you sod. Keep trying to fit in. Good luck, Stu.

Yeah. Yeah. So, the notion that there’s vast swathes of people that are jumping on some kind of freeload of help… and for those that do need the help and advice, I think — and I’m speaking this kind of in a broad brushstroke — but I think the majority of people who get diagnosed, who are highly educated, smart people who have been masking for many, many years, who suddenly come to this self-… diagnosis / rational realization of “Oh, well, that fits”… they’re not doing it for attention. They’re not doing it for reward. They’re doing it because they’re absolutely burnt out.

And actually, the relief of it — that “Oh, I’m not one step away from being psychotic,” or, you know, “I’m not a psychopath. I’m not this. I’m not that. I’m just this different species of human.”

Hanah: Yeah.

Stuart: Not any worse, not any better — just different. Just a different flavor.

Hannah: Yeah. I mean… when I found out I was neurodiverse and then I started — you know, who knew — started to do a deep dive for hours and hours through the night… Yeah. The signs were there.

Um, watching all the video, watching TikTok over and over… you know, I looked at things like rejection sensitivity dysphoria, and emotional regulation — or deregulation — and understanding: okay, so when I have a meltdown about something that most people would think, “What is she doing?” actually my body is viewing that situation differently. My brain is viewing that. So I’m melting down to something that in my brain is a complete catastrophe.

So it’s not that I’m like crying ’cause somebody used my favorite spoon — it is so much bigger than that in my brain. So it’s a crap example, but you know what I mean.

So yeah, for me understanding all of these terms and these different sort of attributes / comorbidities of autism and stuff has been hugely helpful. And I say it all the time, but if every time you went running, Stuart, you got really bad chest pains and you were out of breath and—

Stuart: I do.

Hannah: Yeah, I was going to say that would definitely be me. But let’s say, you know, you were getting a sort of worrying pain and then somebody said, “Well, actually, you know, your heart’s a little different… something going on there.” Um, you’d be like, “Oh, phew. I now know what’s going on.”

It’s no different. I’m simplifying — sorry listeners — but yes. You know, when you’ve got a diagnosis of anything, you understand your body, your brain, whatever it is, better. And then you know what you can do to work with that better — whether it’s a physical health thing, or a diet, you know, or a neurotype of your brain.

Stuart: So that’s the underlying map of what we’re dealing with, you know. Um, sometimes communication can be a struggle. Um, somebody says something and your head goes into knots, you know, trying to read into all of the things. Because a lot of the time the reason that these mechanisms in your head have built over time is because your own safety and sanity and your own sense of who you are has often been challenged by outcomes.

You’re like, “Well, why did that go badly wrong? I can’t…” And it’s almost like you can’t see the wood for the trees. You can’t see the neurodiversity for being the neurodiverse person you are. And especially when you’re masking, because you think, “Well, I’m doing all the same things as all the other people — holding it in the right places.”

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m trying to stare in their eyes as much as I possibly can.

Stuart: Just look like a serial killer at that point.

Hannah: So, this brings us neatly into the AI piece. You know, this is why AI can feel like a bit of a miracle tool, because you immediately have got something that can translate into neurotypical. You’ve got things that can make you seem less blunt and abrupt. You can tell AI, “Look, write this in a friendly, professional tone,” um, when you have no energy or spoons to do that.

And that can be the difference. You know, somebody gets you on the wrong day when you’ve just got some bad news and the whole thing’s going wrong. I mean, we were talking about delegating the other day — you know, if that’s gone wrong and then on top of it something else happens, that can wipe out all your spoons. And then somebody comes to you and you respond in the moment, and you read it back later and you think, “Oh, that was a bit blunt.”

But just whacking it quickly into AI and saying, “Make this a bit more friendly.”

Stuart: But is that us making up in a way which is unhealthy? Being neurodivergent is a disability. It is recognised under the Disabilities Act. You don’t need a diagnosis — self-diagnosis is acceptable in terms of occupation and asking for accommodations at work. But it is a disability.

And if AI is the tool that helps — I mean, you know, in blunt terms, like a wheelchair for somebody who has struggles with their mobility — um, is it something therefore that is going to make life a lot easier in future if, at the times you need to use it, you can get your needs met?

Hannah: Yeah. Um, I mean for me, you know, I’m a big fan of it and I do use it as a… I don’t know if I’d call it a miracle tool, but it’s certainly really helpful.

I mean, you know, sometimes if somebody sends me a really long email — which is ironic because most of my emails are really long when I’m sending them outbound — then sometimes I chuck it into ChatGPT (or other ones are available).

Yeah, most people are on ChatGPT. Um, and I ask, “What is this person saying? Give it to me in simple terms.” And it does. And it takes all the emotion out and, you know, all of that stuff.

Stuart: Um, and also I find that sometimes I can be overcomplicated because I’m trying to not make any assumptions and give people the full facts, when actually sometimes it can be a bit more than is required for the situation.

So chucking it into ChatGPT and you can say, “Reduce this — make sure the meaning is kept — but simplify it for a non-technical audience.” That saved me. I’m sure that saved me some customers.

Why is he being so picky? I’m not — I’m just trying.  Yeah. Well, that’s what you’re paying me for.

Hannah: I mean, it also… surely it’s no different if— you know, for example, I know that I can overexplain stuff and go into too much detail when it’s not required. So therefore, knowing that and having access to a tool that can save me probably two hours of reading the same email over and over and over… I mean, who wouldn’t want to use that?

But, you know, that leads quite nicely into the next part of this discussion really: what happens when the support — or using it as a support — starts to feel like a new mask?

You know, does it get to a point — and I’ve experienced this myself to some degree — does it get to a point where you suddenly feel like actually you can only be this polished version that AI tweaked?

You know, I’m not there at all, but… I’ve got one client that doesn’t like waffle. Well, yeah. Why did they pick me? But yeah. Okay.

Stuart: Because they wanted someone for detail.

Hannah: They do — and they love the detail of the stuff, the content that I do. But I’m aware that this person’s short on time and they really like a kind of two-line email. I really struggle with that.

So, you know, I have a “GPT” that just tweaks it and delivers it to this client the way that they need to hear it. And maybe they know that I’m doing that. I don’t know. I’m not fundamentally changing who I am — I’m just summarizing — because otherwise in the past, before these things existed, I’d have just reread and reread over and over… “Oh it’s too waffly, they’re going to hate me,” and RSD tickling in there, and oh—

Stuart: Yeah, I’ve got a customer who has been known to send one-word emails. One word.

Hannah: Just one word?

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, actually, that just— you know, or you send them a long lengthy email and they’ll say something like, “Copy that.”

Hannah: You’re like, “I just want a tiny bit more. I just need a tiny bit.”

Stuart: So I can’t close that tab then. That’s going to be flashing red next week. I need all the answers to the questions.

Hannah: I have so many questions in the blank space in your email. Um…

Stuart: But no, I hear that. You know, the thought that occurs to me here is — and I’m kind of applying this in real time to other scenarios, so if I get this wrong forgive me — but don’t we ask a lot of disabled people to make up the shortfall to be less disabled?

And when you go out into the built world — and again I’m going to make it in terms of physical disability — if you have mobility issues, the physical world has done a lot to make mobility issues less of an issue. There are accessibility laws: ramps, lifts… things are put in place because people realize that not every single person has the same mobility.

Even if you’re a perfectly physically healthy specimen, as you age your mobility and your physical attributes will diminish.

But we don’t make any of those accommodations for cognitive differences. We’re all expected to understand the world in the same way. It’s presented in exactly the same way. The information is— sometimes I am presented information and I’m like, “I am not sure what you’re telling me here. I’m going to have to do some mental maths.”

And I’m thinking, why do we make the world so difficult? We’ve got children in the world. Not everything is for a child, but if you made it mandatory that all public notices have to be at a reading age of 12, how simple would things be?

And you could say, “Oh, that’s dumbing down society.” Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s reducing the cognitive load for everyone. You know, it’s not just simple for simplistic sake. It’s like: we’re all busy, we’ve all got a life, and there are some of us who are struggling with a little bit more than everybody else. So why don’t we just be kind to everyone?

It’s not just about— and this is the other thing — it’s like this inherent fairness. “Well, it’s not fair because it’s not the same for everyone.” It’s like: yeah. That’s right. You identified it. It is not fair. That’s why equity and equality are completely different things.

Hannah:  Hmmm.

Stuart: And when you can explain that to someone and they get it, you can suddenly say to them: “And that’s why I’m going to be using AI.” Or, if you think that I’m using AI to make up for whatever — I am. Yes, I am. But it’s to aid communication. It’s not to reduce the quality.

Hannah: Yeah. Just to get me onto a level playing field where I’m not spending an hour writing an email that it would take somebody else five minutes to write.

Stuart: And I think we’re in the early days of large language models and generative AI as it is at the moment. Once these systems have learned your tone, your intonation, they can make you sound like a better version of yourself. And who doesn’t want to turn up as a better person? 

Hannah: Always room for improvement with me, Stuart.

Stuart: Exactly. Um, it’s a little bit like… I wear glasses, you wear glasses.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: I don’t not wear glasses and then squint my way through the day. And nobody says, “Oh Stuart, you’re wearing glasses. You’ve got shit eyes.”

Hannah: “You’ve got an advantage.”

Stuart: Yes — where’s your advantage?  And what’s to stop you having them as binoculars and then you’ll be able to see more than me?

But the authenticity piece is I’m not doing it to mask shortfalls in my personality. What I’m doing is ensuring that my needs are met with clarity.

If that makes sense. It’s like: I know that there are some things — some inherent mental shortcuts and shortcomings — which will confuse other people. And by using AI to prevent those miscommunications, I’m better able to both work in my business and get my needs met. So I’m going to be using it, and I’m going to continue to use it. Yeah.

Hannah:  But that’s the point, isn’t it? I’m not putting into it, “Please make me sound like a 20-year-old boy that likes football.” I’m not turning myself into somebody else. I’m writing a ridiculously long email and then eventually I’m second-guessing that and thinking, “Oh crap.” And then I’m sticking it into AI and saying, “Can you just lift out the really important points in this, please?”

Stuart: It’s like having your own personal PA, isn’t it?

Hannah: It literally is.

Stuart: “Here’s a draft — edit it for me.”

Hannah: Here’s a draft. Edit it for me because I just don’t know how to do that. That part of my brain does not work at the moment.

Um, I suppose what we could be asking ourselves is: who are we masking for when we use AI? You know, what do we— I mean, we’ve just kind of established really that we’re not… I don’t think that we are using AI to mask so much as—

Stuart: Oh well, I think you’re actually touching on quite an important point here. I think masking is entirely hiding yourself. It’s literally putting on a personality type, a style — and it’s usually a grab bag of things like, you know, one of your favorite actors, a few catchphrases, your go-tos. These are safe. “Oh, that’s an anecdote. I can tell again.”

That got a laugh last time. That got a laugh last time. Yeah. Exactly. So… what you’re doing is you’re using it as a filter—

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: —and a support system, to make up for the blind spots or the energy drop. And you think to yourself: that’s the difference between using something which is supporting you, and then using it to mask you.

It’s like: I wasn’t going to use AI to put on a complete mask. But using it to go, “I’m really tired and I don’t have the spoons to deal with this person’s situation or their energy at the current time,” and you just go to AI and you’re like, “This is what it is. This is what I need. Draft a response to this and tell them blah blah blah.”

Hannah:  Yeah. Absolutely that. And I think there definitely is an element of kind of neurotypical expectation that I’m also using AI for because, you know, in the professional world it’s expected that I won’t give my life story on an email, or I won’t share my innermost secrets in a proposal to a new potential client.

And although I’m very proud of who I am, and I love who I am, and I’m fully accepting of the way that I think and all of that wonderful stuff… I also know that it is a disadvantage if I’m too much Hannah in some situations.

Stuart: Well, you think about it: neurotypicals are using it in exactly the same way to get exactly the same end results — to sound more professional, to give them an advantage. Yeah. Quicker speed, more… you know, I kind of use it as a brainstorming partner.

Hannah: It’s brilliant as just bouncing ideas off. Great for that.

Stuart:  And it doesn’t argue with you. I do like the way it’s a bit of a sycophant. “Oh yeah, that’s a great idea. What a great way of thinking of it.”

Hannah: Yesterday I was doing something — just bouncing some ideas on this website—for this website, and it gave me something and I said, “That’s completely wrong,” and I’m quite rude to it. I talk to it like it’s annoying— I typed: “Why are you repeating yourself? That is completely wrong. Why have you just given me that back?” And then you get this really slightly grovelly: “Oh yes, Hannah. Good, good save, Hannah. Well spotted.” I really appreciate you. 

And I just thought: that’s your flipping job, my friend. But my point being: it isn’t perfect. If you use AI as in “Write me a blog about football,” then no — that’s not the way to use AI. If you’re using AI to bounce ideas, to make things sound more succinct, to problem solve… there are so many — and that’s, you know, another episode — but there’s so many incredible ways to use it. But yeah, you’re not just saying, “Put me a proposal together for somebody.”

Stuart: I told NotebookLM today that it was crap. I asked it point blank: “Why are you crap? Why do I hate you so much?” It came back with the classic answer of insufficient parameters.

Hannah: Oh, way to sidestep that.

Stuart: Yeah, he dodged that little— yeah, idiot. But you’re 100% right. You know, it’s not there to obfuscate and basically hide the truth. It’s there to support, encourage, and improve.

And I do— you know what? People are like, “Oh, you’ve used AI on this.” There’s a lot of this on Reddit at the moment. “Oh well done, you used AI to write that.”

And a few times I’ve seen it in forums which are neurodiverse, and somebody’s going, “Oh, you’ve used AI,” and they’ve gone, “Yes, because I have trouble with dyslexia, or I have trouble putting my thoughts in a logical sequence, and I put my thoughts into AI and got it to write blah blah blah.”

I don’t really care, you know. If it’s like a bot, probably… how do you tell that in an anonymous forum whether it’s a bot or a human? You know, whatever. I kind of see it as: in some of these instances, we’re using AI as a kind of translator between the ND and the NT world.

That’s exactly what it is. Yeah. It is like having your own Babel fish that can translate your particular… wherever you are with your energy, with your mind, with your burnout, with your overwhelm, with your cognitive load, with the day as it is… and still turn up your best self every single time. Especially if you can train like a generative agent to learn your voice and become really proficient in knowing your tone and what you do.

Hannah: Yeah. And you know, I do the social media — or we both do really — but when I’m doing my bit for the social media for the Oddcast, I know the format that I want to do the posts. So, you know, I have the same format for the posts because people like that consistency, and also I don’t have the hours in the day to go off-piste every time.

And AI is magnificent for creating formats that you can keep repeating.

Stuart: It’s a great editor. It’s a great editor to have because you can tell that editor: make it happier, make it more professional, change the tone, make it shorter.

I use AI in my writing not for idea generation — in other words, like you say, don’t “write a blog post on X, Y, Z” — but I might use it to go, “Give me 10 ideas for a blog post on this.”

And 90% of the time I’ve already got like a half proto-idea with some notes, and I’m looking for a hook to hang it on, if that makes sense. And it will give you 10 varieties of hooks with different tones and angles and what have you. And one will go, “Oh, that’s it. Yes.”

And how is that any different than sitting in a room full of writers and going, “I’ve got these ideas and I need to hang it together on an idea. What can we do around this topic?” and kicking it around and working in a small team — i.e. there’s four of us. Um, not everybody is available at all times to bounce ideas off you. So having that, that you can quickly go to and say, “Give me some ideas.” Oh — game changer.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as with all these things really, it’s only as good as the stuff you put into it. Okay.

Stuart: I will also caveat this with: I have no problem putting on our website what was generated with AI and what wasn’t, because 99.9% of the stuff on our website is genuinely created by us, and anything that is not, I flag what was done with the AI — because I want people to trust our content.

And we’re going to get into a period in time where people will be suspicious of everything they read online unless they believe that a human has filtered it for truth, sense, you know, all of that kind of stuff.

And I want our audience to go: I’m reading the thoughts of Stuart and Hannah — not I’m reading the thoughts of an AI that Stuart’s just done a quick pass through and then put his name on the bottom. That’s about a million miles from where I want.

So with all of our podcasts and our content on the website, I will try and put a little humorous thing about what was AI and what was human. And I will guarantee you that AI is useful for “Give me the facts around this” and summarizing something.

You know, I’m not going to go and do a load of research and summarize a 19th-century German field marshal’s thoughts… but if I can get AI to quickly give me what he said and what he actually meant, I’m going to use that, and I will tell people I’ve used it as a research tool.

Hannah: Yeah. It’s no different to spending hours on Google doing it yourself, other than you’ve got some spoons left at the end of it because AI has done it for you.

Stuart: I think the key for me is to make sure that I’m using the tool both responsibly and ethically. I think we have a duty to our audience to let them know: what did the machine do and what did a human do?

But we’ve also got a duty to ourselves to preserve our energy for, let’s face it, all this free content that we are sharing with people. And if you don’t like it, you know, you can ask for a refund.

Hannah: So I guess that brings us really to the next question: I wonder what do you think, Stu, the emotional risk of a kind of over-reliance — not over-reliant, but if somebody were to become over-reliant on AI — what is the risk of that? The emotional risk of that?

Stuart: Well, they have spoken about “AI psychosis” now. I’ve not done a deep dive into this — I’ve glossed over a couple of articles — but effectively people who believe everything that the AI is telling them, whether it’s hallucinating or not… it’s just reinforcing an echo chamber of their own opinions and ideas. I think that’s very dangerous.

But it’s a little bit like satnavs. Do you remember in the early days of satnavs — and in fact locally there is still a sign up which says, “Stop. Turn around. Go back. Your satnav is wrong.”

There were people who would end up on a beach or in weird places because they followed the satnav without mindfully… switched off their brain and just let the machine do all of the thinking. And I think that’s dangerous.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Stuart: I mean, if I ask AI for anything and it comes back with strong assertion about something, I will go and fact check it, uh, because while it is a shortcut to end results, it’s not an excuse to be lazy.

Hannah: No, absolutely. And also what if it’s becoming, for somebody, a kind of false representation of themselves? It’s a bit like if you’re on a dating app and you’ve put your hottest 25-year-old version of yourself on there… and then the time comes where you’ve got to go and meet Diane in reality and you’re like, “Ooh, okay.”

Stuart: Yeah. If you’ve created — and I would strongly advise you not to do this — we’ve outlined loads of the benefits of the way we can use AI — but if you’ve created a totally pretend version that’s not true to yourself at all… then at some point, you know, what happens if somebody whips it away from you? There would be a lot of anxiety around that.

Especially in a business sense — relying on this pretend version that you’ve created via ChatGPT of yourself — and suddenly you’re on an online meeting where they’re throwing questions at you. You can’t quickly tap that into ChatGPT.

Well, I think this is going to be the death of Tinder.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Because everyone’s going to have AI-touched-up photographs and profiles that AI has written. They look very different in the flesh, and the AI bots are going to be picking each other. You know: “Oh look, these are the 10 people who most meet your general requirements.”

It’s like: dude, let’s just let the machines mate and go down the pub and have a proper conversation.

Hannah: I wonder also — little brain fart coming out here — I wonder if you could start not trusting your own intuition. You know, if you were relying too heavily on AI, then maybe you forget how good you are at something, because you’ve decided that actually maybe AI does it a bit better.

You know, if people are going down that route: don’t let it remove your soul and all your capability. It’s not doing it better than you. Or certainly if you’re using it in the way that I do, it’s not replacing the work that you do — it’s just making things a bit easier or making some tasks more manageable.

But yeah: don’t recreate a V3 of yourself in AI.

Stuart: The way I think of it is: it’s a tool to do a job. Okay. Good, bad, indifferent. How it’s programmed is a conversation for another day. And how it impacts creative and others. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m not going to go down that rabbit hole right here, right now.

But if you are using it in a way which is: everything — you throw everything into AI — and you just regurgitate everything back out of AI… good outcomes are not going to happen there.

Hannah: No, you’re erasing yourself at that point, aren’t you? You’re becoming a version of you that is not authentic. And you see, that’s the difference between the masking and the using AI: I’m not advocating for people to hide their true selves, but sometimes for your own safety, your own sanity, and your own energy levels… sometimes you need to use a tool to get the job done so that you can turn up doing the other things that you need to do in the other parts of your life.

Stuart: Yeah. Self-preservation.

Hannah: I guess… yeah. Yeah. I guess what we’re trying to say really is that if you’re using it, you’re using it intentionally rather than automatically. Not everything’s getting chucked into it — but actually you’re being… what’s the word? You’re being intentional about the way you use it. You’re not just replacing yourself with some kind of bot.

Stuart: It’s the same as speaking and having a conversation with somebody who has read a book, and having that conversation with somebody who read a summary of the book. They may very well be able to hold a conversation about the topics, but they just won’t have the same deep dive and emotional connection with various parts of the book that you know.

So yes, they’ve got a high-level understanding and a learning of that book, but it’s completely different to having read the book in its entirety — or watched the film of the book, you know.

The amount of times Jem’s read a book and we watch the film and you go, “Ah, they messed it up. They didn’t have this bit. They didn’t explore the relationship between so-and-so and such-and-such. They changed the ending a bit.” And you’re a bit like, “Oh, I want to read the book now,” but I want to read the book having not learned the story, because now I’m just reading the differences, not reading the story.

Hannah: Yeah.

I mean, here’s the thing as well. We’ve learned in previous podcasts how we’re constantly told to be consistent in business, and the reality is for a lot of us, we’re not turning up as the same version of ourselves. So on the days when I’m not my best awesome Hannah and yet I’ve still got to produce the best awesome Hannah work… then obviously I’m creating buffer days around my energy and stuff, so hopefully only rocking up as my best awesome self… but that’s not always reality.

Then that’s where AI can be helpful — you know, it’s stepping in as a kind of slight support network. You know, a little right-hand man or woman or other help… anything that can lighten the load. It’s just a helping hand. A delegation. Oh, look at me going back to last week.

Stuart:  I was going to say: we did, we never stop on that. Last week. Go and check it out.

Um, I think humans are much better when they apply a little bit of situational awareness. Will this— because me and you, we’ve got mutual contacts, and sometimes the emails that you get which are newsletters and whatever… and you’re like: why did you use AI? Why didn’t you just— you’ve used it to shortcut the time thing, but you haven’t used it to increase your authenticity with me.

And I’d much rather have an imperfect short email that says, “This week it’s been absolutely flat out, so it’s a short email.” I would be much more respectful of that than a load of waffle that you can see all the hyphens and the elongated… yeah, the elongated hyphens, and the hallmarks of the M-dash. I hate an M-dash mash.

Hannah: They’re very trendy at the moment, aren’t they? But maybe it’s a bit like if you’re talking to the PA and not the boss person. You know, I want to talk to the… if you haven’t got the time to send me an email even if it’s just like, “I hope you had a good week,” or whatever… and actually you’ve created some kind of time-saving rubbish… it does remove that authenticity.

I mean, here’s a bit of an example of an AI thing gone wrong. So one of my clients was putting together a short bit of copy to go into an exhibition magazine and she’d AI’d it. She said, “I’m not very good at writing this stuff. This is what ChatGPT gave to me.”

And it was pretty good. But I said, “Okay, it’s not remembered that the people reading this are your potential clients, right? So that needs to change. It’s also not in your tone at all. It sounds nothing like your website. It sounds nothing like you. And AI has created something that’s very business-speak-y, corporate, and almost impersonal.”

Stuart: Completely impersonal.

Hannah: So I then rewrote it— rewrote it, yeah, that’s a word. My god, it’s been a long day. Hannah.

Stuart: Let’s just check Chat GPT.

Hannah: Rewrote. Um — I then edited it, went through it, proofread it, completely changed it. But actually, it did work as quite a nice structure — you know, a little… sometimes the scaffolding’s there, which takes the cognitive load off.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: Sorry, I totally interrupted. It was a good starting point, wasn’t it? And actually it made her feel like she’d contributed a bit, and then I wrote it my way and gave it back to her and it was great.

But had she not had me — and she said, “This sounds very AI, what can you do to it?” — had she not had somebody with that experience, then it would have gone out into the world as something that was nothing like her business.

No one would have died as a result of it. But it’s just… yeah, that’s my point. If you’re relying on it like that, and you’re not checking it with somebody that knows a bit more… do you know what I’m saying?

Stuart:  Oh, well, this completely goes back to what we were talking about: delegation last week. Because if you’re using AI to delegate the task, how well you use that tool will be reflected back in the output. Garbage in, garbage out.

So maybe you do need a human for the more creative aspects of this.

Um, I have used AI to generate a blog. I was not at all happy with the outcome. It just felt hollow. I have a particular way of writing — my style has developed over the years — I’m quite humorous. And when you’re reading something back and you’re like, “Oh, I made a joke there,” “Oh, there’s a missed opportunity there”… it just feels hollow and empty and… soulless. The animated corpse of my writing was flopping around in front of me — like a Frankensteinian version of me — like, “Oh no, terrible.”

So… and I actually enjoy my writing. I enjoy… it’s sometimes a bit like grabbing hold of a wild horse. The hyperfocus — you know, the other day I wrote a blog post and shared it with you and it was best part of 3,000 words poured out of me in about an hour flat. Like, you try typing for an hour of creative writing, you know, and I thought it was pretty damn good.

Hannah: I can second that. It was very good. And I actually enjoy the process. So why would I outsource that?

Stuart: But by the same token, I then had to answer three fairly technical emails with a customer and my brain wasn’t in the brain space it needed to be. And so I was able to draft enough into ChatGPT that it gave me a sensible professional response, which I just topped and tailed with my own kind of unique… kind of spicy.

And I’m almost telling customers now, “Look, I’ve asked ChatGPT to make this as simple as possible — here’s what it says — and I can sign off on this.” And I haven’t had anyone come back to me and say, “That’s absolutely terrible that you’re using AI.”

And if I did, I’d be like: well, you know… you wanted a timely response. If you wanted me to do this with my own energy and my own words, it’s going to be a day or two.

Yeah. Extra money, that’ll stop them complaining. I mean, that’s the point, right? Your clients — our clients — want the best work. So, however we get to that point shouldn’t really be relevant, should it? If we’re delivering it.

I mean, I’m not suggesting — we’ve said it already — we’re not saying create rubbish. But the point being: why would anybody say, “Oh, Stuart, I can see that you’ve given me a nice succinct email there and you might have done it in ChatGPT — would they complain about that?” I don’t know.

Hannah: I think for a lot of my customers, they’re so busy they’d read the answer and they wouldn’t even think about, “Oh, does she use ChatGPT?” or whatever. I think that for us, we are detail people.

Stuart: That’s what we do. We spend all day, every day getting to the nub of what the problem is — problem solving — which is all about detail. They say, “Oh, the devil’s in the detail.” No: the answer is in the detail. You just got to get into enough detail to find the right answer.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: So I think this kind of segues really nicely into the final point, which is that we maybe need to redefine what authenticity is in a tech-orientated, tech-supported world.

Think of this in terms of Stephen Hawking. He was somebody for whom technology gave a lifeline — a literal lifeline. Somebody who was living a life in his brain and his body had failed him, but he had a communication tool with the outside world. And years later technology got better — obviously it improved — his voice system got better.

But they said to him, “Would you like us to change your voice? Would you like us to make it less robotic, more human?” He said, “No, no — that’s my voice.” And that’s the point: he felt that that was his authentic way of communicating. If he changed it now, he would have to learn what he sounded like. Imagine waking up tomorrow and you sounded completely different. It would feel genuinely weird.

Hannah: Yes. Oh yeah. Really weird.

Stuart: So I kind of get it: the technology should be there to underpin and support— not overtake and replace.

Hannah: Yeah. It’s not cancelling who we are, is it?

Stuart: No.  And we all use technology every single day. Glasses, clothes, food, driving, houses. There isn’t an element of what is around you right now which isn’t an aspect of technology. We have completely replaced our natural environments with technology-led environments which support better human outcomes. You know, who doesn’t like having a warm house when they get up in the morning.

Hannah: I like that.

Stuart: Yeah, exactly. And we found that was better than having to stoke a fire and cut down firewood and do all the rest of it.

Hannah: We’ve evolved.

Stuart: We have evolved. And I think that we are in the early stages of figuring this stuff out. And having been through figuring out what DVDs were, figuring out what the internet was, figuring out what mobile phones were… humans will be endlessly creative, and they will figure out how to use AI so that it works for us and doesn’t just end up being a complete crutch that everybody uses blanketly all the time because, hey, you know, that’s not a good way of living.

Hannah: No, it isn’t. And you probably… people will find — if they haven’t already — you’ll be using it for the stuff that doesn’t come naturally. You know, people don’t employ me or become my clients because I’m great at sending emails. That’s not the service they’re getting from me.

So if I get some help writing my emails, then they don’t care because they’re buying strategy and copywriting and all of that stuff from me. They’re not doing it based on whether I can send a good email or not.

So yeah — it’s not a lie, is it? You’re not living a lie.

Stuart: No. And to be fair, our guys who supply our servers and manage our servers for us, they use an AI on the first line of support. So you’ll send your support ticket in and within two or three minutes you’ll get an AI response.

Now initially I was a bit like, “Oh, that’s a bit lazy.” But actually, the last two times I’ve used it… well, the last time I used it, the AI was wrong. And I did point this out. I said, “This is a training moment.”

But the two times previously it found the right support article and gave me a link and I clicked it and it solved my problem. And I guess… yes, I could have asked a human and a human could have done the same…

But I want speed. I want the resolution. Even if I have to read an article and apply that myself. Having that immediately is much more value to me than having a human come back to me in an hour’s time—or sitting in a chat queue waiting for them to answer you, because you can’t really do anything else because your brain’s just like spinning a cursor.

So I think there are fantastic applications. I think there are some wonderful ways that it can be used. But it shouldn’t supplant and suppress — it should enhance and create opportunities, so that your brain isn’t completely frazzled. It can delegate stuff out to ChatGPT or whatever LLM you’re using.

Hannah: Yeah, I like that.

Stuart: I mean, that’s any technology, isn’t it? It should be used to support rather than surpass and replace.

Hannah: Yeah. I mean, exactly that. If I’m using — as I regularly do — one of my multiple list-creating apps, you know, seem to be collecting them… no one’s saying, “Oh, look at you cheating, getting your list together.” “Look at you using a phone to remember the things”.

Stuart: Look at you using a calendar so you turn up on time. I mean that’s the point, isn’t it? That is the point.

I suppose we all use the tools that we need to make our lives easier, more efficient, you know, better for us. The other thing with humans is — and I’ve seen this so many times — there will be an overuse of a new piece of technology and it will get to a ridiculous point. Everyone will recognise that, but there’ll be a few hand-wringers who will run around with their hair on fire going, “Oh my god, this is terrible. Think of the children,” about whatever it is that they’re passionate about.

And it’s like: yeah, but you’re going to throw the baby out with the bathwater here, because there’s a lot of good that is being done for people in areas where this technology is being used in a productive way.

Just because it can also be twisted by humans to be used in an unproductive way or a harmful way doesn’t mean to say it needs to be banned or regulated.

Hannah: Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen it on LinkedIn — everybody was going through a phase of clearly using it to write their posts and it started to churn out… everyone was churning out the same beige rubbish. And now you see people coming and posting like, “Oh, it’s really annoying that everyone’s using AI…” So actually, like you said, there is a backlash.

Stuart: Yeah. It’s going round and now people are actually pushing for the authenticity of not using it to write your posts from scratch. It’s got a button right at the bottom. It says, “Would you like AI to rewrite this post?” And I’m  like, “No, I think you’ll find that it’s perfect.”

Very happy with it, thank you very much. I feel slightly RSD at that, actually.

Hannah:Yeah. What are you saying?

Stuart: Yeah. Why don’t you like my writing?

So we’ve discussed a lot around AI — how it can be used and useful, and how it can be overused and unuseful. Um, we’d be great to hear any of your comments, thoughts, feedback. Are you using AI? If you’re using AI, maybe you’re using it in a way we could use ourselves — that would be quite useful.

So, if you’ve got any stories, resources, tips, hints, feedback — do let us know.

Hannah: Um, Stuart — takeaways? Got any takeaways for the Odd Squad?

Stuart; Support should reduce the pressure on you, right? Not create new expectations or make you start to feel paranoid that in your entire life you’re not as good as when you’re living your best life through ChatGPT.

Hannah: And also masking is completely acceptable. It’s a huge part of what we all need to do. There’s no shame around that. And it’s about survival — it’s not about dishonesty. It’s the way that we survive in a world where we’re not pointing in the same direction as the majority.

Stuart: It’s a crazy world and it’s tough at the best of times, and then you add into it all of the rest of the stuff. If you can take some small advantage — take it.

Hannah: Yeah. What about tips and—

Stuart: I don’t think you should question your use of a tool. It’s just a tool. Um, as I said, the ethical implications of that — not for now. But if you are fatigued by masking then it’s a great way of using it invisibly which doesn’t really harm anyone — especially if you monitor it and are measured and intentional with your application of it.

And it’s not just like you’ve said — a blanket knee-jerk: “Right, I need to go and write an email, I’ll just go straight to ChatGPT.” But you can do it in small ways: write the email, send it into ChatGPT (or whatever LLM) and ask it to shorten it, rewrite it, put more clarity in it, or improve it. Um, when you don’t have the skills to do that — good outcomes for everyone. Yeah.

And if you’re worried that the customer is going to think, “Oh, well, it’s terrible you’re using ChatGPT,” that’ll change in time because everybody else is using it. So people’s judgment will be low because they’ll be like, “Oh yeah. Well, who am I? I’m using it, so I can’t pick on Hannah because she’s using it.”

Hannah: Um, also — sorry to interrupt you there, Stuart — but if you, with your different… we’ve got a lot of overlapping skill sets, but we’ve also got some differing ones too. If you and I were given the same task and we both went to ChatGPT, we would get completely different responses because you would put in a lot of different prompts than I would.

So it isn’t that, well, then anybody can be a copywriter now that we’ve got ChatGPT. Well, it doesn’t work like that. Anybody can be a strategist. It doesn’t work like that. We’ve covered it already. But you know, it’s what you put in. You put rubbish in, you get rubbish out.

And when you get the response coming back — if you’re anything like me — you then have to keep putting in more and more prompts until you finally tune this beautiful thing that you’re creating. In reality, sometimes it probably takes longer that way than actually just doing it. But sometimes it’s the process we need to go through — keep the momentum going.

Stuart: It’s like having a writing partner or a productivity partner that is able to make up for the shortcomings for whatever reason. And there’s no judgment there at that particular moment. And it gives you some mental clarity because if it comes back and you’re reading it and going, “That’s not quite right,” well, that’s your judgment. That’s what you’re being paid for.

Ultimately, don’t sweat tweaks and changes and all the rest of it. If it’s helping you to achieve the big overall goal of whatever it is the customer has asked you to do — you’re delivering it.

Hannah: But you summed it up right there. They’re asking you to achieve an end result, not write perfect emails.

Stuart: So, you know, don’t feel any pressure to sound perfect. Because actually a lot of the time we’re all imperfect and we’re just trying to get by in the day as best we can and achieve the results that we can.

And then you add on top of that: “Is it masking or is it this?” Oh, get over yourselves. I just haven’t got time to get into all of that. It’s a tool. I’ve used it. It did a good job at the things I’ve asked it to do. I’ve got to monitor my use of it because it’s not a blanket thing. No.

But I will be using it again in future.

Hannah:  Yeah. And it’s not giving us an advantage — it’s probably putting us on a level playing field, to be honest with you. We’re literally just… yeah. 

Stuart: My god. If I went on an AI, an LLM, and the next week I was as rich as any of the billionaires in the world — then yeah, fair play.

But actually, when it’s just helping you draft an email — get over yourself. It’s an email.

Hannah: Just helping you talk.

Stuart: Yeah. It’s helped me function because my brain for today is just listening to one song over and over and over and over again, and I’m waiting for a parcel which has not turned up and I can’t think of anything else. So, you know, cut me some slack.

The fact that I’m actually sat still — not pacing up and down — because I’ve got a bee in my head.

Hannah: Can I go off on a tangent that might get edited out later?

Stuart: Go.

Hannah: So I was at a family event over Christmas and the topic of the fact that I have a blue badge for my parking because of various disability things going on 

Stuart: — mobility needs. 

Hannah: Yeah, that’s the right words, Stu.

Um, I could hear them — and no disrespect to them, they’re my awesome family — but I could hear them chatting, and one of them is like, “Oh my goodness, that’s amazing. So she can park really close to the— and she doesn’t have to pay for parking. I can’t believe it. Oh wow.” And then one of the other ones like, “Yeah, I know. They’re incredible. Like, wouldn’t you want one?”

And then one of my fabulous sister-in-laws said, “Yeah, I think Hannah would probably just prefer to not need one, to be honest.”

And I called over from my corner: “Yeah — the only thing better than a blue badge is having a body that works properly, right?”

And they were all like… you could see them all go, “Oh. Oh yeah.”

Stuart: It’s not a privilege.

Hannah: Yeah. It’s not… I’ve not got an advantage. I can’t walk as far as the people, you know what I mean?

Stuart: We’ve said this before and we will no doubt say it again: equity is not equality. Equity of outcome is about giving people what they need to get through their day.

And if that means noise-cancelling headphones and dark glasses — that’s not a privilege. That’s just preventing them from killing you—

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: —everyone around them and then themselves.

Hannah: Everyone’s a winner.

Stuart: Yeah. So think about that the next time you’re saying that somebody doesn’t need noise-cancelling headphones. Just think about them running riot in the yoga aisle in ASDA and think how bad that could actually get.

Hannah: I like that.

Stuart: So, on that note… on that bombshell… thank you for listening to another business podcast. If you’ve liked what you’ve heard, leave a comment, share it with friends, get in touch: [hosts@businesspodcast.com](mailto:hosts@businesspodcast.com) — or just go to businesspodcast.com and send us a message through the website form there — or join up to our mailing list, where we will send out sporadic and inconsistent emails to you to remind you that we’re doing this once a week.

But it drops on a Wednesday morning — just set a reminder to go to your favorite podcasting platform: Apple, Spotify… other podcasts are available… or just go to businesspodcast.com and find the latest episodes there.

So Hannah — that’s it for the business podcast this week, and all we need to do now is to find out what the topic is for next week. What’s the topic of the week next week? Topic of the week, episode 26.

Hannah: I know. I know. We are steaming ahead. So the topic 26 is called “Running on Empty: How ND Works” — we’re taking a deep dive into that. So I’m going to have to— or the lack of energy. I’m going to have to troll through the trauma and the lack of energy?

There’s going to be a lot of crying, people lying flat. I might have to do it in my dressing gown.

Stuart: Yes, we could do it in pyjamas. Pyjamas. And ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the trauma. Pull up a chair.

Hannah: What if the irony — if we didn’t have the energy to do the episode?

Stuart: Well, we use AI. It’s just empty space. AI talking: “Hello, Hannah. I am your—”

Hannah: —couple of cardboard people… and just like, “Oh gosh, that’s so good.”

Stuart: Well, ladies and gentlemen, we may be here next week. We may not. No, we will definitely be here discussing “Running on Empty” and energy needs of the neurodiverse. Thank you very much for listening. I’ve been your host Stuart Morrison. Goodbye.

Hannah: Bye

Delegation for Control Freaks (and the Overwhelmed)

Delegation sounds sensible in theory… and absolutely terrifying in practice — especially when control has been your survival strategy for years. In this episode, we get honest about why the “just outsource it” advice can feel like being asked to hand something precious to someone who might burn it.

We unpack perfectionism, fear of things being done wrong, the anxiety of not hearing updates, and the hidden mental load of trying to hold everything in your head — in business and at home. We talk trust, tolerances (80% is sometimes the win), how to brief clearly, why delegation isn’t abdication, and how to build systems that make handing things over feel safer.

If you’re exhausted from doing everything yourself but terrified of letting go, this is your permission slip to delegate gently — starting with the least emotionally loaded task — and keep your energy intact.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to the Show
00:01:46 – Topic of the Week: Delegation for Control Freaks (and the Overwhelmed)
00:03:42 – Why you need to learn this skill & reasons why it can feel difficult
00:06:08 – Our attitudes to delegating – don’t… Thank you for listening…
00:06:50 – The need for control can be overwhelming
00:07:40 – Being an “outcome freak” when you have no control, start with trust
00:10:15 – Delegation is not a “one and done” moment
00:11:40 – Hannah’s delegation experiences and previous struggles with control
00:14:10 – Control as a survival strategy and the bad outcomes from not delegating
00:15:31 – Coping with delegation anxiety and realising YOU CANNOT DO IT ALL
00:18:15 – The mental load of doing it all , and positives of delegating
00:19:00 – Perfectionism, expectation management & tolerances key tools in delegation
00:22:52 – Confession time – the “fresh hell” of Stuart’s file naming convention
00:27:05 – The cognative load of doing it yourself… Burnout? Overwhelm?
00:30:02 – Ensuring responsbility is also communicated to reduce worry
00:31:01 – Delegating to more experienced providers is a learned behaviour
00:31:55 – RSD and the fear of rejection, and spinning your wheels
00:34:10 – The trap of “I might as well do it myself and save having to fix YOUR errors”
00:36:20 – Why you need a mentor, learning from their mistakes
00:37:10 – Delegation is not abdication of responsbility
00:38:27 – Is delegating a life skill that improves dishwasher loading?
00:40:13 – Is this the best spend of my time? The ONLY question to grow your business
00:42:25 – When delegation goes wrong and lessons learned to help get it right
00:46:45 – Delegation (and boundaries) is self-preservation helps you preserve energy
00:47:56 – No one needs an emergency patio…
00:49:12 – Often failure to communicate is just “hoarding control”
00:50:45 – Hannah on being a team player, and choreographer, NOT!
00:52:58 – Creativity is a dance, not a lesson in dicatorship
00:54:00 – Defining success… Control vs capacity
00:57:19 – What are the key takeaways? Ask for help. ASK US FOR HELP!
00:59:14 – Stu’s delegation tips – clarity of & detail in communication is key
01:03:01 – Next Week’s Topic – Is Using A.I. The Ultimate in ND Masking?
01:04:30 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

https://here2help.uk/further-information/ – Fab resource and amazing organisation raising awareness and support for autistic suicide prevention. 
Information regarding Alexythimia and other helpful autism and autistic related factsheets on the link.

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

Stuart: Hello and welcome to another business podcast. I am your host Stuart Morrison and this is my co-host.

Hannah: Hannah Logan.

Stuart: Fantastic. Hannah, episode 24. Do you think we’d ever make 24?

Hannah: Just no. It was like a dream, wasn’t it, Stuart? Like it looks so far away and yet here we are.

Stuart: Top 1% of podcasts.

Hannah: We’re basically absolutely awesome.

Stuart: If anyone’s going, “Well, how are you measuring that?” Well, statistically speaking, 99% of podcasts never make it past episode 21, and we’re at 24. So, I consider that winning life goals. And it doesn’t feel, does it? Like, well, it’s a good sign that we really enjoy it because it doesn’t feel like we dragged ourselves to episode 24?

Hannah: Dragging ourselves along the floor, crying.

Stuart: And thank you for joining us through this journey. Thank you for joining in and sending all your best wishes, insights and thoughts. And all of the lovely things that you’ve said. Because Hannah and I, we did this to share and create a community so that you know that we understand what you’re going through. So anyone who’s given us any feedback or said anything nice or encouraging, messaged us, or in any way, shape or form given us a thumbs up.

Hannah: Yeah, thank you very much.

Stuart: We will continue. Please continue to follow us, like, subscribe and do all that lovely stuff. Anyway, Hannah, what is the topic of this week?

Hannah: Topic of the week. Right, Stuart? The topic of this week? Oh, this is one of my favorites. I know I say this every week and it annoys me as soon as I say it. But I think, you know, just when I think they can’t get better, we get to the next episode. Um and they invariably do. So..

Stuart: Constantly improving.

Hannah: Oh, always. Um so the topic this week is delegation for control freaks and the overwhelmed. So yeah.

Stuart: The horrible  and dangerous D word.

Hannah: The dangerous D word. Um so yeah. Okay. So Stuart, delegation sounds in theory like a rather sensible idea, doesn’t it? But actually I would argue that in practice it can be, for me personally, completely terrifying. And and often is for neurodivergent people in general, and people in general, no doubt. But I think we’re told, aren’t we, you can’t do everything yourself. It feels very logical, you know, just outsource it, Stuart. It’s not a problem. Just outsource it. Um, just let go and trust other people. Trust.

Stuart: Okay. That’s not had good outcomes.

Hannah: I’ve had 51 years of realising that that’s not something I’m very good at handling. There’s a reason why I do it all myself.

Stuart: There is a reason but you know so often when we try and delegate we kind of, you know, we come up and butting up against things like perfectionism, the fears of things being done wrong. Don’t do it wrong.

Hannah: Don’t do it wrong.

Stuart: Loss of control. You know, God, I could go on and on and we’re going to tap into a lot of this during this episode.

Hannah: Yes. We’re exploring delegation. And it isn’t about handing everything over, it’s about finding safer, kinder ways to stop having to do everything alone.

Stuart: I can’t wait to jump into this because it was one of the hardest lessons to learn uh when I first started being self-employed. In actual fact, the early experiences I had as self-employment nearly broke me and led me to realise you just can’t do it all on your own.

Hannah: No, you really can’t. And here’s, you know, let’s look at some of the reasons why it can feel so difficult, so hard for us folk. Um, you’ve touched on it a minute ago really, but past experiences of being misunderstood.

You know, if you’re looking to delgate. What?  I can’t speak today. Delegate!, Hannah. It’s not a hard word. Um, you know, fear of things not being done the way that we need them to be done. Um, being done incorrectly. Again, I touched on it, but loss of control. I think control for a lot of us is a real issue. And again, that will be based on, you know, past experiences of when we’ve entrusted other people or we’ve relinquished some of that control. It quite possibly ended fairly badly.

So delegation can trigger anxiety for us. Not that sense of relief that other people can get when they delegate. You know like “can you do this for me Stuart? There you go, I’ll never think about it again”.

That doesn’t happen. In fact it does sometimes. If you did something for me I’d be like “yeah” because you’re on my wavelength. But anybody else and I show it to them first in such detail.  It’s like when I’m trying to get my kids to do something. Here’s how you do the washing. And they watch me do all of it. That’s my delegatio. Watch me do it

Stuart: You know it doesn’t work like that does it. The gnoring anxiety of handing something over and you’re like I have to say to myself, as long as this is 80% of what I need it to be, I’m going to have to be happy with that. And anything over that is a bonus.

And having now worked with quite a few freelancers over the past 20 odd years, uh the ones that I still use are the ones whose judgment I trust. And ultimately, that I think is what you’re doing when you’re delegating something. You’re looking at somebody and going, “Do I trust your judgment to deliver this?” And I’m sure we’ll get into how you can get better outcomes for everybody. But when I first work with someone who I’m delegating to, oh god, I have to check in. Oh, I have to check in all the time. That gnoring anxiety of like, I haven’t heard from in three days. Surely there’s some questions. I know I would have a few. What about you? How do you feel about delegating?

Hannah: Um, Yeah, it’s a hard no for me. That’s how I feel about delegating. That’s the end of the business podcast.

Stuart: Yeah, the end. Just don’t do it. No, don’t delegate. This has been brought to you today by Hannah and Stuart and the lesson is do not touch the delegation.

So we talked about, we touched on control. So I think for most people when they hear the word control, it gives negative connotations. You know, it’s a kind of “oh, they’re a control freak” It means you’re a nightmare, and all of this kind of stuff. But we, or I can’t speak for the entire neurodiverse fraternity, but we use it as a survival strategy, right?

Hannah: Yeah, It isn’t a kind of “I need to be in charge because I’m the best, although sometimes I am”. Um but actually it’s a survival strategy because it’s kept me safe in the past, you know. I mean, how do you feel about that control? I think you’re probably less of a control freak than I am. Bit better seasoned at reigning it in.

Stuart: I’m a bit of an outcome freak, and that’s harder in its own way.I mean, there’s nothing easy about handing and delegating to somebody if you’re not 100% sure that the process they’re going to follow is going to give you good outcomes. That’s why I think working with small businesses can be challenging because you have no metric of quality and to a certain extent you’re learning how to work with each other.

Like the process of doing the podcast. I started from a position of trust and that has been rewarded. Rather than starting from a position of huge skepticism and massive micromanagement which doesn’t lead to good outcomes. I’d rather somebody failed and then we both as reasonable humans analyzed why the failure occurred. Was it a failure in communication? Was it a failure in the process? Was it a failure to understand what the actual task was, not the jobs that we get? Do you know what I mean? There’s so much that can come out of a failure that you can use to but it will depend on the other person’s uh willingness to own their half of it.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And I find that makes a big difference and I’m very much willing if a customer delegates something to me to learn from my mistake and say to them if that wasn’t how you wanted it how do we provide that information in a way which gives you what you want.

I mean, just before this we were talking about snagging lists with websites. I use a fairly straightforward simple process with a spreadsheet. Over the many many years of doing it it has proven to be the simplest, easiest and quickest way for the customer to communicate what they want changed.

And it gives me 90% of the clarity I need and the extra 10% if I just need to go back and say to them, could you just talk about this? Could you just explain that a bit more? They’re never annoyed because it’s such a light touch and you’re working in their best interests. And I don’t have customers that are like, “well, I told you what to do”. They will take time to go, “oh no, I can see how you might, you know, not understand that”.

To the point where sometimes you have to go back to a customer and say, “How do you do this on your website?” Which seems counterintuitive, but I might be asking that because I am diagnosing something from the interface. You know, they want something changed. Well, I can change it in various ways, but how are you doing this? And then they can give me the clarity I need.

So, I think delegation isn’t just a one and done because we’ll get on to this, but I think it’s a collaborative agreement that you’ll make your best efforts to who genuinely and with goodwill and and you should be working with goodwill in business anyway, you know, with a ideally.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: So, I think delegation is one of those constructed parts of the business relationship that you get to over time with trust and the right processes and the right deadlines as well. Because then that lets somebody prioritise their time. Um, so I think those are the things that I have learned over the years, you know. Just make sure that the other person has as much information as you have. I used to get support tickets from customers and then I would parse ‘P A R S E’  parse through and translate it for my tech guys. Because sometimes customers are a little bit woolly. But in doing that I have learned very good skills at how to brief and delegate to somebody else, because I have seen all the mistakes that, I want to say lay people or people who aren’t in the web world, might make. And that is a lesson that you can use anywhere. What’s your experience with delegation?

Hannah: Well, actually, when I think of delegation, you know, I get a kind of increased heartbeat. Because I think of it as I’ve got to give something precious to somebody else and they’re going to burn it. But actually, you know, I did some work for for you recently. And it was delegation the other way round, where I was helping you with some stuff on a website. And you delivered that to me so well that it was really clear what you needed from me. And actually you did include the brief but you kind of said this is what I need you to do. You put it in this bit here, and that’s it. And it was so clear that it I got the sense that you were kind of like “that’s going to be done the way it needs to be done”, because you’d explained it so well.

So for me, if I can master that, I mean, that will be a goal right there. If I can master handing things over to people, whatever that might be, with that clarity that you gave me, then you’re kind of handing it over like, you know, don’t drop it. Feed it this, it’ll stay alive. And you can be like, “oh, I can go out now for the evening and not worry about it”. Do you know what I mean? That’s what you did. And for me it was wonderful coz I didn’t have to be like, “Oh, what about this bit? What about,” you know, it was so clear and it felt really good. It worked both ways really well.

And so, I suppose although I do really struggle with delegation, coz I’m such a perfectionist. And when I’ve said about being a perfectionist before, I sometimes get the sense that people think, “Oh, she’s saying she’s perfect.” It’s um no, it’s the opposite. It really is not saying, you know, when you go for a job interview and they’re like, “What’s your flaw?” And you’re like, “Well, I’m just so amazing.” That sometimes that’s a bit of a limitation because I’m just too good”.

You know, we’re not saying that with perfectionism, it’s that kind of, you know, where those high standards can become a trap. Because the fear of being judged or of things not being right in inverting commas. Um, the kind of ‘all or nothing’ thinking. So actually for me it feels like if I delegate something to somebody else and I relinquish that control then will it lower the standards of the output I need to achieve? Does that make sense? You know.

Stuart: Totally what you’re talking about is control as a survival strategy.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Yeah. It’s not even a personality flaw. It’s like I have to have this defense otherwise, uh, bad outcomes. Bad outcomes. You know,  “here be dragons. Stay clear”.

And I can totally understand that. I can totally align myself with that person. But early on in my uh entrepreneurial career, I tried to do everything myself. I thought to myself, if I know all the skills and I know how to do everything, then I won’t have to rely on anyone. And to a certain extent, when my daughter was born, we had a phrase which was “ga do thyself”. And that was because she just refused to relinquish to anyone that she couldn’t do something. And it’s kind of yeah, you know, the cherries don’t fall far, do they? And that’s on me. Um, but how do you step away from that kind of perfectionism and control freakery and when you know that, oh my god, if this goes badly wrong, then it’s going to go badly badly wrong. You know, how do you cope with that kind of stepping away from that mindset but reducing the anxiety?

Hannah: So, I’m not going to lie, I’m in my infancy of stepping into the waters of delegation. Um I mean, the other day my daughter managed to wash her own bed sheets. She’s very smart. She’s 21. She managed to work out what buttons to press. The machine did not implode. No one died. No duvet died in the experience. Um, and it taught me a really important lesson. Do you know what, that’s crazy that I would even be worried about that. I mean ‘worried’ is strong. I wasn’t worried and yet I thought you know she won’t do it properly or she’ll put not enough in the machine and it will, you know. You know if you put not enough in,  it becomes like a bowling ball in the machine and ruins all the calibration. Um but actually I can’t do everything.

Stuart: No, none of us can do everything.

Hannah: And I think for me, I’ve tried to do that for so long. And the reality is that, you know, now people are having to step in and do various bits in the house as well, just coz that’s how it works, doesn’t it? Otherwise, you just implode.

Stuart: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Especially when you’ve got adult children, it’s like, come on. If you were living in your own house, you would have to put the dishwasher on more than once a day. So, you know, step in, step up. And our kids are very good, actually

Hannah: I remember years ago, and I might have shared this. I don’t think I have on the podcast, but I’ve been married to my husband for 22 years, and I think it was only in the last couple of years that I discovered that he’s an incredible cook. Um, up until that point, I never allowed him any cooking. Don’t get me wrong, I let him use the pots and pans coz that would be really brutal if I wasn’t allowing him to use any of the pots. Get off. Um, I think one day I kind of just, I don’t know what, maybe I went out or something and I came back and he’d made the most incredible spaghetti bolognese and it hadn’t required me sitting on his shoulder saying “you’re cutting the onions too big”. Because that’s the level of control where I was at. And I know without going into a deep dive it’s not you know I’m not going to turn this into a therapy session but I know for me…

Stuart: Too late it’s already happened.

Hannah: I know for me that level of control was not about creating the perfect dinner. It was about needing it this way otherwise it won’t be safe. You know what I mean? It comes from a history of, a lifetime of whatever. But it’s hard because, and this leads nicely onto the kind of next next bit of topic really. there’s such a huge mental load that you carry if you’re trying to do everything yourself. Um even when the tasks are really small, trying to juggle all that stuff in your brain is exhausting. I mean, how do you kind of?…. Well, you don’t, you’ve discovered delegation, haven’t you, Stu?

Stuart: I have and it was due to over perfectionism. Um, but also sometimes you get surprising outcomes when you delegate and as long as those outcomes are quality outcomes, I don’t mean, oh my god, this is terrible. So a lot of the time I am engaging in a creative process. You know, a website to a certain extent has some creativity around it. There’s some technical bits, and what have you. And when I try and talk to the customer I talk in terms of outcomes rather than concrete deliverables because there are certain things with a low budget or with a time constraint where you haven’t got time to put in all the fall overs and the flashy bits and pieces and the SEO might have to backfill and be done at a later date. You’re deploying something at speed to a budget with all of the known variables that you have in your head. So, it’s almost expectation management at the point where the customer is contracting you.

So that when you delegate, you give the person that you’re delegating to the freedom to use their experience and judgment. Obviously, you have to trust that. But again, you know, why would you be delegating someone you don’t at least trust. Um, and then having explained the outcome that you want, let them take the quickest route for themselves, because especially if you’ve been working with somebody with years of experience, then I’m not I’m not dicking around when somebody gives me a job. I’m doing it as quickly as I possibly can with as few touches as I possibly can and going back to them as quickly as I can saying, “Is this it?” Because if I’ve in any way, shape or form got anything wrong, they can quickly course correct me.

And what I found over the years is people don’t mind you taking something back which needs a little bit of snagging or polishing or whatever, if you have set that expectation early. So when we build a website, they always say, “Oh, can we have it like four to eight weeks?” I say, “You can have the website in four to eight weeks.” We will then add four weeks of snagging because you aren’t going to be happy with absolutely 100% everything we do.

Just because you know you’ve seen it in your mind’s eye in a slightly different way and we might need to tweak things. So I think for me overcoming perfectionism is realising that there isn’t anything perfect, even if you look at something that’s highly highly polished and has spent a lot of time being delivered, like in engineering or whatever. They still have tolerances and that tolerance is saying as long as it’s between these two you know, measurements or deliverables, um, it’s acceptable. And I think yes, you can have those as really really tight tolerances, but I think if you work with good customers over the time, they you get a feeling of what they know is acceptable and and you you can be less I mean, you know, if you want to an exercise in perfectionism, sit on my shoulder and watch me trying to edit the the podcast, beating myself up that is like, why isn’t this the BBC. Why haven’t I got these to work? You know.

Hannah: One day, Stu. One day.

Stuart: One day. One day. Yes, definitely. So yeah, I think that perfectionism is almost like a milestone. You have to get there and realise nobody’s going to be able to do it as well as you. But as long as they get 80 or 90% of it, and the customer doesn’t care about the other 10%, only you are going to care about that 10%. It’s great to have those high standards. My dad was a QA guy. So, you know, standards were in the house. He had a white coat.

Hannah: Ooh.

Stuart: Yes. He had a white coat. An engineer with a white coat is a formidable thing because they will be coming up and then they’ll be inspecting your work. And so, the idea of having somebody check the work and if that is the customer, then that’s great. That’s the customer. But you build that into the relationship.

Hannah: So, confession time, Stuart. Um, my confession time. Don’t worry. I’m not going to grill you.

Stuart: I’m a bit worried.

Hannah: Um, so, when we, this taps into my perfectionism and I was proven wrong and it was a really brilliant lesson for me to be honest. So, I remember you were labeling some files that we were doing. Maybe it was scripts or I can’t remember what it was. And when I first went into that folder, I’m not going to lie, I was like, “What fresh hell is this? What fresh hell is this file naming? What is this?” And I think I said to you, “Oh, this is really confusing my brain.” The second that you explained it, it suddenly dropped into my brain like, “Oh, that’s so much better than my really simplified can never find what you need system.” So, actually, I guess it’s still sort of a delegation, but actually, you were doing your bit, I was doing my bit. You educated me via default, and I and now I’m like 100% on board with that. Whereas, when I looked at it at first my brain was like that’s not how we do it. That’s not the right way.

Stuart: I have to be able to order them alphabetically.

Hannah: Yeah. But it was genius once you explained it. But you know again this comes back to kind of my brain was set in “this is how it works” and then you introduced “well actually this is how it works best for me” and then I took on board your idea and I was like “oh yeah that that’s a better way to do it”.

Stuart: So confession it’s not my idea. It’s stolen off someone else. I literally saw somebody else doing it and I was like I’m doing that. And if you’re wondering what it is, there’s this naming convention in coding where you start a file uh with a date. Now the trouble is if you put that date in the right way round, it doesn’t matter whether you’re English or American, day, month, month, day, year. Um when you order things, it’s in the wrong order because it will do the smallest numbers first. So, you just end up with this messy out of order thing.

Now, if you do it alphabetically, again, you have no order other than the system itself remembering when you last modified it or when you last opened it and then organizing it. But if you put the date in backwards, the date of recording is the 14th of uh January 2026. So, the file for today would be 2026. Here. No space, no forward slash, no hyphen. 2026 0114. All of the months are put in two characters. So, anything lower than 10 is a zero.

Uh, and the reason that I do that is I know that that’s the definitive date for that file. Now, that might be a script. Um, so today’s script will be for today’s episode. Uh, but it will be the date that it is broadcast coz then we can order the scripts by the date that they were broadcast. And in my head when somebody showed me how to do this sort of stuff, uh I was just like I was just using an A to Z to 10 kind of filing system. But once I combined my filing system with that convention, I’ve not lost a file since. Coz nine times out of 10, you can go, oh, it was about a week ago. So you can search and yes, you can search. Oh, good luck finding files on Windows, by the way, which is a nightmare. Use a thing called Everything. Just install it. It indexes everything and it’s quick. Really quick, like like you as you’re typing, it’s showing you the files with that name. It’s amazing. Everything. Just ignore the Windows indexing. It’s.

Hannah: We’re not commissioned on this stuff, by the way.

Stuart: And it’s free. It’s free. It’s Yes. No commissions being paid. But again, you know, over the years, you find these things out from the pain of not being able to find the ruddy files.

Um, so do you think there’s a hidden mental load for doing everything yourself or is it just part of the course and you suck it up?

Hannah: So I think the hidden mental load is possibly a bit of, um, that I start to feel a bit annoyed if I’m doing everything. There’s a real risk of me tipping into martyrdom.

I know we’re talking about business here but also we’ve touched the delegation of the household chores, and just generally having to live with other humans. But yeah, I think there is a mental load as a parent, and as a person that carries a lot of this stuff in her brain.

I do find that the most stressful part of my day-to-day is that mental load of trying to remember all the different bits. The listeners will know that I’ve not had amazing health over the last year and a half, whatever it’s been. And during that time, it’s been quite magnificent in a way because I’ve had to offload all the stuff. I previously would do all of this stuff because “you’ll all mess it up”. But now I don’t have a choice. So I’m like, “Yeah, you can do that. You can do that.” And it’s amazing because I don’t have to think about how this will get done, you know? Will the cat biscuits get bought? Not my problem anymore. Thank you very much. So, you know what I mean? So, there’s definitely a mental load.

Stuart: I do think for, and this is going to be horribly sexist, some relationships, the female partner, the caregiver, does take a lot of mental load of what needs to happen and when and how that’s going to be done. I’m not saying that it’s bigger or less than the other partner. I’m just saying that running a household isn’t a net zero cognitive load. There is all that’s going on. Then you’ve got your spicy brain. Mine for some reason has been repeating the song by Ray, “Where is my husband?” on loop for two weeks. I can’t stop it. It’s like telephone background music. Just like a music version of this is interpreted in my head. And now you could laugh at that. That’s funny. Yeah, it’s hilarious. Uh, I’ve been dealing with it for years. It’s been various songs over the years, you know. But the problem with it is you can’t switch it off. And your brain is doing that whilst it’s also trying to concentrate. It’s literally like having it on in headphones in your head just over and over and over. And it could be just a section of it. And on top of that, you’ve got to get through your day and get through all the work and not make any mistakes just so I get the cognitive load thing.

If it’s not just you that you’re having to remember and this is the same in business. If you’re the boss but you’re delegating stuff to other people, if you’re not careful, then when you delegate and you hand that thing over, you need to if you do it properly, it then should become their problem. Are they hitting the deadline? Is it going to be ready in time?

Obviously, you’re overseeing it as your kind of managing the whole thing. And yet in an ideal world, you would not be worrying about whether they hit the deadline. You know, they’ve got to own that bit that you’ve delegated. It needs to be the stuff that keeps you awake at night as well, right?

Hannah: So, I  would argue that there’s a way to avoid this kind of mental load, you know, by absolutely not doing it all yourself. But I say that, like it’s an easy thing that I have not quite mastered in the last 51 years. is.

Stuart: So, um, yeah, that’s what delegation should be about. Handing the task over to someone who is way better at doing this sort of stuff. Like when I handed the copywriting over to you, I was like, if I was handed this as a project myself, I would want to know these things, and this is what I’d want. But I’d also want enough constraint around what I’m doing to know that I’m doing the right things, but enough freedom that I can use my judgment, my creativity, and do all the things that I know that this particular thing, whatever it is that I’m being asked to do, needs to be done within the budget and the time scale.

So, I do think that it is a very much learned behavior and the more you do it, yes, you’re going to mess it up to start with. Yes, there’s going to be stress to start with, but you didn’t think it was going to be easy, did you?

Hannah: Things very rarely are, Stuart, in my experience. Um, you know, let’s bring our good friend RSD into the mix of delegation.

Stuart: Yes.

Hannah: For those who don’t know, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, he’s such a good old pal of mine. I forget that not everybody understands what RSD is. I think um I’ve experienced this myself. You get given something and then, you know, for me I take on that mental load of “will they think I’m shit?” You know I’ve been given clear instructions. And there’s a little bit in the back of my brain saying, “Hannah, they wouldn’t have asked you if they didn’t think you could do this.” Um, and yet, you know, there’s still that fear of, you know, not being good enough. You know, you’re expecting, and to be fair, to date, this has never happened, but it still haunts me. You’re expecting them to go, “What? What the hell did you do, you lunatic?” And they don’t. Normally, they say, “Yeah, that’s pretty on point. Just this and that. Tweak, quick tweak here and there.” Um.

Stuart: Another analogy for you.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: So, this is how I used to deal with it. Imagine you’re in a car, race car, and you got your foot flat on the accelerator, and you’re hammering along, and you’re told to rest, and you go, “Oh, okay. I’m going to rest.” But instead of turning the engine off, getting out the car, what you decide to do is to sit in the car with your foot flat on the accelerator, but get somebody to jack it up so the wheels aren’t actually pushing you along.

I’m having a restful time. I am resting. This is resting.

I’ll be ready to go the moment they just need me. And I have done that so many times over the years that I’ve taken a break, but in my head I have not taken a break. All I have done is I’ve not even pushed pause. I have just stopped the physical manifestation of my thoughts. And that’s again not good delegation. Because it’s a similar thing when you hand the job over, you can’t have them in your head, oh my god, oh my god. I’ve got to trust the person that I’m delegating this to to do what I need them to do, which is why it can be so hard. And sometimes it can feel like, well, I might as well just do it myself. By the time I’ve explained this. By the time I’ve explained it to somebody else and they’ve done it wrong and we fixed it and I’ve done it anyway, I might as well do it myself. Has that thought occurred to you?

Hannah: Oh my god, that’s my entire life with my children. Oh, just hand it over. By the time you’ve messed it up, I’ll just do it myself. So, a few years back, and I’m confident this person won’t be listening, I was building a website and it was almost probably the final website that got me to say, “I’m never doing websites again.” And yet, I’m currently immersed in a fabulous website with a very different client. Um.

Stuart: Client makes a difference.

Hannah: Oh my gosh, huge difference. Um, so this client in the past had delegated to me, you know, assuming I knew more than they did about building websites and Um, and I’d shown them proof that I did and then they couldn’t let go. And it was so hard because, you know, we were talking about copy on the website and I was saying, well, this is, you know, statistically and quoting the kind of word counts and this will help you and you don’t want it to be too wordy and all of that stuff that we, you know about it as well as I do. And they just kept arguing. And in the end, a bit of my RSD kicked in. And I found myself being a bit obnoxious, you know, like, well, I’m the expert here. And unfortunately  I lost the ability to say “look, you know, if you want to you trust me as the person that knows more than you do about it, just let me get on with it”.  But it wasn’t great. It put me off websites at the time. And it also, to be honest, put me off those kinds of businesses. But actually it wasn’t a business problem. It was a client problem. They couldn’t let go.  I now get it in hindsight. At the time, I felt, you know, horribly affronted. Um, and you know, I let it get to me on a level that it really shouldn’t have done.

Stuart: No, I get this. You’re trying to exert too much control here. What is it that you need to let me give you what you want?

Hannah: They just couldn’t. Yeah.

Stuart: Yeah. It can be difficult. And like, you know, if they’re struggling with it and you’re struggling with it, then, two people who are not particularly good at it are not going to have good outcomes. But  this is why I think in business you need a mentor. You definitely need someone looking over your shoulder saying you might want to try this or try that. You need somebody who’s been through all the potholes so they can tell you where they are.

Yeah, absolutely that because otherwise it’s just a lose-lose situation. That leads us nicely onto, so delegation isn’t absolving yourself of all responsibility. You’re still allowed preference. If you hand it over, you’re still allowed to say, “Please look after it carefully.” You know, you don’t have to.

Hannah: It doesn’t mean you stop caring. You’re not saying, “Yeah, whatever.” You do it. You know, you’re you’re just, you’re not dumping it.

Stuart: No. No. It isn’t abdication. It’s a dance. And you’re letting the other person lead for a while, which can feel very alien, especially for men going backwards and in high heels. Odd. Um, but you see that the point, the other side of that coin is you don’t abdicate responsibility for it. But you don’t just hand it over like lobbing a hand grenade with the pin out saying, “Oh, can you deal with that?” And unfortunately, a lot of times people make up for their own shortcomings by doing that very thing. They abdicate responsibility to someone and then don’t properly resource them, don’t properly uh brief them.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And I’ve been on the other side of that and it feels like you’re an emotional punching bag.

Coz every single time you go back to them and ask all the questions and they get defensive, you just feel like “I’m failing here”. When it’s actually no. The situation is bad. You’re trying to do the best and if the other person isn’t willing to help you. It’s like having a partner who’s not dancing. So, you’re just basically lifting them up, carrying them around.

That’s not going to win any awards. No, absolutely not. Do you think that getting good at delegating in life will help you delegate in business and vice versa?

Hannah: Well, I kind of touched on it a bit when I was ranting on about my kids and the washing machine.  I think it’s a good starting point. I think if you can hand over the way that I haven’t mastered this yet, um, Steve, husband, if you’re listening, if you can hand over the way that the dishwasher is stacked without, as I do, waiting till no one’s watching and then redoing it,

Then I think at that point hopefully, or certainly in my situation, that’s a really safe place isn’t it to kind of test the waters on delegation. Because the worst that will happen is your kid will say oh my god being a control freak. But you’re practicing. It’s almost like a practicing arena isn’t it? The safety of your own home you can start delegating the stuff that doesn’t hugely matter. Um And then when you’ve mastered it there, I’m thinking as I’m saying this I’m going to try and do this in my own life.

Stuart: Everything that you can do to practice and exercise the mental muscle. Yeah, definitely.

Hannah: Yeah. I mean, I you know, I discovered the other day I’m really bad at asking for help without feeling some kind of shame that that person’s going to think, “Bloody hell, Hannah keeps asking for help.” Um, I never really ask for help, so it won’t happen very often. Um, or  I should be able to do it myself, you know.

Stuart: But actually delegating is fundamentally asking for help. Even in a business sense, it’s not asking like I can’t do it. It’s an evaluation of is my time best spent doing this? Is there somebody else out there that can do it better?

That’s the only question to ask because it’s the only way to grow your business when you only have a finite amount of time. So if you’re doing everything yourself, the only way out of that is to get other people to do bits. I always felt guilty. There was a huge amount of guilt. It was like, I should be a better coder. I should learn how to code. You know, coding’s where it’s at and blah blah blah blah. And then I gave myself permission to not have that skill.

Hannah: I like it. You took it off your armory.

Stuart: I did. It was like I know enough that if there’s a problem, I can delve into the code and I’m not reading a foreign language. I can literally read through the code and go, Oh, that bit does that, that bit does that, that, but my brain just can’t remember syntax.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And, I mean, I can deal with the logic and all the rest of it, but my it’s just like, oh, “how do you write that?” And I have to go and remember how the code was written. So, imagine if you’re writing something in English and you didn’t know all of the words or the sentence structure and you had to keep going and referring to a resource because your brain, it was that. And so, I realised that I was a suboptimal coder. Always was going to be.

There’s always going to be people who are miles better, like just miles better. So, why not take advantage of their skills? And guess what? They love doing it. Whereas mine was more of a, you know, I did it because I couldn’t bear to try and explain what I was trying to achieve until I actually took time to explain what I wanted to achieve. And the person came back and it was 10 times better than I would have done it if it was me. I was like, “Yeah, this has got win all over it. I found somebody who’s better at this than I am.”

And that better could be quite simply time efficient. Not that you’re taking too long, but that they are their skill set means they can get it done in a better time frame. You know, you might take two hours, it might take them an hour and that when it comes to business and time equals money and stuff.

Hannah: It’s completely integral. So Stuart, have you got any examples of when delegation goes wrong? Oh, I’m just like flicking through the rolodex of horrible, horrible pictures of you crying in your brain.

Stuart: Oh dear. Um, yes. Yes, I have. I think the best lessons that you can learn in business are when it goes wrong because you learn two things. One, you learn how you respond. And as I’ve aged, it’s way less emotionally. Way less. It’s just like I now accept that my job, and I can’t believe that I didn’t realise this much earlier, is to solve all the problems. All the problems, every problem that lands on my desk.

Now that doesn’t mean to say that I necessarily have to fix the problem. It means I need to know how to fix the problem. And if that means involving somebody else, and that’s the difference, isn’t it? Knowing how to do something and doing that thing yourself is entirely different. You know how to do something, you can make a judgment call as to whether or not you need to do it, you know, oh, if I hand this off to so and so, it’s going to take him a week. The customer needs it done tomorrow. So, I have a contingency. I know that in the worst case situation, if I have to apply myself, I could probably fix any of the problems that the customer has with their website. Timewise though, four hours of my time fixing it versus one hour of my best coder, I’d rather wait an extra day and then say to my customer, if you just don’t mind waiting, we’ve got a bit of a backlog. And because I’ve done the previous work before about getting the right customers. I never have a customer coming to me, well that’s unacceptable.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Because we got service level agreements and blah blah blah and contracts and stuff. But when it goes badly wrong, it’s usually because I have failed to explain some fundamental element in and around it. And which is why I’m blunt about things nowadays. What’s your budget? What’s your time scale? Are you being reasonable? Do you know If you don’t understand those things, let me help. You get to a point where we can figure out what your time scale and your budget is. I can do most things. It will depend on the time scale and budget though. And that’s what I’ve realised early on. A firm hand by saying this is the way it needs to be done if you need me to do it and I will do it in the way that I know how. If they want someone else to do it, different budget, different time scale, there’s fine, crack on. But if you need me to do it, this is what I’m going to need, and put my responsibilities.

So all of those early disasters of failing to get payments, having rows with customers because they haven’t explicitly read the contract. So when they go, “But you didn’t do so and so.” Yeah. No, that wasn’t as part of the contract”. “Yeah, but I told you”. “Yeah, but when I put the quote together, I specifically excluded that. You didn’t see that”. But do you know what I mean? And nowadays I don’t want anyone to get to the end of the project and go, “But hang on a minute. because that just leads to slow payment arguments, additional hours. I’d rather have all those conversations early on. And the people I work with now, I don’t put somebody, and this will include yourself, I don’t put somebody in a critical path who’s untested. So, the work that I had you do could be delivered, you know, over an extended time scale if it needed to. I was more interested in the quality of the work and the customer signed off on it but still hasn’t given us the permission to publish it yet.

Hannah: That is weird.

Stuart: I know it’s it’s frustrating but at no point did any of what you were doing impact on the successful delivery and payment from the customer and that was all I was caring about because as we’ve spoken about many many times on the podcast, it’s about being able to run your business with the energy that you you have.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And I think sometimes when you’re delegating to someone, you have to recognise that actually I’m doing this because I need my energy to do other things.

Hannah: Yeah. That for me is the key to it.

Stuart: Yeah. And I could do it. But I’ll burn myself out. And it’s that self-preservation, isn’t it?

Hannah: I remember when I was doing that bit of work, I was blown away. And it’s because you get all this, right? Clearly, you are we’re co-hosts. You get all this in your brain. I knew that it would be a good experience. But one of the first things you said, coz you’re so aware of the way that my brain works too, was “this does not need to be done today, tomorrow. You know, you got a couple of weeks”. You must have read my mind and learned that I’d have gone into ‘oh god I better do it now”. And you immediately calmed that panic.

And so actually it was really nice  work that I could do easily and yet it didn’t have for me any of that pressure.

Stuart: But you had already passed the quality test. I already knew that the work was going to be good. I just needed to know we could work together. And there’s no point in saying to somebody that you’re working to for the first time, I need this tomorrow. If anybody says that to me who’s a new customer, oh, we need this in a week. I’m not the guy for you. We have a production schedule. And if you try to break that, I will break. And I am not breaking myself ever again. because somebody else has an emergency that they have failed to plan for. Nobody needs an emergency website. I’m sorry they don’t. I once said to a builder friend of ours, “Hi Gary, if you’re listening, I went up to him. I said, Gary, I’ve got an emergency patio I need.” And he looked at me and said, “Nobody ever needs an emergency patio, Stuart.

Hannah: unless there’s a body to puy underneath it.”

Stuart: Well, he said, “Unless you’re trying to get rid of a body”

Hannah: Did he? Sorry, I spoiled the punchline on that.

Stuart: It’s perfect. It’s very obvious. Uh, and to his credit, to his absolute credit, he delivered. You know, I had given him 10 days to do a 3-week job basically. The fact that I’d already prepared the ground helped.” But the point was I should have involved him at the point where I decided that I wanted a patio, not at the point where I dug the hole out and laid the foundation and then said, “Right, I now need to go and find somebody before family members fall into this hole.

So, I think that a lot of the time, um, I struggle to share enough detail in the past. I think of it as like hoarding control. If I know everything and everybody just gets the little bit that they need, and I’ve realised that is a really poor strategy because you’re not giving people the chance to give them the joined up thinking. So nowadays, when a customer sends me their email with all of the information in it, I just share that with my team. This is what the customer has said, and get them to say to me, “We need to know this, we need to know that.” Because I trust their judgment. Or I will suggest, you know, they don’t seem to have asked this, this, and this, and I’m going to go back to them. What else do you think I should go back to them with? Anything that you think that uh you will need to know?

And I find that collaborative approach of going to somebody really early when you want to delegate to them and say, “Look, I don’t even know if I’m going to delegate to you, but if I did, this is what I’ve got. What more do you need? And what’s the time scale and cost?” And nine times out of 10, that’s how we get briefed. People come to us and say, “Look, uh, I’m not sure if you can do this, but this is what I’ve got. What can you help us with here?” And at that point, you’re just into project management mode of like, “Oh, that’s all right. Okay.” You know, the customer turns up and wants a house built and they’ve turned up with some wallpaper, a garage door, some windows, and some random bit and said “could you put all this together and make a house?” And as long as they’re prepared to work with you, you can help most people. But again, it comes back to expectations and communication.

Hannah: Yeah. I mean,I still have some teenage trauma from, um, I was never a team player, Stuart. I know you’ll find that very hard to believe.

And it and it wasn’t, you know, I won’t go over the same points, but it wasn’t because I thought I was the best for the job, but I remember it was our leavers ball when we were whatever age we were at the end of secondary school, 16 or something,licking each other’s faces behind the curtains, or was that just me? Sorry if you’re the person that got licked if you’re out there, whether they wanted it or not.

Yeah, just randomly like some creepy cat. Um, so a few of us, we all got, you know, I think somebody did some standup comedy,  and a group of us, maybe about six people, were assigned some kind of weird dance thing. Um, and I said, “Oh, I know quite a bit about this stuff, so, you know, I’m happy to lead on this.” I wasn’t leading. I was just brutal. I was like, “Can you stand over there?” And then one of them would say, “Well, what about if we try like this?” No, I’ve told you what to do. And in the end, I was getting so angry. And the reality is I won’t, I won’t you know dig up too much of that trauma. I’ve managed to put it to bed after many sessions of therapy. Um, but the reality is I’ve learned over the years and it’s been a slow process that actually when you let other people get involved, you might well get loads of other fabulous perspectives and the end result will almost certainly end up better or more time efficient. We’re always learning, aren’t we? If we don’t let other people’s ideas in, then we’re just kind of assuming that we know best on everything and that’s not the reality.

Stuart: There are some circumstances where you need people to do exactly what you’re asking them to do. But in the wider sense, If you’ve got a team that you trust, you should be able to say to them, look, you know, this is what we’re trying to achieve. Let’s work on it together. And in the creative field, I think this has perhaps been partially my savior in the creative field, uh, theater, the arts, standup, comedy, writing. I have had some amazing people that I’ve worked with over the years who have shared with me their insights and expertise, and I’ve been able to like a smorgas board go, “Oh, that works for me. I’ll have some of that as well.” But you see, a lot of the people in those industries with those skill sets are probably, you know, part of the tribe, part of the clan, on the spectrum, whatever. And when you see somebody successfully navigating this crazy world and you go, they’re a little bit like me and they seem to be successful when they do that.  I’m having that pick a mix. That’s my personality. It’s full of pick a mix. If you boiled it down, there’s just this rude, angry man like alone in a cupboard. Leave me alone. I’m doing it perfectly being a human.

Hannah: Brilliant.

Stuart: So, I think that brings us neatly on to defining success. Do you think less control and more capacity is the way forward or do you see it as not losing any control and just increasing capacity?

Hannah: Oh, that’s a yeah, that’s a really good question. Well, I I suppose it kind of like you said with the redefining it comes down to how you’re measuring that success because actually if your ultimate goal is to manage your own energy and not come to the end of a project and cry in a corner and say, “I’m never building a website again.” News flash future me,  you did in the end”. Um then yeah so I think it is about how you define that success and for me is it less control? Yeah I think so because I think. and you know it’s hard for me to do that right, but I think if I have less control as long as I’m kind of overseeing you know I’m the project manager of the situation. If you’re picking the right clients and you’re delegating the bits that you can’t do as well as somebody else could or in the right time frames, then it’s ultimately probably going to win. Um, but it’s that letting go, isn’t it? As an ongoing strategy really, not just sort of trying to go everything that you’ve got. It’s all mine and progress, not perfection. I mean, you know, I like to think of myself as a, oh god, she’s going to say the superpower words. Stuart. Oh Hannah, why would you do that? There was an entire blog ranting about it that you wrote.

Stuart:Um well, no, it’s a skill set. It definitely is. You can be a details person without letting that trip you up.

Hannah: And if it’s perfectionism to the point where you’re like the poor people that had to do the dance with me a thousand years ago, then it’s just like “Hannah, you’re never going to be on strictly, not that that existed at the time. It’s not strictly come dancing Hannah. It’s literally a 5-minute dance at the end of your school prom. So, it’s um being able to understand that, you know, you can be a details person. You can get something perfectly right right on brief without letting that kind of perfectionism haunt you and make you take like hours longer than it’s meant to and stuff. I think it’s perspective and being uh confident enough that the outcome will meet the expectation.

Stuart: Yeah. So I only see upside to delegation now. One, because I’ve got some great people around me who I know that when I delegate something, like a simple thing. Sign, okay, I wanted the sign made. I sent it to my sign guy. He improved it and delivered it. He didn’t ask me a thousand questions. He didn’t take 10 weeks. I just gave him my artwork and he took that and improved it. So I think For me, I couldn’t live my life now unless I could successfully and skillfully delegate, which is really frustrating when you have to interact with organisations and businesses where you’re asking them to try and do something for you within their processes and it seems to be that, you know, they’re unable to do this thing. So, what are the takeaways then, Hannah? What do you think uh we’ve learned?

Hannah: Yeah, what have we learned? Well, my key takeaways from this, because every day is a school day. I’m actually learning from our own podcast. Um, whilst perfectionism may well make you feel safe, you’ve got to weigh up that safety or that assumed feeling of safety with how exhausting it is. Um, and that actually when you’re delegating something, it doesn’t mean you’re lowering the standards. You’re redefining those standards and you’re taking off a load of pressure from yourself, which is hugely important. You know, managing a lot of us really struggle with managing our energy and it’s incredibly important to delegate and,  you know, block in your own safety zone of energy. And also, I’m listening to this one the most. You’re allowed to ask for help. Like in life in general, in business, just ask for help. For goodness sake, if there’s the one thing that you go away from today after you’ve listened to this or watched this and you think, “Oh, I’m not going to like break myself by trying to do everything. I’m just going to ask for some help. You can go in gently, you know? Could you make me a cup of tea? Good luck with that if you’ve got a teenager. But yeah, so yeah, ask for help.

Stuart: Yeah, get in touch with us. Ask us for help if you need it genuinely if there’s anybody out there who’s listening to this and thinking, you’re making some good points. I need to have a conversation. You know, get in touch. Send us an email. Get uh get that problem out into the world. And who knows, you may make some progress, some breakthroughs. There may be some uh learnings that we can impart and share for your specific uh situation. I think there’s a few tips that I would share. If you are done with your takeaways?

Hannah: I’m done with my takeaways. Um yeah, share your tips.

Stuart: I think that you should delegate the outcome but not the method. So tell the person clearly unambiguously what your expectation is and what your time scale is and obviously agree what the remuneration is for that. Um, but let them walk their own path. You know, I have this if it’s done 80% of the way, then that’s okay. You know, I’ll make sure that it gets there. Um, if I get to 90%, happy days. I’m really using that contractor again. Um, so, you know, don’t be so wed to the way that something is done that you lose sight of the actual outcome. And the actual outcome is you’ve saved yourself some time.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: So, learning how to delegate is actually a core skill in a small business. Um, yeah, like you said, be kind to yourself. Start with the least emotionally loaded task. Um, I’ve outsourced in the past all sorts of bits and pieces over the years, but I keep the things close to me that I know are going to make a big difference or I am really really wed too. Like the layout, it has to be in a certain way. There has to be a logical structured order that the user is going to be using that website in. And so I want it done in a very specific way because I need to justify to the customer your marketing goals were XY Z which is why we built it in the way we built it. Um yeah, don’t get bogged down in perfectionism. There is that hiding to nothing. Absolutely. Pain, emotional turmoil con and and get Guess what? It’s infinite. It never ends. Coz it doesn’t matter how good you get it, you’ll spot something and you’ll go, “Oh, I could have made it better.” It’s brilliant that you spotted that. But don’t obsess about it. Make it better next time. Remember that for next time. Stick it in your brain.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Always improving. Um don’t think that because delegation failed once that’s delegation. It probably means you either chose the wrong person to delegate it to or didn’t have the right processes or systems in place for you and the client to be able to successfully achieve the outcome. Learn the lesson, improve. It’s a great lesson to learn.

Hannah: You know, no one’s going to die. No one’s going to get arrested. It’s a small business. Just make sure you’ve got insurance, liability insurance. I’ve got that.

Stuart: Just in case. And if you’re spiraling a bit and the burnout feels like it’s threatening, you know, step back from it. Do what you can to put the fires out and then step back from it. Re-evaluate, reassess, go for a walk around the block, take a deep breath, go for a swim, you know, do whatever it is that you do that de-stresses you and allows you to come back with a fresh mind. Um, so yeah, I would suggest that there’s a lot that can be taken from uh learning how to successfully delegate. And if um if you’re struggling with that, then you know, let us know. Get in touch. What bits of it resonated? What bits of it were struggling to understand. Do you have any tips yourself? Any takeaways that you could give us? Be lovely to hear from you. Hannah, anything you want to share with our wonderful audience?

Hannah: Well, I tell you what I could share, Stuart.

Stuart: What’s that?

Hannah: The topic for next week?

Stuart: What is the topic of the week, Hannah?

Hannah: Oh my gosh. Um, yeah. No, I’m not going to say this is a good one. That’s a given. The topic for next week is ‘is using AI the ultimate in ND masking.

Stuart: Oo, very up to date, very current.

Hannah: Yeah, I know. Look at me being all trendy and young.

Stuart: Fantastic. So, we’ll be looking at the use of AI in your small business. Yeah, you know, everybody’s talking about it. It’s everywhere. Uh we’ll be looking at how you can use it perhaps to uh you know, make up for some of those spicier traits or some of your uh harder to deal with tasks, problems and issues. So, look forward to that one. That’s fantastic. Well, thank you very much. Um as always, like, share, subscribe, do all those wonderful things. Get in touch. If you want to be a guest, let us know.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Uh  we have a link to a form, a guest form. I’ll stick that in the uh show notes that accompany this on the website. That’s businesscast.com. Go there, sign up. join our newsletter list and uh we will sporadically update you about things that are happening with the podcast. Don’t worry, we won’t spam you.

Hannah: No.

Stuart: Um we hate that. Uh so do keep an eye on your inbox if you sign up and we will see you next week. All the very best. Goodbye.

Hannah: Bye.

Ep23 dives into the world of neurodivergent self-employment and the exhausting art of masking especially when you are at home.

We explore how neurodiverse business owners often feel the need to slap a “socially acceptable front end” onto their lives to appear competent, only to carry that heavy mask home to their families.

This episode is all about learning to show up as your authentic, tired, human, and slightly “odd” self without the pressure of a 24/7 professional performance to those who love you.

We show up as “Hyper Hannah” and her power-mode hyperfocus and share Stuart’s “trauma dumping” as a way to “lance the boil” of the day’s stress.

They discuss the “washing machine” of rumination and the “popcorn moments” where partners simply watch the neurodiverse firework burn out. Whether it’s arguing with yourself about turkeys in a Christmas suit or having a “therapy argument” in the hallway, with yourself, we share our own internal chaos.

We ask the questions that might help you drop your mask at home and be honest about everything from finances to meltdowns, self-employment becomes a truly sustainable and magnificent adventure where you get to become your awesome self.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to the Show
00:00:13 – Topic of the Week: Being Self-employed Without Wearing a Mask at Home
00:03:00 – Masking and being inauthentic, and managing everything else
00:04:03 – Internal imposter’s syndrome and gaslighting your own skills
00:06:49 – Capacity, capability and professionalism…
00:08:23 – Reassuring others and reminding yourself how good you are
00:09:36 – Working from home – the transition and unburdening yourself
00:11:18 – Masking adds to the workload and mental burden
00:14:25 – Gnawing self-doubt, and using the m ask to convice yourself you can do it
00:15:10 – Hiding work stress within the mask, creating pressure when trying to unmask
00:17:05 – How do you keep stresses in “work mode” only?
00:18:30 – How do you deal with rummination, and being present?
00:20:35 – The key part of self-employment and how it impacts your success
00:22:33 – The toxic nature of success at all costs
00:26:13 – Perfectionism pressure and a harsh inner voice causes stress
00:27:10 – Being understanding and sticking to boundaries within your family
00:31:00 – Having a trusted business friend to listen and help
00:32:31 – Talking to yourself can sometimes be all you need – TANGENT
00:36:29 – Final Point – keeping lines of communication clear is key
00:39:19 – The difficulty of being honest vs avoiding conflict
00:42:17 – Acknowledging your own idiocy and being proud of it
00:44:44 – Self employment; The freedom to start to be yourself
00:46:48 – H’s takeaways… Authenticity… Honesty…
00:51:51 – S’s takeaways… Boundaries… Your needs…
00:52:37 – When ranting we don’t need any guidance or advice or a time machine
00:53:14 – How do YOU deal with all of this?
00:53:27 – Next Week’s Topic – Delegation for Control Freaks (and the Overwhelmed) and Roy Castle
00:55:57 – LENGTH

————————————-

————————————-

RESOURCES

https://here2help.uk/further-information/ – Fab resource and amazing organisation raising awareness and support for autistic suicide prevention. 
Information regarding Alexythimia and other helpful autism and autistic related factsheets on the link.

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

————————————-

OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

OUR SOCIALS
youtube.com/BusinessOddcast
facebook.com/BusinessOddcast
instagram.com/BusinessOddcast

Stuart: Hello and welcome to the Business podcast. This is episode 23. I’m your host Stuart Morrison and this is my fantastic Abley Able co-host. The very able Hannah Logan.

Hannah: Hello. No pressure, Hannah Logan.

Stuart: No pressure. Hey, look. We’re episode 23. We are steaming into 2026. We’re on fire.

Hannah: Certainly are, in a good way.

Stuart: So, yes. Don’t set off any sprinklers.

Hannah: Yeah. Don’t do this at home.

Stuart: So, Hannah, what is the topic of the week?

Hannah: Ah, the topic of the week is ‘being self-employed without wearing a mask’. What does that mean? I hear you ask Stu. You said that without moving your mouth. 

Sorry about that. Um, so, right, being self-employed, I think often or certainly I can relate to this. It comes with an unspoken pressure to appear competent, confident, on top of things at all times. Especially when your work is tied closely to your identity. And so I think for a lot of neurodiverse people, that pressure can turn into masking. And we touched on this a bit in our episode last week. But there’s that pressure to hold it together professionally, to manage your performing capabilities, absorbing any kind of uncertainty that you’re going through, but also then sometimes carrying that same mask home into our closest relationships. To our friends and our family, um, the people closest to us. 

Often our family kind of see the surface version. So, they get the whole kind of, you know, Hannah or Stu is doing fine. They certainly do with me. I don’t really share an awful lot. Sorry, I’m not going to turn this into a therapy session. My name’s Hannah and I’m going to share.

Stuart: I was going to say that’s all this has been up to now literally is a therapy session. 

Hannah: Often they think, or they certainly do with me, that everything’s fine. But underneath actually I’m holding that stress or fear you. 

So I think this episode at its core is about a sort of authentic connection with those nearest and dearest to us when we’re self-employed. But also giving you some help really on how to show up as yourself even when that version is sort of uncertain, tired, human and to ensure that you feel supported whilst you do that because relationships shouldn’t require you to keep performing once your work day is finished. Um if that makes sense.

Stuart:  Yeah. No, I’m processing in real time. Definitely. I think we need to sort of open this up a little. Uh because the masking thing is really interesting once you’ve noticed it in yourself, once it’s been pointed out and you realize, oh my god, that’s why I feel so inauthentic all the time. Feel like I’m wearing a mask. It is literally because I’m slapping this socially acceptable front end on this very neurodiverse back end. Um and then you layer on top of that Mr. competent business person or Mrs competent business person. How do you turn up and then if there’s stress around money you know. There’s a lot of emotion around money especially for neurodiverse people with impulse control. And you know 70% are unemployed, so money is a big thing. So there’s multiple layers there to peel back.

Hannah: Have you ever had this, Stuart? You might well have done. Sometimes I’ll do something or very often I’ll do something in my business world and somebody will feed back and say, “Oh my god, that’s amazing. I love that bit of whatever you did, strategy, whatever it is.” Um, and for a moment I go, for a moment I go like, “Oh, business Hannah’s really good at this.” Like business Hannah is a different person. Or I’m like, “Ooh, you know, like a bit of an imposter syndrome sneaking in there like, “Oh, wow. I did a good thing.” Like, it’s a surprise to me. But actually, I’ve had many years of doing a good thing at work or even when I was employed and self-employment now. 

Stuart: Well, I’ll share with you. I do have future Stu and past Stu and I do thank them and sometimes actively say, “Well, good luck to future Stu coz he’s got to deal with that”.

Hannah: But have you ever had this where you’ve looked at a piece of work and gone, “This is an amazing piece of work”. And you’ve read it or you’ve looked at it  and you can’t quite believe that it was you that did it.

Stuart: Yes.

Hannah: It’s like another person has done this thing and you’re like, “That’s incredible”. Well done, whichever version of me that was. 

Stuart: And do you know what I liken this or what I assume in those moments? So often my finest work has come out of a hyperfocus. And my hyperfocus is a little bit like, you know, I imagine if it was a video, my eyes would roll back and I’d change a different color or something weird, you know, or like a different a kind of filter would come over me and then I just go into like power mode and then I wake back up glowing.

Hannah: Yeah. And then I wake back up like I’m all a bit crinkly where I’ve sucked all my energy and then I look at what I’ve created and I’m like ooh that’s some good stuff there. And so often when I get that kind of oh well done Hannah, a little pat on the shoulder. It’s because Hyper Hannah has just got it. 

Stuart: I like Hyper Hannah

Hannah: Hyper Hannah. She doesn’t care. She wears some Lyra. It’s not ideal.

Stuart : Fully lighted up.

Hannah: It’s very pink and shiny. Um,

So actually often I’ve had it with some of the blogs that we do on the Oddcast. Um, as have you, you must have done. People are like, “Oh, I loved that one.” And I read it again and I’m like, “Oo, that was good. That’s a good one, Hannah. Well, like that is really good and I’m not amazed because I know that I am good at writing and it’s okay for listeners to appreciate the things you’re good at and to say it out loud. It’s really important. I’ve learned that. 

Stuart: But you see that ties in nicely with the capacity, and the professionalism because when you doubt yourself, you doubt yourself to your core. It’s not just like, oh, today is a little bit of wobbly doubt. It’s like, no, I am the worst at this. Why does anybody trust me with it?

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And sometimes when I have that impetus, I reserve the right to change my mind and just put a little bookmark in like, yeah, yeah, you might be right, but reserve your right to change your mind. Uh, and that’s why I say I’m an unreliable witness, coz you could ask me something one day and depending on how hard I need to mask or be professional outside the house when I come back in it takes a moment to get rid of it. It takes , you know, the older I get the easier it gets coz to be frank the guy who walks out the door is pretty unmasked these days. If anybody knows me you’re like “that’s you masking”. No, just me.

Hannah: Um so there’s that pressure to be a competent business owner. And sometimes I think we do ourselves a disservice by not believing in our own output. And even when we look at it later and go, “Oh, that’s amazing.” We should be patting ourselves on the back going, “You did good.” Rather than being surprised at the quality of what you did, I’m quite good at this. It’s weird, isn’t it? Because with that, I often feel that pressure to sort of reassure the person that I’m working for that everything’s fine. And you have to be careful because if you sound like you’re reassuring them, then they’re going to start questioning like , you know, you doth protest too much. You know what I mean?

Stuart: That’s it. Yeah..

Hannah: I would love to, you know, you listeners know that I’m not into New Year’s resolutions, so do not think I’m daring to do one of those. Because we’re in February and I am absolutely not doing that. I’m having a rant now. But you know, I would love to get to a point where I can just do that. 

In my work I get really good results and I need to just remind myself of that. And there is a version of me that’s like, oh, you know, I shouldn’t be surprised that I did some good work. I’ve repeatedly been doing good work for years. Why am I shocked if I write a good blog. It’s not a shock actually to be fair, but why am I even like, eyebrow raises, that’s good? Yes, it is good Hannah coz you are good at it and that’s why you do it for a job. So, that was a little little roaming tangent, but

Stuart: Well, no, it’s interesting because I work from home. Um, I have my own studio. I’m lucky enough uh I’m privileged enough to have that. And I use the walk up and down the garden to try and let everything go. Sometimes it can be difficult, especially with a tricky thing or a conversation that hasn’t perhaps gone the way you want. You know, you either carry it or you just need to let it out. 

I said this to Jemma early in our relationship. It’s not that I need you to respond to me. It’s that I’m getting it out. It’s like I’m lancing the boil. I just need to say it out loud so that it doesn’t seem like I’m an irrational idiot. And just a sense check sometimes is like am I wrong to think this because of these things? And sometimes the detail is far too granular and specific to my particular industry for Jemma to even say. She can understand it, but you know it’s like it’s not her specialist subject. 

I walk into the house and she’s listening to a bit of radio two and pottering around and then I come in and do a trauma dump and she’s like that sounds terrible dear. Oh that’s awful. But for me that’s the way of taking the mask off. It’s the way that I can just get rid of the residual kind of day in my head. And other days I walk up and I’m as light as light can be because I’ve been designing all afternoon or writing all afternoon. Haven’t had to do anything particularly what I think of as mentally taxing.

Hannah: Yeah. And you’ve touched on a really good and a really important point there. Some of the work that I do is not masking at all. Like you were saying when you know designing or sort of really creative elements of work I’m not having to mask. I think the masking that I do in my day-to-day business is probably some of the communication. You know, if I’m on a business meeting, if I’m on a Zoom call. Now, you know, anybody that works with me is going to be staring at my face. If I’m on a Zoom call, I’m spending most of that time reminding myself to not pull silly faces or just go start looking at the ceiling like, “you know, what am I doing?” Because I’m aware that ‘normal’ people don’t do that. So, that is masking, right? Coz I’m having to look like don’t start stimming or just obviously thinking about something else. Whereas a lot of the work I’m doing when I’m writing a blog or I’m writing some content I’m not masking. For me it’s the a lot of the communication, because you’re in business mode.

Stuart: Oh yeah. And also being perceived. I struggle with being perceived unless I’m in control of not necessarily the whole entire environment but the circumstances under which I’m being perceived. You know, you could argue that the suits are a mask, that they’re a front. They’re insulation against the world. To a certain extent, they are because they get rid of the idiots really quickly. A great filtering system. Uh, and our people see it and it tends to be a beacon of the shiny for them.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: Um, but yeah, the masking thing can be really really stressful especially if you let it come between you and your relationship. I think I was fortunate enough that when I met Jemma I had not really been very good at masking anyway. I was terrible. so just gave up on it. Just decided that this would fall into the category of somebody else’s problem. I’m slightly more mature now. I realise that like I said before, you know, having a flexible approach to having a mask can be quite useful, especially if you want to get people to do what you want them to do. It feels disingenuous though, doesn’t it? Putting on a persona so that the person opposite you will. It feels manipulative.

Hannah: I hear what you’re saying, and it can feel manipulative. But for me, I put it on and I almost think of it, and this sounds weird. I almost think of it as like work mode, Hannah. Sensible Hannah. So, okay, I’m in work mode now because my brain needs to understand you’re in work mode now.

Stuart: Oh, you need to be rebranded by Apple. Hannah. Hannah Pro. Hannah Pro Max.

Hannah: Oh my goodness, that would be so good. Apple, if you’re listening, somebody important at Apple. I’m there. I’m with you. Um, I think for me it’s kind of because there is always Sadly, a little tiny gnoring self-doubt sitting on my shoulder going, “But you’re rubbish at this and they’ll find out soon.” So, my business persona or my business mask is more about convincing me. Do you know what I mean? Like I’m in sensible work mode, you know? I’ve got my headphones on, or whatever I’m doing that puts me into that mindset, because along with that mindset comes that confidence to be able to do whatever task I’ve got to do. 

But it is a mask and we know when we are masking. I mean this kind of goes nicely into one of the next points to talk about really. When we are masking, I don’t know if you’re the same here, but I find that sometimes I hide a lot of my work-related stress within that mask. But it kind of goes into a,  I don’t know if I’ve explained that very well but, it kind of goes into a bit of a pressure cooker.  You know. Because sensible business Hannah can sort that out. Don’t worry, not enough clients, don’t worry. Sensible business Hannah will sort that out. But actually, real me does worry about that. 

That is something with self-employment that, you know. You’re not getting handed work. I mean, there’s so many benefits, so I won rattle them off now, but you know, one of the negative parts of it is that there will invariably be a kind of “have I got enough continuous work going on” thing. For me, that can be a kind of little worry bumbling around in the background. 

Stuart: I think after you’ve been in business for a long enough time, it reduces to background radiation. You know, it’s there. It has an effect, but over the longer term, you’re up, you’re down.

Hannah: Yeah, that makes sense. That does make sense. 

Stuart: But it doesn’t take the stress of it away in the moment. That’s not to minimise where you’re at now with it. But I hear what you’re saying, because actually I guess over time you get that experience. That you know, well okay you might be in a bit of a drought at the moment, but you know it always turns up. Projects come your way. I always think of it as the way of the universe giving you a nudge in a new direction. Over the last two years a particular source of work from a particular customer group has pretty much dried up and I was going to run it harder. I was like “no you need more exposure, you need to do all the rest of it and it’s like no.  No it’s dried up the puddle is reduced to a point where..

Hannah: It’s just dust.

Stuart: It’s dust. Yeah. You know,

Hannah: So what do you do Stuart if you’ve got any work related stresses, worries, etc. Are you able to keep that within work mode, Stu? Or does that leak into your, you know, into your family and or or your sort of, you know?

Stuart: No. I always try to be in good standing with my customers. I Try not to let the sun set on an intractable problem or an uttered piece of feedback that’s negative. You know, you get them from time to time. I will always try and at the very least feel like I’ve put my best case back before the end of the day, and that helps. But I think for me the stress doesn’t come from the problems. I accepted a long long time ago that my job as a business owner is to problem solve. That’s it. I’ve solved problems for my customers. I solve problems for myself. If I think that I’m going to have a problemfree existence, yeah, that worries me because if you don’t have any problems, you don’t have any problems to fix. And if my customers don’t have any problems to fix, how can I be relevant to them?

Hannah: Yeah. 

Stuart: So, it’s not that there are problems whether they are in my business, or with my customers and their businesses. Mine is rumination. Rumination on prior outcomes or future desired outcomes. Just the constant turning of the problem around and around and around in your head like a washing machine and it never stops. It never goes away. It’s like a constant laundry list of these problems and your mind returns to them over and over and over again. And that’s what I found has been a stress in your personal relationships because you’re not present.

Hannah: Yeah. Do you talk about that stuff with your family? I mean, for me, my family, my kids, and my husband have no clue. Like, you could get them in this room now and say, “Hello, Hannah’s family. What does Hannah do for work?” And they’d be like, “Oh, I think she writes stuff.” One of them would tell you I build websites. I don’t, but I have, because that’s probably the last thing they remember me doing. I think my husband would have no clue at all. So, my point being, bit of a tangent, as we all know that I can do. Um, my point being, it’s a problem for me, but I don’t talk about my work with my family. Occasionally I’ll say, “Oh, I wrote a really good blog or I’m building this thing, whatever.” But very rarely. So, not only am I not sharing what I do, but I’m not sharing any of that internal stress that I have as well, which can’t be a good thing.

Stuart: But no, you see, I think that’s the key to it. It doesn’t matter whether it’s that part of your life or your business part of your life or whatever. I just never decided that I was going to be selective with what I showed up with with my wife, mostly because she’ll be the first person to tell you that Stuart just has no filter. I just don’t have a filter. It broke and I don’t know when.

Hannah: I like it! . I mean, we’ve touched on this a bit, but obviously a really key part of this is supportive partners, you know, having supportive people in your life and understanding what you’re like. Like you’ve explained with your wife and stuff. But remembering that those people aren’t mind readers. So, even if they are deeply supportive, they can’t as I’m thinking this or as I’m saying this, I’m thinking I need to do this. 

“Hannah they can’t help if they don’t understand what’s actually going on and happening under the surface.  they can’t be supportive”.  So actually I think it is about making sure you are being really transparent with them,  like we said before. That doesn’t mean trauma dumping like we’ve got no money we’re all going to be homeless. You don’t want to throw that chaos at your family. 

Stuart: And also one would hope that that doesn’t just happen in a minute you know that there’s a leadup to that kind of terrible stuff. Um, but you know, if we work backwards from that, it’s about being transparent and honest and then you can get that support that you need from your loved ones. Because you’re both just being really honest or you’re all just being really honest and transparent with each other. Um, and being truthful about what support you need. I mean, you might be the kind of person that doesn’t need a lot of reassurance, regular reassurance, but maybe the support is just knowing that they trust you to know what you’re doing and get on with it. Does that make sense?

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Oh, a bad relationship will undermine a business.  I’ve seen it up close and personal way too many times. The partner who’s not supportive of the vision of life that this entrepreneur wants to build and create. And you just can’t see that as sustainable if you’re being undermined in your own home every time you turn up and you’re like, you want to share and..see this this speaks to the heart of it. This problem is maybe not as prevalent as it used to be, but it’s still definitely doing the rounds in the networking scene. Success at all costs. How are you doing? I’m doing fine. It’s brilliant. We’re just one of the best months smashing it.

Well, actually recently I’ve had those conversations a little bit more. You know, people are like, it’s cold out there, it’s bad out there. It’s, you know, what have you. But it used to be that, if you were, nobody wants to do business with a misery guts. So, you’re successful by default. 

Now, you take that and put that in the home and the pressure to be successful and not share the authentic like it’s a bit s*** and I’m a bit worried because my partner might leave me or might judge me or you know add any of the self-doubts that you want to. Um the point to it is you have to be able to say to your partner this is where we are. This is not this reflection. We’re going to have to cut back for the next two months because we’ve got a cash flow issue. And the other person accepting that and not suddenly going oh why didn’t you work harder? Why didn’t you do this? And suddenly making it all your fault because they believe that you are working in their best interest and have been doing all of the hardest work. It’s just the nature of the beast.

Hannah: It’s that trusting in you, isn’t it? I have a lot of that in my family. I just don’t think they’re hugely interested in what I do. And I don’t take that as, you know, I’m not offended by that. We’re a family of people that are all in our little own worlds a lot of the time. It’s just the way that we work together and it works really well. But I think they also just trust me to crack on with it. You know, they know that if there’s a problem, well, I’ll put my hand up and if there isn’t, I just go about my business.

Stuart: Ultimately, I think the best thing that you’ve got is they support you in your endeavors. Whether they understand your endeavors, that’s almost immaterial. I never really understood what my dad did. But having the ability to come home and just be himself.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: My I never got the feeling that my dad masked much really.

Hannah: No.

Stuart: He was a bit of an engineering nerd and he spent all his day with engineering nerds and then came home to an engineering nerd as a son, just comfortable all around really. Just Yeah. So, yeah, I think that families can change the dynamic uh outcome of business owners or an entrepreneur, especially when that support can sometimes feel like pressure of “I don’t want to let them down”. I had it really bad when my last business went bust.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Um I just felt like I absolutely spoiled everything. You know, we had to sell the bloody house. Doesn’t get much more real than that. Um at the time it felt like the necessary and quickest way we could prevent economic catastrophe. Personally, it felt like I’d let everyone down. Uh, you know, we were having to sell a family home that we’d renovated and it was fitting our needs perfectly, you know.

Hannah: Yeah. And putting that pressure, I think, as a lot of us can be really quite perfectionist, I wonder if there’s a bit of your own pressure on yourself, you know, coz you’ve got a really understanding, supportive family. But I wonder if a lot of that was inner criticism or shame or whatever you were feeling.

Stuart: I have an extremely harsh inner voice. Really, I let it out sometimes. And Jemma’s like that’s a terrible thing to think about yourself. And I think some to some degree that’s how I got good at dealing with hecklers coz in my teenage years..

Hannah: Your parents were hecklers.

Stuart: Yeah. I got really good at comebacks, you know, when my dad was like, “Oh, you’re going out like that, are you?”

Hannah: Your whole childhood was hecklers. It’s grown you into the magnificent that you are today.

Stuart: I’m having this realisation in the moment. I think also what’s worked for our family is understanding those boundaries that are there as well. Yeah. So, like I’m terrible for this non-stop business talk. Like, yeah. But then everybody I know is in business. All of the people around me are in business. I deal with small businesses. It’s very difficult when we go out to not bump into somebody that I know locally through business. Um, which can make socializing a challenge. I wonder sometimes if it makes me feel a bit standoffish because I’m in an environment where other people are and I just don’t want to talk to them. And that’s not on them. It’s just like I’m sick and fed up of

Hannah: Yeah. You want a break 

Stuart: I just need a break from the business. And I think that having a boundary around that with your significant other, your family. Um, both ways that you are allowed to talk to it about it, but should really know when to shut up.  How’s that in your house? How does that work?

Hannah: Well, we just don’t talk about it. So, my husband is employed and I think he probably has a really stressful job. He’s quite high up the food chain in that company and he just doesn’t talk about it. Occasionally, we both work from home, so occasionally I’ll hear him ranting on a call to his boss usually. And then later I might say, “Oh, have you had a bit of a rough day?” And he’ll say, “Well, work’s just a bit s*** sometimes.” And that’s the end of the conversation. And it’s not eating him up inside. He’s incredibly good at compartmentalizing this stuff. So, he’s like, “That was rubbish, but that’s work. The laptop gets shut at 6:00, half 5, whatever it is, it never haunts him again until the next morning. He might think, “Oh, I had that annoying chat with my boss yesterday.” But that’s it. 

So, I’m a very different type of animal. I don’t talk about it because, well, generally my work’s not that stressful to be fair. I don’t work full-time and I work from home, and I’m my own boss, so who doesn’t love all of that? So, if I’ve had an idiot client, I might say to Steve, “Oh, that bloody idiot from blah blah blah,” you know, and he’ll do a little bit of, “Oh, dear.” Just tell him to sod off, but it’s not there’s never that angst conversations, you know, I’m not the main bread winner in our family, which I appreciate is a very fortunate position to be in. 

So, it’s not, you know, if I lost all my work tomorrow, which would be rubbish, but we’re not going to have to start eating dust from the gardens. So, I’m incredibly fortunate in that situation. So, maybe that’s why I’m not having those kinds of conversations. Um, yeah, I don’t know.

Stuart: I think it’s also up to each individual partnership what they discuss, and knowing where those boundaries are and respecting them. I just think that a healthy outlet sometimes is a third person who maybe understands a little bit more about it, like a trusted friend where you can just ramble on. I’ve got several friends who are self-employed, or business owners. So, you can sometimes vent to them in a little more detail that gives the context to the response of yeah, yeah, they sound like bloody idiots. A little more weight than your partner who doesn’t get any of it and is all “Yeah”. 

Hannah: I often talk to you about business stuff because I really value your opinion and you are much further along in experience in the kind of work that we do than I am. But also, you’ll say something really, sensible is the wrong word, but if I say, “Oh, this happened. That’s annoying coz now I’ve got to do this.” You’ll say, “Well, did you think about doing it this way?” 

 I’m not somebody that just wants to be stroked. Like, oh, poor you. I’m a solutions person. I want a solution. 

Stuart: That’s the thing is if I’m letting something out, just letting it out can sometimes be okay. Just like this bloody thing happened, blah blah blah. Load the rubbish. Yeah.

But sometimes you actually want somebody to go, actually, you made a mistake here or if you’d have done this thing here to prevent that. 

I just get the sense that sometimes when people vent to their partner, they’re doing it just to vent, just to offload in a way. Sometimes Jem says to me, she’ll walk out the room and go, “You don’t need me for this bit, do you?” Just so brutal, but so so honest. Just like, “You don’t actually need me here.” And at times I’ve gone like, “No, no.” And I’ve carried on just letting it out just because like if I don’t my brain will just run it. round in a loop until I say it to leave down.

Hannah: Do you ever do this? Oh, this is going to be embarrassing if you say no. Um, do you ever have, so, I have two-sided conversations. So, I’ll go into my husband’s office in our house and be like, “Oh, this just happened.” And then I will have his side of the conversation, but it will be said as one conversation, but I’ll be answering my own questions. So, he’s been invited into a conversation where I’ve not let him speak and I’ve said, you know, I’ve said “this idiot said they’re not going to pay me till I do this” and then I say the reply to that. Then I say the next bit, and in the end you can see him thinking, “oh, you’re just having the whole conversation on your own”. It’s really weird sitting there eating popcorn.

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: And it and but I’ll come to a more often than not I’ll just come to a conclusion and feel fine and then leave like oh and and 

Sometimes I’ve said thank you for that and he said “I didn’t say a word. You didn’t let me get a word in”. But I just needed an audience.

Stuart: Just need to get it out.

Hannah: I needed an audience while I downloaded it.

Stuart: It works though. You have to do what works. That’s the point, isn’t it? It’s like being self-employed because you’re neurodiverse gives you the opportunity, to guess what?, be neurodiverse. So if that’s how you let the pressure out and your partner’s like, I’m glad I could help. The phrase “glad I could help”. Jemma has said to me so many times when all I’ve done is go off on a trauma dump.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And they said so and so, so what would you have done? Yeah, I know what you would have done. So I’m hearing exactly the same thing. You know, it’s like I do this and I say “release the end scene”. And Jemma’s like, “Thank you for that.” It’s probably quite fascinating to watch.

Hannah: I was trying to record something last night. I told this to you earlier when we were off air, but I was trying to record something and I kept messing it up and I was berating myself, but not in a kind of self flagillation way. But I would do a bit then be like, “Oh my god, Hannah, it’s not complicated. Just do it properly.” And then I’d do it again. Oh my god, and in the end one of my family, I think it was my daughter called up the stairs “are you all right up there”? Coz I was literally arguing with myself, but I didn’t feel upset or angry or stressy. It was really weird. It was a kind of therapy argument that I was having with myself that ended up therapy. It was really weird. By the end of it, I’d talked myself off the ledge. It was like I had gone full circle.

Stuart: It’s the old Montypython sketch, isn’t it? I’ve come here for an argument.

Hannah: I think I’m going to, like there’s going to be an intervention at some point, coz I’m admitting so much on this podcast. I’ll get home and they’ll be like, “Hannah, there’s a special van outside ready. You’ve admitted that you’ve been talking to yourself, arguing with yourself.

Stuart: Well, I was arguing with myself about turkeys in Sainsburys. You imagine that, can’t you? A man standing in front, like me doing the maths out loud of Right. “So, if we’ve got seven, that’s going to be 14. But then it’s going to fit in the, I don’t know. Uh I’ve got to get goose fat as well”. People just like staring at the managers in the background like “hello, we’ve got one of them on aisle three”. It doesn’t help. panting at the turkeys. Doesn’t help when you’re in a bright red suit with Christmas decorations all over it. It’s like you’d escaped from somewhere and they were like, “Okay, can you just dial, will you escort the traumatized neurodiverse man in the outfit out of the melee, please?” Bing bong.

Hannah: Oh, that’s so good. That is so good.

Stuart: So, I think the final point here is that if you are able to, and you have a relationship where the lines of communication are clear, and that’s not necessarily just the relationship in your personal life. That’s if you’ve got a business partner like to a certain extent we’re partners in this, and I keep open lines of communication at all times because you need to know where I’m at. Not only in terms of the work but also in terms of capacity to do upcoming work and you manage my incapacity at times extremely well and I really appreciate it.

Hannah: Likewise, it works vice versa, doesn’t it? 

Stuart: But I’m hoping the point is that you can lean on me for the things that maybe are stressing you, or you need help with. And that allows for a much easier life just saying what you mean. People out there, neurotypicals, please just say what you mean. We won’t be offended. In actual fact, we’ll shake you by the hand. We won’t shake you by the hand. We won’t touch you. We won’t want to look into your eyes. We’ll nod at you.

We’ll nod sagely as we stand alongside you going, “See, you don’t have to elude. You don’t have to use similes or analogies or, you know, hopefully people will read between the lines.” No, just say what you want.

Hannah: Yeah, I still have to remind myself that there are people in my life that do just say it as it is and it’s so refreshing. But I think I’ve had a lifetime of people kind of eluding and gaslighting.

Stuart: Yeah. I’d much rather somebody shout at me for 2 minutes and it’s done and we’re able to move on than somebody basically be backstabbing me. 100%. And I think over the years I have got rid of all those people.

The people who are significant in my life are people I absolutely implicitly trust to tell me when I’m an idiot to my face and they trust that I’m not going to start, you know, waving my arms around and getting bent out of shape. If I’ve been an idiot, I need to hear that.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. And I need to either own it and apologise or explain that I wasn’t trying to be an idiot.

Stuart: Yeah, I was an accidental idiot.

Hannah: But I remember somebody saying to me once, it must be one of my many therapists. Shout out to therapist number 25 if you’re listening. Um, I was complaining about somebody in my life. It was many years ago. And they said, “But have you told that person that this bothers you?” And I said, “No, coz that will cause drama. and they said, “But then you’re expecting them to do something, but you’ve never explained to them why you need this done, or whatever it is.” But the point being, when you’re really honest, and it can be really difficult, sometimes it’s really difficult to be really honest coz it’s a very vulnerable state to be in.

Stuart: True.

Hannah: But when you are being really honest, everyone knows where they stand. And when you understand each other really well, you know, my husband knows that I can have a meltdown. down that will last 10 minutes of me just ranting about this idiot and that idiot. But at the end of it, I will have worked through it and I’ll be smiling and laughing again. And he’s now learned to just watch and get the popcorn and watch. Coz it comes to its own natural end. Do not try to intervene. Do not say “don’t be silly”, because that blows it up even bigger.

Stuart: Oh, being told I’m wrong. Just stand back. You know, I’m a firework. Stand back. I burn out. eventually. It might be messy to watch and it might be a bit awkward for everybody listening, but it goes and then I’m like, “Anyway, who wants a cup of tea?” So, that’s the point, isn’t it? Just being honest. One of the takeaways from this is being honest. When you’re honest to the people around you, everyone understands each other and it just makes life easier. 

We jokingly call our listeners the odd squad. Um, but surely having the ability to be a bit odd, bit strange, bit weird, do things in your own way. To talk out your problems, talk them through without anyone else being in the room, and at the same time expecting input. All of those things are whatever they need to be to allow you to have a more balanced mental health situation rather than bottling it all up inside. And Oh god, the endless listing and rumination and kind of scorekeeping and guilting and shaming. Oh, that internal mastrom that if you can’t let it out just drives you nuts. Absolutely it does.

Hannah: Absolutely. I remember my husband, once when I was having a meltdown. Quite a long time ago. My husband sort of shouted, “I don’t know what you want.” And I shouted back, “I don’t know what I want”.That’s two of us. We have that in common. 

And then at that point, I think he realised that, coz he’s a real fixer. He realised, “Oh, she doesn’t want this to be fixed. This is a process that she needs to go through a little, you know, she needs the firework to burn out”. And then usually sometimes I need to go and lick my wounds or other times I’m like, “Oh, it was nothing.” You know, it’s a storm in a teacup type situation. So..

Stuart: The one that Jem’s learned over the years not to interfere is when I know I’m being an idiot.

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: When I know I’m walking my idiocy out and about proudly. being a proud out the closet idiot, taking it around, wandering it up and down. It’s usually very funny and it ends very self-deprecating and I have to accept and own it. But I just it’s like I need the ego to just deflate like by just talking it out. 

Hannah: It’s so true. My son said to me, we were having a heart-to-heart the other week and my son said, because we were talking about emotional regulation, or a lack of it sometimes in my case! And he said, “Mom, when I was younger, you know, I knew that you would just have these moments. As they like to refer to them “these moments.” And I said, “I’m really sorry. That must have been difficult for you.” And he said, “No, it never really bothered me coz you’d have a go at me and then by the time you’d walk walked out of my bedroom back to the kitchen. You’d come back and say, “Sorry, I was a total dick just then.” I didn’t mean any of what I just said. I’m having a really bad day. And he said, “And I knew that although it wasn’t ideal that you’d have a go, I knew that you’d own it.” You know, he said, “You taught me it’s really really important to own it when you know you’re being a dick”.

Stuart: Yes.

Hannah: And so he said, “I knew that you didn’t mean it. And although it, you know, It could be hurtful sometimes, I was like, oh, she’s having one of those. She’s on one of those”. And, you know, so I’m not advocating that you shout at somebody then, you know, apologise. Coz at the end of the day, if you’ve been a dick and then you apologise, you still will have hurt that person to some degree.

Stuart: You’re still being a dick.

Hannah: You’re still being a dick. As my husband says, it doesn’t erase the dickness, does it? Just by apologising. But actually being able to recognise when you are being an idiot and then own it and apologise is huge. And I never used to do, you know, it’s only been in recent years that I’ve really been able to differentiate when I’m being completely awful, coz I’m very capable of it. I know that’s a surprise to anybody listening, but you know to actually understand what I am being an idiot and own it. Um, yeah, that’s a bit of a game changer for me, but slightly off topic.

Stuart: Well, no, it’s not. It’s not really because ultimately, and this is the beauty of self-employment. It covers every aspect of your life because you’re living your life. So whether you’ve got staff, whether you’ve got no staff, whether this is the first day on the job, you’re still dealing with your neurodiversity. It doesn’t switch off because of where you are in your career progression or in your relationship. So, I think for for me the business Oddcast is all about exploring the human side of this, not just the business person, not just the neurodiverse person, but the human inside that’s dealing with all of this so that other people can go, “it’s just a human dealing with things in their own way.” But let’s not minimise that. Let’s accept it, and what can we do to get the best out of it for everyone. I think that’s the mission statement right there.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. There’s nothing more healing than that kind of sense of group empathy of knowing that there are other people out there nodding along when you’re explaining something. 

Stuart: So, yeah, if there’s anything that you’ve heard that you want to add to, anything that you’ve heard that you disagree implicitly with and has you shouting at the radio, we want to hear it. We want to hear all sides. 

Hannah: I won’t start crying and saying, “Why don’t you love me?” I’ll just think of some comebacks. Don’t you worry.

Stuart: I don’t care about heckling. I really don’t care. My friend said to me the other day, “You walk about like you really don’t care what other people think.” And he said, ” I’ve learned over 30 years that it’s because you really don’t care what other people think.” He was referring, of course, to my inimitable style, not my just general attitude. “It’s like, you really don’t care about it do you? It’s like people are stopping and staring at you”. Let them. It’s the free world.

Hannah: It’s so freeing though. That’s literally my life goal.

Stuart: Ah, it takes a while to get there. It really does. Um so what takeaways do you think you’ll be taking away?

Hannah: So what takeaways are we taking away? Oh, well I think for me the big one is that kind of authenticity that we’ve touched on quite a bit. Just being your true self and knowing that support works best when you’ve outlined your needs. 

You know, everybody understands what you need from them. Can I say I need any more times? Needy need. I’m a needy need over here. Um boundaries again, we’ve touched on boundaries loads over our episodes, but they are massively integral. I think probably, you know, 48 of the years of my years of life have been fairly unboundaried. Through, you know, trying to fit in. So um, yeah, just when you are boundarying yourself, and respecting everybody else’s boundaries too, then everything works much more smoothly. 

Stuart: And those boundaries don’t have to be applied with an iron fist, but you can remind people of these things. And usually I find that when you are having to heavily underline the boundary, you’ve let it slip for too long. You’ve let the behavior go on for a little too long and it’s irritated you. So therefore, you feel like you do, coz the other person doesn’t know it’s been going on. That’s what you got to remind yourself from their point of view. They didn’t know that, or they shouldn’t know. If they do and they keep doing it, then you say goodbye to those people, especially if they’re customers.

Hannah: Yes. You’re like, “Off you sod.” I think also, you know, I’m a very intuitive person and sometimes I know, this sounds quite arrogant, sorry. Sometimes I kind of know what’s going on in my kids’ brains a little bit before they do. And that is a talent to some degree. So it’s one of the things that I pride myself on. But also for those around me, and this is unfortunate for them, kind of assume they’re the same. So, I’m expecting my husband to know exactly why I’m pissed off with him.

And he’s got a blank face like, “I don’t know. I just did nothing. I was in the other room on my own.” But yeah. So, yeah. Not assuming that everyone knows exactly what’s going on in your brain, just articulating the way that you feel and also dropping the mask at home. It makes your self-employment much more sustainable. 

Stuart: Like you touched it on it. you being self-employed allows us to work with our energies, work with our emotions. So much freedom. I know I was being bummed out on it earlier in this episode, but it’s still for the win for me 100%. I only started to live comfortably when I became self-employed and wasn’t locked into the expectations and the 9 to 5s, which I could never fit into. So, um, make the most of that because it’s a magnificent place to be if you got the right boundaries in place and those loved ones and support networks around you so that it’s sustainable for you.

One thing I would say is having a supportive spouse especially where finances may be arranged in the short term. Especially a frank conversation needs to be had early on about expectations because I’ve seen again in the opposite direction way too many relationships ruined by somebody going, “I’m self-employed.” And then them only ever wanting to do that at the cost of somebody else having a full-time job. So, I can see the push and the rub on both sides of that line. And that’s why I think that the self-employment side of it, you need that conversation. You need to have an honest appraisal and you need to set expectations that look like, “this is going to be tough for two, maybe three years. And these are my goals”, and then review them regularly with your partner so that they feel like they’re bought into them. Rather than hitching their wagon to a thing that they’re not quite sure what the hell’s going on.

Hannah: Money earner.

Stuart: Yeah, exactly. I think over the years Jemma sort of felt associated with the chaos rather than among it. But I’ve always tried my best to inform her where, you know, when we had the money issues, she knew it as soon as I knew it pretty much. You know, there’s a small grey area where you try and figure out the best way of softening the blows of everything.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Um, if I was going to give some takeaways, some tips, some ideas, I think firstly, I think you need to put some boundaries in place and agree with your partner about where and when you will discuss things. Mm. Even if it’s “look, I’m not going to put a container around it, but if I say to you, honey, not right now, there has to be that give and take”. Otherwise, you just corrode the goodwill in the relationship. Um, I also think that you also need to explain to your partner why you may necessarily need to just get stuff off your chest without any input back. I’m not looking for solutions. I’m not looking for a strategy or approval. I’m just asking you to bear witness to the info trauma dump that’s about to unfold.

Hannah: Just want you to record it in your eyeballs.

Stuart: I don’t need any input advice unsolicited. 

Hannah: Especially what I call “time machine advice”. “Well, if you’d done etc etc”.  Then I say “unless you have a fucking time machine and you can take me back to where I messed up last week and we can redo it,  then you need to shut up”. Sorry, that was a lot of swearing in one sentence, wasn’t it? can tell listeners that I’ve been there a few times.

Stuart: It’s got in touch with your inner trauma there. So, yeah. So, I think there’s a lot there for you to think about, take away, digest. How do you deal with your stress in your business, in your relationship? How do you deal with your neurodiversity? We’d love to know. Tell us. Tell us. Please do. Please get in touch. So, Hannah, next week What’s the topic?

Hannah: Well, Stuart, next week. I don’t know why I put that voice on. Well, it sounds a bit like….No. I’m not going to say who I thought I sounded like. Rewind, Hannah. Next week is a very dirty word for a lot of us. Delegation. Delegation. I was going to break into “That’s what you need. Delegation. That’s what you need”. Who was it? Can’t remember. Guinness Book of Records, wasn’t it?

Stuart: Oh, I missed Norris McWarter. Norris and Ross. 

Hannah: Yeah, Cliff. No, no, not Cliff Richard. Roy Castle. Oh, yeah. Roy Oh, I missed him on the trumpet. Yeah, sorry everybody. Oh, I love all that. I love a bit of Roy Castle.

Stuart: Me, too. Loved him in the carry on films. 

Hannah: Right. Sorry. Back to sensible Hannah. Back to “delegation for control. freaks and the overwhelmed”. Delegation is a thing, people. And we’re going to talk you through it next week.

Stuart: And we’re going to tell you the difference between delegation and abdication.

Hannah: Oh, yeah.

Stuart: Coz way too many times customers come to me and its abdication of responsibility thereafter, not delegation of the tasks.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: So, it’s a good one. You need to check back in with us next week and listen to that. Definitely. So, don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe. Tell anyone that you like, link to any topics that we’ve got multiples of on the website. You know, we’ve got well, we’re 20 odd episodes in now. So,

Hannah: 23, I think.

Stuart: 23. Yeah. So, there’s a lot to choose from. Tell us what you like. Tell us what you don’t like. Uh we’d love to hear from you. Share your top tips with us and get in touch. Don’t forget to sign up on businessodcast.com. Sign up on businessodcast.com and we will update you infrequently via email about what’s coming up. Um, thanks very much. Thanks for joining us and we’ll see you again next week. As always, goodbye.

Hannah: Bye-bye.

In ep 22 of The Business Oddcast, we deep dive on how you can get your needs met, and keeping lines of communication clear with others, maybe not so spicy.

We discuss the complexities of communicating needs and collaborating with neurotypical individuals within a business context.

We explore how we, the neurodivergent, often feel that advocating for ourself is like a “hostage negotiation,” leading to overexplaining or apologizing for our existence.

We try to move the needle from “please accommodate me” toward one of equity, helping others understand that “accommodations”, such as specific lighting or noise levels, are more than simple preferences but essential tools that make work possible and create a level playing field.
The topic of boundaries and building two-way trust in professional relationships is unpicked and discuss how a “catch and release” policy prevents the self employed person becoming “financial hostages” to clients who ignore boundaries or demand constant availability.

We trauma dump the lived experience of self-employment and highlight the benefits of self-employment for the neurodiverse.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com

Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.

Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

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TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to the Show
00:00:30 – Topic of the Week: Talking About Your Needs & Collaborating with Neurotypicals
00:01:00 – Advocate for yourself… but how?
00:02:40 – Default communication styles come with a cognitive load
00:05:32 – The 100% correct answer is not always the response people want
00:06:34 – Apologing for “too many questions”… don’t get offended, it may change things
00:09:57 – Demands to explain your needs before you undertsand them fully yourself
00:11:11 – WHY ARE YOU BEING SO EMOTIONAL? Hmmm??? HMMMM???
00:11:56 – Why Stuart is like he is…
00:13:17 – Self-awareness is the key to successful outcomes, for everyone
00:14:41 – Being aware of internal states is an issue, alexythimia and interospection
00:15:30 – REMEMBER “I need to think about this and come back to you”
00:16:20 – Yes or No can be so difficult why we need detail, detail, detail…
00:17:36 – Accomodations make life possible
00:18:38 – How do you meet your needs without over explaining or asking ALL the questions?
00:21:16 – Struggling with a quick answer and being given time to think
00:22:35 – Collaboration is a two way system – difference between equality and equity
00:25:27 – Why running and working with small businesses works for the ND
00:27:33 – Bad communication builds internal resistance – do not ignore the red flags
00:29:00 – Dealing with clashes in communication styles and adapting for others
00:31:56 – Managing the perceived balance of power and the personal cost
00:35:08 – How do you cope when your needs aren’t me and boundaries aren’t respected
00:36:33 – Boundaries, red flags and the crazy crowbar raccoon
00:41:55 – Respecting your own boundaries
00:43:30 – Collaborating with neurotypicals without masking, can it be done?
00:45:38 – What does good collaboration feel like?
00:49:01 – Build a reputation, give good advice, be authentic – create a process
00:52:29 – Tangents and takeaways
00:56:27 – We give you permission to get your needs met
00:57:08 – Next Week’s Topic – Being Self-Employed Without Wearing a Mask at Home
00:58:33 – LENGTH

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RESOURCES

https://here2help.uk/further-information/ – Fab resource and amazing organisation raising awareness and support for autistic suicide prevention. 
Information regarding Alexythimia and other helpful autism and autistic related factsheets on the link.

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
businessoddcast.com
hosts@businessoddcast.com

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Stuart: Hello and welcome to The Business Podcast. This is episode 22. I’m your host Stuart and this is Hannah.

Hannah: Hello.

Stuart: Fantastic. Hello Hannah. Now it’s February and February is a new topic and this month’s topic is connecting and communication which includes relationships, networking and collaboration in business. So Hannah, what’s the topic this week?

Hannah: Well, this is a topic that I really, really can relate to. It’s ‘talking about your needs and collaborating with neurotypicals.’

Stuart: Right? Yes,Let’s get into that. Definitely.

Hannah: It’s a really good one. Well, they’re all really good ones, but you know what I mean. Um, so a bit more about it really. I think sometimes as neurodiverse people, we can feel like talking about your needs feels a bit like a hostage negotiation or it certainly does for me. 

I know that we are told to advocate for ourselves. Of course, everybody just, you know, regardless of your neurotype needs to advocate for themselves, but I think as neurodiverse people, we are often told that. Um, and yet we’re not really told how to do that without overexplaining, apologising for existing, minimizing our needs, like I’m really sorry, but you know, we’ve all been there, right? Or feeling like we’re being difficult. How many times in a day do I say sorry? People bump into me. Sorry, you know, sorry I’m existing, you know, just like sorry, I take up space. Sorry, I’m just over here breathing. And I think also, not trying to generalize here, but I think often collaborating with neurotypicals can feel a bit one-sided, like we are doing all the adapting, masking, translating, emotional labour, and yet nothing really changes for them.

So today we’re looking at why sometimes the collaboration between neurodiverse and neurotypical people can break down. Also how to communicate your needs without the guilt and how to sort of protect your energy when the actual collaboration isn’t working out so well. So, this episode is about moving away from  “please please accommodate me, please accept me”.

Stuart: The people pleasing is strong in this one.

Hannah: Oh my gosh, it really is. But we’re aiming in this episode to take our listeners, watchers, towards how do we work well together. And looking at it that way rather than—Yeah, you get it. You get it.

Stuart: Yeah. No, absolutely. 100% get this. Um, it is hard. It is hard especially when the default communication style is a specific way and your brain doesn’t necessarily work well like that and you accommodate. And this is a term that I’ve sort of mentioned in our house. Uh I’m very keen to make sure that the cognitive load is equal. Because, you know, my wife does a lot of household duties. But it’s not just the doing of the household duties. It’s keeping track of it all. Who’s washing’s been done? What load needs doing the next time? Has the dishwasher been emptied? Are the floors clean? 

Now you can say “Stuart, well you can do all of that”. I can absolutely 100% but my specialisms lie in other areas. So if you don’t want all your whites pink and I did it—only once. You’ll only do that once. But do you know what I mean? It’s like the skill sets that we have lie in different areas and I would no more expect Gemma to dig a trench in the garden. But when it needs doing I’m quite happy to do that. That’s where my skill set lies. So, that collaboration thing can be really hard when the other side is not picking up as much of the cognitive load for the tasks that are being done and you’re constantly adapting and underload. I find that very difficult. And the communication styles where it seems to be there are these unspoken rules. 

You know, people talk about it when socialising. In business, it’s exactly the same. And if you’re not picking up what the other person is telegraphing poorly, because let’s face it, you know, communication is two ways obviously. But if the other person is bad at communicating, full stop and then on top of it, their communication style is different and you don’t get it. I’ve often been in a situation where through no fault of my own, I find myself entirely in the wrong. And you’re like, I made all the best efforts I could to not end up here, and yet here we are again. where I have taken what somebody has said literally, done exactly what they’ve asked me, and then I missed out on all the subtext. For some reason, you know, it wasn’t clearly defined or they asked me what they wanted to do or they wanted me to do and I understood it I repeated it back to them but actually that wasn’t what they wanted. The outcome wasn’t what they wanted. But they didn’t know how to ask or don’t realise that they’re communicating with somebody who will necessarily talk about things in a literal way. 

And I’ll give you an example of that. So there was a picture on one of my social feeds and it was somebody showing a picture of their ceiling. A large part of the plaster had fallen away and they asked the simple question “what caused this?” And everybody was going oh it’s water ingress, it’s age, it’s…and I gave a one-word answer coz it was the correct and only answer. ” And it was “gravity”. This is what it was. Gravity caused it. 

I think everyone should do a bit of coding because then you understand logic. And if you put garbage in, you get garbage out. And for a lot of the time, that’s what’s happening with me. Customers put garbage in, they get garbage out. If they accurately programmed the autistic me, they’d get exactly what they wanted. And I find that that is one of the biggest challenges I face.

Hannah: Yeah, I can completely relate to that. I find in the work that I do that I’m often apologising for asking what would be deemed too many questions and sometimes that can be interpreted by the client as “does she not get it?” Whereas I’m saying I need every last piece of detail and then you will get my best work. But if you just write a blog about something, I’m going to need to keep asking you, well, what are you trying to do? You know, I need to deep dive, not because I’m incompetent. I need to deep dive because my level of detail is amazing, but I need, like you said, I need the good stuff to go in before I can produce the good stuff. So, but it can come across to a neurotypical client as like, “why does she keep asking so many questions?”

Stuart: And also, I find that sometimes I need to ask clarifying basic questions and the person gets offended and you’re like no no no this isn’t about you this is entirely about me and I need to clear up these things so that we are not working on false assumptions so that I don’t take the assumptions differently. Because I have different understanding, different knowledge, different base information and a different skill set. There’s many, many times I’ve spoken to somebody and asked some basic questions and we discover that actually what they were asking me to do was not necessarily the outcome that they wanted. They’d made some baseline assumptions about certain things and or other people had told them, “Oh, you can’t do this or you can’t do that”. And you end up clarifying by asking a few simple questions and they go, “Oh, no, no, no, that’s not what we want. Okay, great. Let’s get to what you want then”. And I’m not saying I’m a magician with a magic wand, but—

Hannah: You kind of are!

Stuart: There’s a lot of times I’ve discussed stuff with people and we’ve got down to the grassroots of it and what they’re asking isn’t actually what they’re asking, if you see what I mean.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I mean, I’m very similar. Sometimes in the work that I do, somebody will come to me and say, “I need a monthly blog written”. And I always clarify why. And they say, “Because I just need one”. And I dig down to, “Oh, actually, you need more clients”. Yeah. So, somebody somewhere, Dave somewhere, sorry Dave, it might not be you if you’re listening, has told them, “Yeah, you need a monthly blog”. And there’s no denying—I won’t go down that rabbit hole—that that’s a really good content idea. 

But I need to know as a strategist if that is the perfect solution in their budget and time to get to where they need to go. So they often look surprised when I say, “What are you actually trying to achieve here?” Because it isn’t to write a blog. What are you doing? Why are you doing—you know, all of that stuff? Because otherwise they’ve googled it and decided they need an email campaign or they—when people say to me I need a cold email campaign. I always say I will never do that for you. I will never ever do that for you, for many reasons I won’t go into here. But yeah there’s so many better ways to achieve that. Um i mean that moves quite nicely into the next kind of thing really—the ideas. 

So I think as many of us as spicy folk are expected to explain our needs before we’ve actually had the chance to fully understand them ourselves, you know, because when we need to communicate our needs, neurotypicals often need us to name that. But sometimes we don’t really know what that is, and that can be really hard for us. 

Stuart: Oh, 100%. The worst thing to happen is in a meeting, somebody turns to me and goes, “How do you feel about that?”

Yes, can I swerve back. Can I do some of my own research and come back to you or if you want my raw opinion, it might not necessarily work for you at this moment. Edit it first before I download it into your ears. I mean, it—as you know, you and I as late diagnosed folk as well, I’ve had so many—I’m sure we both have had so many years of masking those needs that I’m still a working in progress when it comes to fully having the confidence to share them because there’s a big part of my brain going “don’t be too needy”.

Stuart: Oh, it’s had bad outcomes for you before. When you’re honest, you get “why are you so emotional? What’s wrong? Oh, Hannah rein it in”. You know—I won’t go down there. Whatever the facet is you’re exposing. They—

Hannah: It’s too much. Yeah.

Stuart: They’re—they need um sunglasses.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely.

Stuart: Turn the volume down.

Hannah: And I think there’s, you know, with that comes a pressure to kind of justify every request. I mean, I think you are—I’m going to be bold here and say I think you are a lot better—for the—want of a better word—than I am at, you know, you don’t over justify your requests or or I don’t see that so much. I think you seem to have more confidence in your requests because maybe—well—

Stuart: Well, it’s taken—it’s taken time. No, but it’s taken time. Um Hannah, it’s not what—what I have decided and I decided this quite early on. Um I won’t get into all of my backstory and it’s not—not the place right now, but I decided very early on that I just was done with it all. I was just—I—I’m sorry, but if you need me—that’s why I think I feel a lot of kinship with um females and feminism, you know. “Well, put a smile on your face, love. Cheer up, love”. Exactly. Yeah. I’ve had that said to me on so many occasions and it’s like I don’t have the bandwidth for my face if my brain is doing the work. Just back off. And if anybody says something like that to me, I’m sorry. You’re just not in my rolodex. I would exit you from the planet if I could. Your oxygen privileges have been revoked. Um no, that bit dramatic, but I have reached a point where I’m just not willing to put up with somebody who’s not willing to work with me, literally work with me. And so if I say I need it to be this way or I need to be this way and they’re not happy about that, then there’s only one outcome and that’s my sanity.

Hannah: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And do you think that kind of—I guess over time that’s come about or you’ve honed a lot of those skills by improving your self-awareness, accepting yourself for the full you have in all their raw forms?

Stuart: I know I can be a bit pushy. I know I can be a bit aloof. I know I can be interrogative with my questioning. Um, but that’s not because I want to see bad outcomes. That’s because I know I need a level of detail like you’ve just said and I need to put out some fires. There will be some flashing red lights that if I don’t ask the questions, they’ll be there and it will just stop me from moving forward until I get some kind of answer. So, it’s almost like I know how to manage my brain and the customer has to accept that I’m going to be doing the thing in a way that allows my brain to do what they want with the outcomes they have discovered.

Hannah: Yeah, that makes so much sense because the point is they have come to you because they know that the work that you do is a really amazing level. and they know that. But to get to that output, they need to put, like you said earlier, they need to give you all the information you need to process to be able to do that work. 

Stuart: It’s also very difficult when you know, okay, we’re going to name a couple of traits that people might experience like the alexithymia and the interoception. If you don’t know what emotional state or how you are, um I find it very difficult sometimes, you know, to check in with myself. I’m like, “how do I feel about that?” You know, if I’m put on the spot of “how do you feel about that?”—Don’t know. Haven’t had a chance to formulate where I land on the spectrum of yes, no, or what my actual opinion is on it. And over the years, I have regretted time and time again giving short in-the-moment responses that I’ve later gone, “why did I say yes to that?” I should have said, “At the very least, I need to think about this and come back to you”.

Hannah: Yeah, that’s a sentence I’m gonna start using this year for sure.

Stuart: It really frustrates some people coz they really want it, especially in this day and age where everything is immediate. But I just work with people that know that if I say that I’m coming back to them, oh, I will come back to them and probably with a level of detail and questions that they’re going to regret.

Hannah: A sheet, a form to fill out.

Stuart: Look, the thing is I always like to think that when I go back with the questions, the questions lead me to an answer that I’ve already got, but I’m just checking that that answer is exactly the thing that the customer really does want, not just the thing they think they want. It’s a difficult one. It really is.

Hannah: Yeah. No, I can completely relate to it. A client yesterday sent me an email about, you know, she was looking at a potential course that she might do, but it overlaps with a lot of the work that we’re doing. And the question she asked was, “Do you think this is a good idea or not?” And I thought, “Oh, get yourself some popcorn, have a sit down, get a cup of tea ready, coz my reply can’t be yes or no”. And I broke it down. 

But I started, and this is where it relates to our topic. The first sentence I put was, “You weren’t expecting a short answer, were you? Haha”. And then broke it down and actually she loved it. She replied, and said, “Thank you so much for your thorough, intuitive response. This is really helpful”. Even though she thought she just needed yes or no, coz I think over the years I have had unfortunately, not in recent months, some feedback like “it doesn’t need to be in this much detail, Hannah”. Or “you’re overthinking it”. I mean, how many times do we hear that? You’re overthinking it, Hannah. I’m not overthinking it. I’m thinking it the way that my brain thinks it. Um, and that’s okay.

Stuart: Oh, no. We come back to the—the whole thing of their underthinking it 99% of the time.

Hannah: Oh my gosh.

Stuart: But this brings us to the preference and the needs. These accommodations are not necessarily to make life comfortable for us. They’re there to make life possible. And that’s a difference. Yeah. You know, there’s a reason why certain things have to be a certain way. And if you don’t let me have those things that way, then I can’t do what it is you need me to do. So therefore, it is not a preference.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: A preference is, oh, I, you know, prefer a cup of coffee when I get into work in the morning. But having low light and the ability to adjust the volume in my immediate vicinity means I can’t work in an office. I just can’t. I’ve tried it. Doesn’t work. Drove me nuts. Distraction after distraction after distraction and conversations along the lines of, “Why aren’t you keeping up with everybody else?”

Hannah:  Coz I’m better. Oh no, I’m going to get—that’s it. Now I’m cancelled. The business is over.

Stuart: So, how do you share your needs? 

Hannah: Gosh, what? Without over-explaining and apologising and saying, “I’m really sorry”. And yeah, yeah. Sorry for taking up space. Sorry for asking all the questions.

Stuart: Being me. In some circumstances, it’s needy. In other circumstances, they see you as dim or—or not keeping up. And quite a lot of the time, people moving at a speed you’re like, “Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. What about these details that I can just see red flags immediately because you’re deciding to do X Y Z?” How do you cope with all that?

Hannah: If I’m going to be honest, I’m still a work in progress, Stu, when it comes to sort of advocating for my own needs without overexplaining and apologizing and all of that stuff. Um, I remember a good friend of mine that’s very wise once saying, “Did you realise every time you call me up, you always preface it with ‘it’s only me’?” And she said, “When you say that, it’s a really negative way to frame yourself. What do you mean it’s only you?” It’s like you’re making an apology for the fact you’re calling. And I know—I appreciate that’s a bit of a tangent, but that has been a theme in my life for a long time. And I’m not saying that for any pity. It’s just a fact. And the last few years I’ve definitely improved on it. Um the overexplaining tends to drive me nuts because sometimes you like “how do I explain this in a succinct way that’s not going to just sound so needy”. it just—especially when everybody else is just nodding and going along and you’re like uh—am I just going to have to—can we do—could I ask, you know—

Stuart: No, absolutely that! I was in an online meeting a while ago and there was a lady from a marketing agency there and the client asked us both a question, we were talking about SEO for the website, and the marketing lady said, “Yeah, that could work”. And I was like, “Oh, that ‘yeah, that could work’. What even is that? That’s a—that’s not an interesting response in my brain”. And I was like, “I can’t give you a ‘yeah, that’, I can’t. I can’t give you something so vague. I’m either going to have to say I need to look into this. I can’t just give you a yes and no or just fluff it with a ‘yeah, whatever'”. That’s not the way that my brain works. And I’m glad that it doesn’t work like that. 

Stuart: I think I’ve also been lucky to work with people who have over the years realised that I can struggle with a quick response and at least with one customer’s situation I’ve been in a meeting where they obviously saw that I was almost in physical pain coz somebody was haranguing me and trying to get me to either prove or deny what they were saying. And I was like, I need to go away and take what you’ve told me rather than argue with you here with facts I’m not fully conversant with. And the person chairing the meeting stepped in and said, “We’re not going to resolve this in this meeting. Stuart, would you like to take this offline? And come back when you’ve prepared answers for us?”. Was just brilliant management. Just somebody who spotted that this was just becoming an unproductive argument in a meeting and there was obviously some research that needed to be done and the two people who were clashing over it needed to go and sort it out outside the meeting. And that said to me over the years was just telling somebody that I’ve noted what you’ve said. I will investigate and circle back and actually doing that makes a huge difference if they can trust your process.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 

Stuart: That brings us on to the next point that collaboration is a two-way system. It’s not an accommodation theatre. It’s not, you know, a whole list of things that you need to do before I’ll even get going. And, this is one of the things that really frustrates me. There’s a wider conversation in society at the moment with regards to neurodiversity and education and all of that. And this is the point. We’re not asking for accommodations so that we can live a cushy life, feet up, everyone else pulls their weight. We’re asking for accommodations just so we can get through the day.

Hannah: We just want to be on a level playing field, right? We just want to—

Stuart: Yeah. And this is where equity and equality get mixed up because equality is giving everyone the same thing. So, okay, let’s give everyone noise cancelling headphones. Well, yes, that is equality, but it’s not equity because the kids who actually need those resources will then therefore be denied them because everybody’s got them and we’ve got to fund all of that and yeah, do you know what I mean? Rather than going, there are some kids who need some noise cancelling headphones. Let’s just give it to them. Move on with your day. We don’t look at engineers and go, “Oh, do you need ear defenders? Ah bless. Stan over there has been working in the, you know, in the industry and is completely deaf, but he’s never worn them”. It drives me absolutely potty these non-conversations which don’t actually have any value other than political ends.

Hannah: No. And—and don’t you think in society there is an element of “it’s not fair”. When I had a chat with somebody years ago, one of my kids works much better with ear pods in their ears with a low-level music. It’s just the way that they like to work and they’re allowed to do that—or were allowed to do that—at college. And this person who has a son that doesn’t need that said, “It’s not very fair though, is it? Why is he allowed to listen to music and the other kids aren’t?” And I said, “Well, would your child benefit? Would they be able to focus better with ear pods?” And she said, “No, not at all”. I said, “But so then you’re upset about something that would not benefit you. That’s really weird. Like—I want them. Okay. Will they help you? No, they’ll make it worse. What? You just want them coz somebody else…I can’t get on that soap box”. But, you know what I mean? “It’s not fair”. Well, that’s just weird. It’s not fair that actually the environment that these people are working in is so noisy or so distracting that actually some people need an accommodation. It’s just bizarre, isn’t it? I won’t get on that soap box, but you know what I’m saying.

Stuart: But you see, that’s where small business I found really works for me because the people who will accommodate, will allow, will adapt, are happy with the outcomes and time scales, etc. Um, they gravitate towards you. And the projects where you get to the end of and you go—for whatever reason, this left me with less energy than I got from it. Um, they tend to go away. You tend to get rid of those customers. You know, 30 years in, I see all the red flags on the way in. As soon as somebody phones me up and goes like, “We need this done tomorrow”. And then sends me a long laundry list of all of the things that they have decided on me doing by, you know, insert ridiculous deadlines. We had one just before Christmas. I got a phone call from a very good contact saying, “We need a WordPress website for a customer who’s come on to us, but they’ve sent us a load of things and we’re not sure what it is”. And I read down this list and it was quite clear that they had put their website into a piece of software or somebody had done some report and they’d listed a whole load of things and you’re like—there’s context around every single question and if I have to now explain why that might not be a good spend for your money and you’re just like “don’t care just do it”—that’s not a good fit coz I’m going to be doing work that I’m like “this is just total waste of time effort and energy”.

Hannah: And that’s bizarre isn’t it coz they’re coming to you who knows a lot about this saying “this is what you need to do”. Because actually I know a lot about this. So maybe I should have a look and decide whether—you know—if you’re going to just give me a to-do list. I mean firstly my PDA is like “nope”. I get a list and I’m like “oh that’s not happening for 2 months”. Throw that out because I can’t be told what to do. And I don’t mean that in a kind of defiantly obnoxious way but the moment I feel like I’m being told…you know how that works.

Stuart: But there’s that internal resistance for sure. And that happens as well though with bad communication because in your head you’re like, “I need this accommodation” or “I need to ask this question” or “I need this presented in a way that is different to the way that you’ve presented it”. That’s not the way my brain works. If they’re not prepared to work with you on that, they’re not going to be prepared to work with you in a collaborative way going forward. And that for me is a red flag. So I make sure that I make my demands for my accommodations very early on. And use them as a filter coz if somebody doesn’t want to work that way, it’s never going to work. So, they might as well know that day one. And yes, yes, the money goes away with the customer, but with it goes away all the stress attached to that money.

Hannah: Yeah. Because that whole project would just be a masking exercise, right? When I’ve worked with clients—I’m still not fully perfected on this. So, I hope none of my clients are listening. Um,you know,I occasionally have bits of work where I’m having to pretend that I’m not exactly who I am. And that’s frustrating for me. And like you said, the money goes away, if you turn that project down. But then so does all of that emotional drainage and stress and, you’ve just said that, but dear me. 

So,  Stuart, what about when—how do you find it when communication styles clash? You know, like for example, we’ve talked about the way that we can as neurodiverse people be quite direct. Or some of us can. Looking at the sort of direct and indirect communication styles and how that can clash because that can, or certainly has in my working life and my personal life, completely caused chaos. Um yeah, it’s that miscommunication really, isn’t it?

Stuart: Well, it’s also building up a relationship. You know, trust is built over time. I will adapt, but again, it’s knowing that you’re adapting and what the toll is and how you recover from that. Not just endless giving and giving and giving because you just will burn out. You will burn out, fall over, and need to recover. And I’ve been there so many times that uh I now know what all the warning signs are and I just—it’s a red rope around my time. I just don’t allow people to—I think abuse is not necessarily too strong in some contexts, but it’s almost like you’re colluding in your own abuse by allowing the person to make you mask and do the thing in the way that they want it to be done. And I’m just “no, I’m sorry”. I’ll adapt in the short term, but there has to be some give and take. How do you cope when a customer is not being difficult, but it’s just ignoring your needs in the relationship?

Hannah: Oh, that’s a really good question. So, how do I cope when my—I think I’m getting better at it, but I’m still not great at advocating my needs. But I have, for example, when we’re looking at some of the communication styles, and I’m sure you have your own—well, you must have your own preferences, too. I think everybody does. But for me, I’m not great at on the spot quizzing. So, I would always pick a, for example, I would always pick an email response over a phone call. I mean, I’ve had in the past people, you know, we’ve done a little bit of a back and forth. “I want a phone call”. Well, actually, personally, I’m better explaining my needs in this detail in an email. So, how do I cope with stuff like that? Like I said, I’m getting better at it, but I have to advocate for the best ways of communication for me. For example, I prefer if we’re going to have a call, I need it to be a FaceTime or actually probably ideally just an online meeting. I need to be able to see their face. It’s the way I communicate better. Actually, you’ll get the best out of me if we communicate that way. So..

Stuart: Well, you see, this comes to a really interesting point and I see this quite a lot. The business owner feels subservient to the person with the money and the work and I don’t have that view. That landscape doesn’t exist in my head. All I see is a problem that somebody wants solved and if you want that problem solved by me, this is how I do that. And if that’s not what you want, bye. Very quickly, very simply. There is a financial complication, you know, because the money goes away or whatever. But that’s why if you do have to do something and you’re not happy with it, make sure that you know that it’s for either a finite amount of time or a project length or—I think where the burnout comes is where you don’t find a way out and you suddenly feel like you’re in a prison. And I’ve been that person. I’ve been there. and I’m just unwilling to go there because that’s not a good outcome for me in my life. So, if somebody rocks up with all the money in the world and goes, “I want it done like this and I want it done by then and this is how you do it”. No, there’s way too much personal cost to earning that money.

Hannah: I think I’ve had in the past, and I’m glad to say that I haven’t had it recently, but in the past, I’ve had clients where I’ve just kept hoping that they’ll go away. And not being aware that actually I have the power to do that, right? Coz I could just say, “I think we’ve come to a natural end of this project,” but you know, I’d be like, “Oh, please, I hope they don’t ask me for any more work”. And then they send me another email to say, “Could you just do this page on this website?” And I’m like—it’s ridiculous. As I say it out loud now, I’m like, “Oh crap, I really hoped they were gone”. I’ve done that with relationships as well, but that’s another episode. 

You know, just hoping they’ll go away. Get the message. Oh, Hannah, but you actually have the power just to say I don’t want to do—you know—you don’t have to say I don’t want to do that work, but “I don’t have the capacity at the moment”. You know, “No,” as you’ve told me many times, is a full sentence. It’s funny, isn’t it? That whole idea that, you know, because that jangly, that carrot, that ching ching, the cash, like, oh, there’s a bit more money in, you know, and if—if you’re having a rough month or whatever, or you could—you’ve already spent that money in your brain, which is often my case—then you’re like, “just okay, just one more bit of pain”.

Stuart: Yeah, just one more half day of pain.

Hannah: But then, you know, as I’m saying it out loud, it’s like a light bulb appeared above my head like future Hannah’s like, “Oh, well done” 

Stuart: But then you’re just a financial hostage. And how does that work? Suddenly my PDA kicks in. It’s like, “No, you won’t have that over me. I’m not going to be your money bitch”. I’d rather be poor. I’d rather have to write to five people and tell them why they’re not getting paid than deal with your malarkey. Um, so how do you cope when your needs aren’t met, your boundaries are not respected, and there’s push back? How do you cope in those situations? Can you think of an example?

Hannah: Well, Stu, one would have to assume that I’ve got any boundaries. Ah, I do. I do. Um, Like I’ve said really, I am getting better at them. And I have, you know, I’ve recently put in a boundary where somebody was messaging me on the weekend about a work thing and I just didn’t reply. Whereas in previous times, the moment it pings up, my brain doesn’t go, “It’s a Saturday night, Hannah. You’re not in work mode”. My brain goes, “Must answer, otherwise they’ll find somebody else”. But actually this time I was like, “Okay, I’ve seen it coz I’m, you know, it’s like a squirrel to me when my phone lights up and there’s a message. But it pings up and then I’m like “oh okay that’s a work thing” and I didn’t reply and I didn’t need a big explanation I didn’t need to send them a reason that was enough of a gentle boundary that was comfortable to me. And in the future I will aim for boundaries where actually I would have followed that up and asked them not to message me on the weekend. But it’s a first step. Isn’t it. 

Stuart: Or don’t reply? They might get the hint. Also, this is a major red flag for me. When I express a boundary and they get triggered and then there’s a negative response. I don’t immediately go into the, “Oh no, I’ve made them upset”. I go into the, “Oh, that’s very interesting. How do we  fuck around with that a bit more?” And then the chaos raccoon with the crowbar turns up and I would send like, so if I got that at midnight, I’d send them a response at 3:00 a.m. “Do you want to carry on with this coz I’m up at 3?” A voicemail. “Oh, sorry. It’s a bum dial. Sorry. Oh, I did it again. Moved in my sleep”. So, you know, I’m not one for playing games. But if I’ve explained to somebody very very clearly, look, you know, my office hours are 10 until 5. If you’ve got an emergency where, you know, we do web hosting, if your website’s down, just send me a text that you’ve sent me a message and I will go and immediately raise a ticket. Yeah, I appreciate that’s the nature of the beast that I’m working in. But if we’re working on a project and something can wait till a Monday morning and they send me a message late on a Friday, yeah, that’s just never going to get answered. And if they push back, like so on the Monday or whatever I get something like “you didn’t respond”. I’m like yes it was the weekend and it was not urgent and I’m not your bitch regardless of—you could not pay me enough—or maybe you could actually that’s a different episode. 

No, I think that if you express a boundary and I’m not going to get into whether the boundary is reasonable or not or whatever, but most people are rational and are decent humans. If you say to somebody  “look, you know, don’t respond to this immediately, but I just need to share this bit of information” or, you know, “this project on the podcast” or whatever, blah. I 100% do not expect a reaction, a response or a reply immediately. That’s, you know, it’s delayed communication. It’s asynchronous. That’s the entire beauty of it. Let’s use that and to be able to be present when we’re able to be present. And so if any customer ever sort of steps over a boundary like that, it’s just a red flag and they will be asked very politely the first time. Then they will be given the underlined version of that and then there will be penalties. There will be penalties. Paying penalties.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Yeah. Paying penalties if you want me my service level means that I’m going to have to change it for your unique circumstance. “Responses at the weekend come with a £100 cost”.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: You know, I have to charge for my time. So, I’ve got a customer who’s a plumber and his prices are on his website and on a bank holiday like over Christmas you called him out for £250 an hour.

I was like, “But Mark, aren’t you worried that people won’t call you?” And he’s like, “Exactly. Yeah. I don’t want to be called Christmas Eve. So, if they do call me and it genuinely is an emergency and I can fix it, I am charging appropriately for the inconvenience to me”. And I think way more small business owners need to understand that a lot of the stuff we do is time bound and time sensitive and project sensitive and you know other people are involved and I get all of that, but really do you need a text on a Saturday? No, not going to happen. I’m not going to respond unless you tell me your website’s down, your emails have stopped or whatever, and then I’ll go and investigate. But I’ve had way too many family things. Oh god, I’m just running through the list—I apologize to you previously, Gemma, for the maniac. Oh, don’t. That was a whole thing. Just don’t. 

But yeah, you know, when I’m out of office now, I’m out of office. And over Christmas recently I didn’t dip into my emails for 2 weeks. Went in, had a look through, there was a couple of minor, no customer emails. But one was from a supplier asking about a thing which was not important and another was from a contact who was asking about another project—again not urgent or immediate. And I think that’s having good processes in place and good boundaries where people know it’s not even worth emailing him. He’s never going to see it and it’s going to be buried in two weeks of emails, so we’ll wait. Um, so again, you know, it’s being respectful of your own boundaries as well, coz ultimately if you don’t say to somebody, “this is a boundary and this is what I expect of our communications and our working relationship,” how do they know?

Hannah: Yeah. I’m not very good at respecting my own boundaries. I mean, as I said earlier on in this episode, you know, I sent an email back to a lady that had asked a kind of yes-no question. That was last week, you know, that was during time that I was meant to be off work. Um, but the problem for me is I couldn’t not read it. Not coz I wanted to be in work mode, but once I saw a work email, I got, “Oh my god, oh my god, something terrible’s happened”. Then I read it and I was like, “Oh, It’s nothing terrible. It’s just your average work email”. But then I had formulated the answer at that point. I’ve got to do it. And no part of my brain in that entire process was like, “Hello, you’re on holiday. You need to stop doing this, Hannah”. My brain went click work mode. Okay. And the robot—you know what I mean? I got into work mode and I could have either made notes and then replied in my work time—But that’s a waste of a lot of my energy. 

Sometimes, I’m getting better, sometimes I will reply and then schedule it. Like I’ll get an email over the weekend. I always do sadly. I will reply, but I’ll schedule it to go back to them Monday so they still get the message. Actually, she’s not replying on a Sunday. I did. I did, but I scheduled it so that they got the impression that I didn’t. Um, this brings us really nicely to the next kind of point of ‘collaborate’. How do we collaborate? If either of us have got any tips, how do we collaborate with neurotypicals without masking ourselves into some form of oblivion? Because the reality is sadly, or I find this anyway, the reality is it’s easier sometimes. Or I’m rewarded when I’m masking because I’m more mainstream. So, there is less having to make excuses or having to explain myself, but actually that’s not sustainable. 

I know that’s an awful thing to admit on a neurodiverse—you know. I’m not suggesting to everybody listening that you need to mask. That’s the thing we’re trying to avoid. And yet sometimes for me, I’ll admit I’ve gone down what I think is the easy option, but it really isn’t because you can mask in that moment. It feels like a quick win and yet you’re paying the price for that masking because you’re not being your real self, are you? 

Stuart: So, if you’re 100% masked 100% of the time, that’s not going to have good outcomes. I—well, for myself, I found that that didn’t have good outcomes. Also, having no mask 100% of the time will also lead to no good outcomes or—yeah—not necessarily all the outcomes you want. Point to it is, and I think this is where my revelation has come. This comes from the Buddha thing: don’t live your life at the extremes, live somewhere in between. The mask is very useful sometimes. Sometimes if it’s a tool that you can slip on and use. I have a particular mask that I can use which is particularly good in front of an audience.

Hannah: Okay, Stuart. So, here it is. The ultimate question. I’m going to have a think about this while you’re answering. What does good collaboration actually feel like for you?

Stuart: I tell you what good collaboration feels like. It feels personally rewarding. It’s not something that you get to the end of and go, “Thank God that’s over”. You might think, “Oh, thank God I don’t have to do that, you know, hard work, or that was tough, or, you know, that took a lot out of me”. But ultimately, some of the hardest jobs I’ve done recently have been really rewarding to see the customer go, “Yeah, that’s exactly what we wanted. That was brilliant. You nailed it. You threaded the needle between budget customer expectation, user interface, all of the unseen said things that we kind of alluded to, but you have nailed”. 

I think for me, that’s what good collaboration feels like. That the customer almost gives you a minimal brief because they know that there are things that they’re going to have to ask you that they don’t know to ask you. And that the reason that they’re giving you the brief is that you kind of read the mood of the room and go, “Oh, okay. This is what they’re trying to achieve”. You know, it’s a little bit like walking onto a—if you’re not a fan of cars, then you know, buying a car is a stressful situation. So, when you walk onto the lot and go, “We need a car”. And the person then says, “Oh, what sort of car?” And then narrows it down, and then you get a really good car, a great deal you can live with. That’s the sort of collaboration, you know—it’s not without its challenges. But by the same token the other person is working towards your best ends as much as you are working towards their best ends.

Hannah: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me and I was going to say good collaboration for me, and you’ve touched on this really, it’s that element of trust. But that two-way trust. 

You know, the person I’m working with trusts that I’ve got their best interests at heart and that I know what I’m doing but at the same time they trust that I respect their opinion on stuff and—do you know what I mean? It’s that really comfy middle ground. 

I’m not great with clients that just say, “you know what you’re doing crack on with it” cuz I’m like “ooh that brief is so big it’s going to take me the rest of my life to work it out. You know what the brief is just do something Hannah”. What? No. No. I need detail but I don’t need the detail where—like you said earlier—you get a to-do list. 

You know, you could give a todo list to anybody with a base level of ability to follow a list. So it’s that middle ground for me which is really reliant on that kind of trust relationship between you and the client. You know, hopefully for a lot of small business owners their new clients are coming through as recommendations, where they’ve seen the work that you’ve done or someone’s told them about how good you are. So hopefully that trust is already—or a good part of that trust is already there.

Stuart: Oh yeah. And I also think that your reputation as somebody that delivers the goods is something that will be naturally disseminated. I struggle a lot with small business marketing because a lot of the time I see people doing a lot of marketing and they’re not doing the basics. They’re doing pay per click and it’s like “that is not the shortcut you think it is. That’s the cherry on the top of an already existing great name moving forward that people trust and want to work with. And then you know you amplify that message through social media and advertising.”

Hannah: I wonder if it’s the same for a lot of our listeners. I work with a lot of small businesses and a big part of that relationship is that reassurance. It’s almost like therapy, you know, like you touched on it—the size of the problem and reassuring them. And that comes back to my point about trust really. For me a really good collaboration is them. I remember my husband saying once to be an expert —coz I think I was having a kind of a moment where I didn’t feel like I was good enough at something— my husband said “to be an expert in something you just need to know more than they do”. So I have that attitude with a lot of my clients and don’t get me wrong if you’re listening and you’re one of my clients I do have a lot of knowledge—just to caveat that. But my point being you do know more than them at what you’re doing otherwise they wouldn’t have come to ask you to do the thing that you’re doing for them.

Stuart: 100% agree.

Hannah: I forget that sometimes. And it’s really integral to remind ourselves and anybody that listening. A lot of my work with a client is not reminding them that I know more than they do coz that would be obnoxious. But it is reassuring them you know and managing if somebody’s like “oh my god I’ve imploded my website” you’re not emailing them back or calling them back and saying “you’re a dick”. You’re like “okay firstly this is fixable right”. 

Stuart: You’re managing that kind of calm hand on the tiller.

Hannah: And to be fair it took me a little while to accept that unless I knew absolutely everything I wasn’t an expert and that I just need to know a little bit more than they do.

Stuart: But I think it’s more fundamental than that, Hannah. It’s not that you don’t know how to solve it. You have a process of how to solve it to get to an end solution. And I think that for me that’s where customers’ trust lies. That “whenever I ask Stuart, he seems to solve my problem”. And when the problem comes in, I sometimes have to go and do further research or I might have to go and talk to my team or—do you know what I mean? It’s not like I can say it’s click-work. Sometimes it’s a little more complicated than that and that’s where I think their trust is built. Because he might be weird but he does what he says he’s going to do. You’re a safe pair of hands in that situation, aren’t you? So, they know from previous experience that you’re reliable in that. So, I think we’ve talked around this quite significantly with the odd tangent. 

Hannah: Sorry about that.

Stuart: Hey, the odd podcast is built on tangents.

Hannah: Oh my gosh, that is literally my middle name. 

Stuart: So, what takeaways do we have for our listeners?

Hannah: So, there’s quite a few, hasn’t there? But I won’t rattle them off. But the top three. I think if we share our needs as well as we can, the outcomes—it improves the outcomes for everyone involved. So, that for me is really integral—being true to yourself and sharing your needs with your counterpart. And remembering that you’re not difficult for needing different things. You’re not like—you know—”oh Hannah’s a pain in the ass” coz she—it doesn’t make you wrong. And actually when you share your needs and you make that client or that person you’re collaborating with understand what you need and—and remind yourself that you don’t need to ex—make excuses for that. It’s just a kind of—you know—it’s—it’s no different—I have back problems. If I go somewhere, I say, “Oh, I need that sort of chair or I take a cushion or whatever”. Because—and I don’t say, “Oh, sorry. I’m so awkward with my back problems”. Because it’s just a thing. So, our neurodiversity is no different. We don’t have to say, “Sorry, I’m overly thorough” or, “Sorry, coz you’re not overly thorough. Sorry, I have to ask a few questions”. That just means really thorough. Who doesn’t like that in a business context? So, um yeah, that would definitely be another one of mine. Any from you from a kind of takeaway or have we got any tips that we could share?

Stuart: Yeah, I think that being aware of your own needs is paramount. Knowing what you want out of the relationship, you know, just because It’s one of financial reward and value exchange doesn’t mean to say that you can’t put some rules around how you show up, what you expect, and how you work best. Hey, look, you got to think of yourself as an instrument. You know. 

Hannah: I want to be a cello, by the way. 

Stuart: Well, I’m a Stradivarius, by the way. Very expensive violin. But the point to it is that instruments need to be calibrated. It needs to be within spec. It needs to have all of the various inputs on it that need inputting to work. And if it doesn’t, it gives a sub-optimal performance. Well, you as a human being are absolutely no different. You put too many garbage inputs and you’re just going to get garbage output.

Hannah: Well—that kind of comes back to boundaries, doesn’t it? We’ve touched on that a lot in this episode. But the boundaries are integral really, aren’t they, to defining what that working relationship is going to be like.

Stuart: 100%. If your needs are not being met and worse than that they’re being ignored, you’re expressing them distinctly clearly and repeatedly, then it’s time to walk away because the other person either doesn’t understand and that’s either a willful “doesn’t understand” or it’s an ignorant “doesn’t understand”. End result is the same. It doesn’t matter. They’re not going to understand. And if they aren’t willing to meet you halfway—all the way in some instances with some of your accommodations—it’s time to find a better customer. Catch and release.

Hannah: Absolutely.. Catch and release. Chuck them back in the sea.

Stuart: Exactly.

Hannah: But that is exactly what I was going to say. Having that confidence to know when a collaboration is not working coz if it’s not working for you, it won’t be working for them either.

Stuart: Oh, 100%. Then yeah, so if it isn’t working, you have permission from Hannah and Stu to say, “unfortunately, this doesn’t meet my needs right now”.

Hannah: Chuck them back in the sea. Just—Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Chuck them back in the sea.

Stuart: Oh, brilliant. Right, well that’s it. That’s another podcast under our belts. And another classic review of all of the things that you will need to do to think about communicating with neurotypicals and communicating your needs in a small business. Hannah, what is the topic next week?

Hannah: Um, so next week is being self-employed without wearing a mask at home.

Stuart: Oo, interesting.

Hannah: So, yes, how do you tackle the challenge of being in business and being authentic and honest and true to self. But also, you know, taking the load home and sharing it with significant others, partners, children, pets, whoever’s in your house or your household. We’ll be discussing how to navigate that tricky relationship between you and the rest of the world. Basically—it’s a good one.

Stuart: So, thank you very much for listening. Please do like, share, and subscribe. Tell your friends. Doesn’t matter whether they’re neurodiverse or neurotypical. If it helps you to communicate what is going on inside to them and gets them to understand the world in a little more clarity, then that’s a good thing and that’s something we want to do in 2026. So, thank you very much for listening and uh have a good good week. All the very best. Goodbye.

Hannah: Thank you. Bye.

The Anti-Boredom Blueprint: Staying Motivated With a Spicy Brain

Motivation isn’t a habit for us — it’s a flaky situationship. We adore it when it shows up, panic when it disappears, and shouting “just start” at ourselves has never made it come back.

In this episode, we unpack why neurodivergent boredom isn’t “a bit dull” — it’s an emergency shutdown. We talk activation vs willpower, PDA-style resistance, dopamine detours (including the week-long saga of paying an invoice), and why unfinished tasks can literally fuel insomnia.

We explore what actually helps: time pressure (with caution), riding hyperfocus without letting it wreck you, changing your environment, “fresh eyes,” and outsourcing anything that makes your brain slam the steel shutters down. Expect tangents about stationery, notebooks, and why sometimes the first step is… having a wee.

If you’ve ever stared at a task like it’s written in another language — this is your blueprint to work with your brain, not against it.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details. Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

Send any questions or suggestions:  Contact us here

or email hosts@businessoddcast.com

TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to the Show
00:00:27 – Topic of the Week: The Anti-Boredom Blueprint – Staying Motivated When ND
00:02:47 – A look at ND Boredom – not your regular strength boredom
00:06:06 – The wild dopamine pony ride explained…
00:09:28 – Chequers vs chess level of mental processing
00:10:37 – The reason Stuart’s account’s aren’t completed (“Blame the Squirrels”)
00:12:10 – Managing distractions, SQUIRREL!
00:15:54 – The challenge of multi-tasking and task focus
00:17:20 – The opposite of multi-tasking – HYPERFOCUS!
00:18:05 – Why it’s NOT a superpower, read the blog mentioned – link below.
00:19:21 – The toll of multi-tasking, or multi-project management
00:20:50 – Christmas tree traumas and executive dysfunction
00:21:42 – Exploring reward systems, other incentives and hyperfocus
00:26:18 – Why do ND brains seek novelty, chaos and all things new?
00:26:51 – New ND diagnostic trait – Stationery
00:29:35 – Do you have all of the note taking apps?
00:30:42 – ND consistency comes in waves and not linear progression
00:32:10 – Why self-employment is the anti-boredom blueprint for the neurodivergent
00:35:01 – Why requiring novelty is simply “stocking the warehouse”
00:38:28 – Is making your own blueprint the answer?
00:39:06 – What are the “takeaways”?
00:42:20 – First self-employed step in building your new local business
00:43:51 – Why the ND “label” is not for you, it’s for everyone else
00:45:30 – Leaning into who you are is THE answer
00:47:19 – Tips on making progress with your plans
00:53:08 – Like share and subscribe
00:55:43 – LENGTH

RESOURCES

BLOG: High-Functioning, Superpowers, and Other Painfully Annoying Phrases
https://businessoddcast.com/high-functioning-superpowers-and-other-painfully-annoying-phrases/

https://signalbizhub.com – small businesses online – free membership and access to other members in the forums

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

Emergency Overwhelm Kit
https://businessoddcast.com/neurodiverse-emergency-overwhelm-kit

LET’S STAY IN TOUCH
Don’t forget to Like, Share and Subscribe and join the OddSquad, sign up for our weekly newsletter and get our resources all for free!

We share links to resources and remind you of new episodes, which if your Executive Dysfunction is like ours, will be a useful weekly reminder! Lists and alarms for DAYS! We will also be sharing useful info, coping strategies and survival guides, so you can access hints and tips in handy reference form.

Our homepage businessoddcast.com and sign up for our newsletter, we will ask for your email address but we will NEVER sell that to any 3rd party.

Or contact us here or email hosts@businessoddcast.com

Words & Pictures By ND Brains, no LLMs wwere harmed in the production of this content

Stuart Morrison: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Business Oddcast. My name is Stuart Morrison, your presenter. And sitting opposite me is the rather lovely and marvelous—

Hannah Logan: Magnificent even, if I do say so myself—Hannah Logan.Yay.

Stuart: So Hannah Logan, what is—drum roll.

Hannah: (tries to make a drum roll sound) Oh, I can’t do a drum roll. I’m rubbish at noises.

Stuart: Topic of the week.

Hannah: Drum drum. The topic of the week. It is the Anti-Boredom Blueprint. So, it’s all about staying motivated with a “spicy brain.” I like to think of it like this. If you imagine motivation to be a person, then our spicy brains would be in a kind of on-off relationship with it. We’re not fully committed. We adore it when it shows up. We panic when it disappears. There’s a sense of needy going on there. Um, we spiral when it stays away too long, but we absolutely cannot force it to appear by just shouting “just start” at ourselves.

Stuart: So yes, our motivation has a mind of its own. It’s its own person.

Hannah: Um, and this is all about, you know, the usual advice talks you get like build a routine and do the hard things first. And that’s all really great advice, but we have a different brain. So meanwhile, we’re over here like saying, “I’ll do the hard thing first.” But then it suddenly becomes emotionally, you know, something else becomes emotionally thrilling.

Stuart: Oh, yeah.

Hannah: I’ll do the hard thing. No, I won’t. I’ve been doing that for weeks on something. Just a tiny little thing that will take me 20 minutes and my brain’s like, “No, not today, Hannah.” 

Stuart: So, um, there’s a coat hook to be put up in our downstairs loo. I’ve only had it a year. It’s 5 minutes of work, Stuart. It’s not even that your brain just can’t do it.

Hannah: So boredom, you know this yourself, boredom for us with our spicy brains, it’s not just unpleasant for us, it’s actually a neurological shut-off switch, right?

Stuart: Yeah.

Hannah: So the moment something is not stimulating, the boredom kicks in, our brains just kind of go, “Nope.” We just turn it off.

Stuart: Well, you see, I think that comes back to the uh marketing one—we— we have marketing immunity? We’re watching something that we have chosen to watch and then suddenly you step in front of us and start talking about something that we’re not interested in. Our brains literally just go shut down. What? What is this? So, yes, 100%.

Hannah: Neurodiverse boredom isn’t a mild thing. It’s an emergency shutdown, as I’ve already said. So, it’s not a kind of, “Oh, this is a bit boring.” It’s a sort of eject button turning off. Not going to happen. Leaving you staring at a kind of task um like it’s a foreign language to our brains. So, I suppose it would be fair to say that boredom for our brains is a neurological danger signal.

Stuart: Well, yes. I mean one of—one of those things that uh protects you. The fight or flight or freeze or fawn—was one of the other ones I heard attached to it. I love that.

Hannah: Yeah. Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. But yes, you’re right. Your brain sort of slides off the task.

Stuart: Yeah. And it—and it’s not a lack of willpower. You know, people that don’t get it will say things like “just try harder.” It doesn’t work like that. It’s a lack of activation. We need to be motivated, activated to get into that task. It isn’t that we’re just not trying hard enough. And I think that’s what a lot of people don’t understand. It takes real willpower sometimes to force yourself to do the “adulting.” Uh, a real, you know, I’ve only got so much energy and I know I’ve only got so long to do this and my brain is looking at something completely—I’m doing a deep dive on the history of bells. Why? Why is that important right now, brain? Oh, can we get back to—

You know, here’s a confession. So, you kindly did some work for me and you kindly submitted your invoice promptly and clearly—

Hannah: Which was rare for me I might add—so well done Hannah on that!

Stuart: And it took me nearly a week to remember to pay it and it wasn’t that I had any resistance to pay it. I just—I literally had it open in a tab and then I shut the tab down and then I forgot about it and then I remembered I was scrolling back through WhatsApp and I saw your message about it. I was like, “Oh Christ, the invoice.” So I opened a tab again and then hid the whole browser for what, two days? And then it just was like, “the invoice.” I was looking for something completely different. Went to pay the invoice then got distracted by something else. Another two days.

Hannah: But the good thing is my brain just doesn’t remember any of that. I like—don’t even remember that you’re due to pay me anything. So when you paid me you were like “I’ve paid you” and I was like “Oh wow.” It was like—it was a new thing to me.

Stuart: I try to pay on presentation —that’s one of my hard fast rules, especially with small businesses. Larger businesses, well, you can fight it out with the rest of them, but for small businesses, delaying a payment of just 100 quid might seem trivial, but it might be a big difference for that business. And I take other people’s businesses very, very seriously. Um, especially when it’s a small family business.

Hannah: I appreciate that. No problem. Um, I quite agree with the boredom being a hard shutdown.

Stuart: It’s—it’s like the steel shutters go up. You can’t—you can scrabble at it. You can bang on them, but until the brain—and in fact, the more that you bang on it, the more that you try to resolve it, the worse it becomes. It’s almost like the PDA [Pathological Demand Avoidance] kicks in.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Completely.

Stuart: And you’ve got no control over it. It’s not you. This is what is really difficult to try and explain to people is you’re on a wild pony and it’s not taking any of the inputs and you’ve got the reins in your hands and they’re just flapping about and you’re shouting and screaming and digging your heels in and the wild pony is just off and you’re holding on and you’re hoping that when it comes to rest you will at some point be able to get back in the direction that you were moving originally.

Hannah: So true.

Stuart: But my god, what it’s actually doing is looking for dopamine and the dopamine hit that it’s looking for it will keep doing that until it reaches that safety and feels like “Oh I’m back on familiar ground. And do you find that it is more likely to happen when it’s something either new that is being asked of you that you necessarily haven’t gone seeking? So it’s not like a new thing that you are pushing for. It’s something new that somebody else is asking you to do.

I find those requests, my brain’s just like, “Oh, I’ll get to you in a minute. Any minute now, I’ll get to you. But right now, no. The more you ask, the worse it’s going to be. I just—I need to just soak my brain in this dopamine bath for a good, you know, let the sponge soak it all up.” Um, yeah.

Hannah: Yeah, I can relate to that. I can completely relate to that. And I think that buys into the idea that sometimes I can be really spontaneous and just jump onto something. But generally, even if somebody shows me or offers me a really exciting opportunity, if my brain is not lined up for that, then I—most of the time I can’t just jump on it.

Hannah: I mean, we’ve got some exciting things going on at the moment and it’s taken a while for my brain to line up. Now I’m like, “Oh, yeah. I’m in. This is exciting.” But it’s really hard.

Stuart: So, here’s something that I’ve learned, and it’s taken  a lifetime to learn this, but actually implementing it and having it as a reflex action is the thing that I find in business is useful. You just sat through and watched me process a little drama in my business. Uh, and all of the things that I was doing are from years of knowing what outcomes will come if you tell someone they’re stupid. But I’ve got to get a good listener. I’ve got to get it out because otherwise it will just rattle around in my brain and then my brain will be distracted by this “buzzing bee” of an idea that is unfair. Why am I the one that’s suffering because of somebody else’s incompetence?

Hannah: Yeah, you said it, not me.

Stuart: Um, having those processes that your brain can just zip down and not have to think hard about—Other people are playing checkers and I’m playing chess and it’s boring. I find other people’s insights frustratingly dull at times. But I’ve often thought of that as a positive because I’m thinking in a dimension that the people are not generally thinking in—which is what makes me a good problem solver. But there’s—there’s the flip side of that coin of that exact same scenario. Other people are playing checkers and you are playing chess. The difference is you can never stop playing chess. And you’re playing chess at 3:00 a.m. in the morning with yourself. “Shut up, brain. Shut up.”

And sometimes the neurological imperatives that your brain is working under, the structures, they’re in charge. You can try and corral them to some degree, but if you hit a boredom patch that your brain just is refusing to engage with, okay, so here we go. I’m getting very close to the mic for this one. I’ve got some outstanding accounts to do and those accounts,just minor really in the whole grand scheme of things. Every single time I get up from my desk and leave for the day, I’m like, “Oh, the damn accounts.” And then I sit there all night going, “I didn’t do the accounts, didn’t do the accounts, didn’t do the accounts,” get into work and—oh, this is more interesting than doing the accounts. I’ll do that. I’ll get to the accounts. End of the day—Oh, the damn accounts.

Hannah: It’s like Groundhog Day but being played out in slow motion. Do— they haunt you or are you able to put that to bed? Like when you’ve done the whole kind of, “Oh god, I didn’t do them.” Are you then okay until the next day? I would be lying awake in bed like, “Oh, oh, maybe I should do them now.” You know, like even if there wasn’t a sense of urgency—like there wasn’t a set date to do them. Well, obviously there is, but I would still,like you said, have it rattling around in my brain.

Stuart: Oh, yeah. 90% of my insomnia is my undone to-do list.

Hannah: It would panic me.

Stuart: And thinking through the task ahead of doing the task to make sure that I’m going to do the task as efficiently as I possibly can, which I won’t do because I’ll get distracted halfway through and my brain will go off on a tangent. I mean, you’ve listened to this podcast. If you’ve ever listened to this podcast before, you all know, you’ll know how tangential some of our—

Hannah: Partial to a “squirrel” or two, aren’t we?

Stuart: So, if that is the case, if you know that, then how do you manage that? Especially as we spoke last week about the energy fluctuations. So, you’ve got fluctuating energy, fluctuating interest, a beam of attention that is not under your own control for vast majorities of your working day. How do you work with that? How do you, Hannah Logan, how do you work with that? What’s the answer, Hannah? Yes. Tell us. Come on. We’re all listening. We’re all leaning in.

Hannah: Do you know what the—Well, I feel like I need to put a caveat of don’t try this at home. Quite often if I get to the kind of point where I’m just not seeing an end to this Groundhog cycle that you described, then I add a bit of time pressure to myself. I do find that, even if it’s a self-imposed deadline, if I ramp up the stress a little bit, then it forces  me to move forward again. Um, probably not the most reliable way to do it. But it’s almost like a kind of bump start back into it. Does that make sense?

Stuart: Yeah. So, you’ve got this guy who’s got a big whip standing behind you. I imagine he’s a guy. Could be a lady.

Hannah: It’s a lady. She’s wearing a lot of leather.

Stuart: Oh god. That would be very distracting. Nothing’s happening now. There’s a small pause for an ad break, ladies and gentlemen. Squirrel. It’s not a squirrel apart from a sexy squirrel. Um, so having Sgt Major Hannah Logan turn up and go, “Come on, this is the deadline. If it is not done then…do you impose some kind of uh fine or other penalty—self-flagellation? No, I’m—I’m genuinely interested.

Hannah: So here—here’s a good example. So I run a couple of newsletters for a client. They don’t go live until the 8th of January, but I’m very aware—I’ve learned over the years. I’m very aware that the first week back in January is going to be a shit show. Let’s be honest. It’s going to be me crying my way back into being an adult. So, I know that actually I spoke to the client, we—she signed off the blog that’s linked to it. She signed off the content. Um, and it’s there ready. I can’t schedule it yet cuz I’ve got to add some links that aren’t live yet, but it is literally there. So, even if I’m crawling my way into the week commencing the 5th of Jan, then by the 8th, it’ll be there. You know, I don’t have to do it, so there’s no panic. But, what.. I’ve gone off on a tangent. No, I never do that!. My point being, I gave the client a deadline. “I’m going to get this to you by this date.” I made that deadline up, but it forced me because then my brain’s like, “Oh, Hannah, you’ve only got four days. Oh, Hannah, you’ve only got three days.” And sometimes—I’ve shared this before, but I wrote my dissertation in 3 weeks for my degree because I could not—I was in such a block that I was freaking out. And in the end, I set myself two weeks and being quite bossy with myself worked. Because then I just kind of,you know. I was  running on adrenaline and fear probably but it did work. And, you know, this is not a solution for every piece of work that you can’t get into because you would burn yourself out if you live like that but sometimes it does help a bit.

Stuart: I find it really tough to break a task down and deliver it over a longer period of time. I’d rather commit all of my time and brain power to one particular problem.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Rather than—so take for instance uh a website development. I want to work on one project at a time. It is a big project, and I don’t want to be distracted with a thousand cuts from 12,000 other potential, you know, projects. I’d rather focus on one, deliver it in full. Move to the next one. So, you know, so if I was building a street of houses, they’d go up one house at a time, which is hideously—hideously bad. That’s not the way to do it. You just book the trades in all at separate times, you idiot. But that’s why I don’t build houses for—

Hannah: Thank goodness. Could be a long process. And maybe that comes back to the dopamine, you know, with your—with your analogy of house building. Maybe you build one—tick, you know, dopamine rush, you build one—tick, you know, it’s not this kind of much bigger drawn out process. And I hear what you’re saying about individual projects or individual bits of client work. You just want to immerse yourself. It’s almost like—I mean going on to the next point really, it’s almost like sort of a hyperfocus or you know those cycles of focus where you’re like “I just want to fully get in the pool of what—whatever I’m doing and get under the water and fully immerse myself in it. But then the risk with hyperfocus is it convinces us that we’re unstoppable. I feel like I wear—I wear Lycra every time I get into the hyperfocus zone. It convinces us that we’re unstoppable, but actually when it ends abruptly, it just leaves us wandering around blinking like, “Oh, what happened? Where am I?”

Stuart: Oh, yeah. And then crying—crying over anything. Like literally going from like a superhero. Sorry, I hate the phrase superhero for this stuff. There’s a blog about this where I just rant for like 2,000 words. “It’s a superpower. It’s magic. Don’t worry. I know that lights make you cry, but it’s magical—you’re so—you’re so magical. Um—”

Oh god, I’ve got on a rant. But you know, at the same time, I am well aware that there’s a part of my brain that can get so immersed and the stuff that I’m churning out is really, you know, the best stuff I’ve got. But the crash after that is brutal. But I wonder if hyperfocus is linked a bit to what you were saying like you’re doing a big project on a website. Is there an element there of hyperfocus where actually you’re just going like “I don’t want any squirrels involved. I just want to get into it—”

Stuart: And on top of that, we spoke about this um in a conversation we were having about overthinking.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: I contested that it’s not overthinking that it’s just other people underthinking.

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: And it allows you when you are hyperfocused—but they say that the neurodiverse are better at spotting details or can be better at spotting details. I’m looking at a resolution of information and of detail that 90% of people are never gonna even—it’s just not going to cross their mind to even think about it. But I will feel happier knowing that I’ve thought about it. And if I have to break everything down into small individual chunks, I feel like I’m missing out if I have to keep dipping back into it cuz I have to keep reminding myself of the base thinking. So it takes twice as long. Have I explained that?

Hannah: Yeah. 

Stuart: It’s not an individual amount. That’s not like Lego bricks that you bolt together. It’s like imagining every Lego brick that you have to do. There’s 10 other Lego bricks. So, to then stop and then come back to it, you’ve got to add on another 10 Lego bricks just to put one more “progress brick” in place. And that just becomes a draining cycle of picking it up going “where was I? What was I doing?” And that’s going to lead to some boredom and complete exhaustion, right?

I mean, yes, it’s that task switching. Definitely the task switching leads to some dysregulation especially when you’re asked to do it with no context—”do this now.” What—what—how does this fit in—like I said last week—how does this fit in with the overall plan? And I find that really difficult. You know “do this now, do this now, do this now.” I just get really rage—I get completely ragy. um—

Hannah: I bought a cheap Christmas tree on eBay—it was a good Christmas tree but it you know reusable one—

Stuart: Tut tut

Hannah: No, no, there’s no child labor involved in literally a secondhand Christmas tree. I made a big deal about, you know, the guy posting it on time, as I wanted to get it up with the lights on. It is still asleep on my living room floor in its box. I am completely disconnected from it. I can’t do it. And every day I say for the benefit of my family, if you’re listening, sorry. Every day I say, “Oh, I must get the tree up today.” I have no intention of doing it. I don’t—I can’t do it. I am stuck in a cycle. I can’t do it. And then there’s the shame of like I know that my family will be much happier when it’s up.

But no one else can be arsed to do it either. Right. So that’s a problem in itself. 

Stuart: So are there any sort of systems of maybe like reward systems or or or ways to motivate you a bit? Anything you use?

Hannah: Um so I try as much as I can to kind of use those hyperfocus windows. You never know when they’re coming. But I try and use them when I feel one like that—I feel it fly past my brain. Then whatever I’m doing, and I told you this the other day, didn’t I? I think I was lying in bed and I couldn’t get to sleep and it was about 1:30 in the morning and suddenly,  an entire blog dropped into my brain and I was like “ah okay lads this is what’s happening is it.” I went downstairs with my laptop and put out a couple of good blogs for a different client. Um—

Stuart: Nice.

Hannah: But, I know it’s not ideal, don’t get me wrong. No one wants to be working at half in the morning. But I decided to go with it and I realised that the following morning I could have a lie in. And, you know, manage that energy otherwise you’re just burnt out within minutes. Really within seconds. But I kind of used that hyperfocus window intentionally and it did make a massive difference. So, you know when you’re in there and you’re whizzing through the space 1,000 miles around this hyperfocused situation. I try and clam…. I don’t try and clam. There’s no clams involved. I try and cram as much as I can. Not to burn out, but I just ride that wave and think, “okay, while I’m on it, I’m going to do all sorts of stuff that I can do.”

Stuart: Isn’t it funny how we’ve got an entire language around the creativity brain, which is muse, inspiration? When it comes, you harness it. No, when it’s what you’re talking about is hyperfocus.

Hannah: Yeah. Yes.

Stuart: And anybody who said it’s the muse. No, it’s—it’s hyperfocus.

Hannah: Yeah. I mean, you know, we’ve both said this, and my daughter was saying this the other day, for anybody that experiences it, it is incredible when it drops in. When I’m aware that I’m in a hyperfocus, it does feel, although I joke about how I hate the word super power and all that shizzle, it does feel magical. It can also be quite self-destructive and it can be difficult if you don’t manage it. But actually when you’re in it, you do feel like you could achieve so much. You know.

Stuart: I feel like I’m plugged into the mains and everything is amped up. But—but then maybe that’s because the rest of the time we’re not. It’s such a difference to us cuz we’re suddenly really focused and you know that’s not our default. The other thing that I always feel is like my internal brain—whatever it is I’m focused on. I step into it. I be—it becomes a part of me. It’s like I put my head into the screen if it’s a computer thing. If I’m doing something physical and in the real world it’s like I’m watching it on a screen and—and it’s so weird. It’s the reverse in the real world for what it is when I’m in a computer but it is different—definitely a different brain state to the point where Gemma can literally walk up and stand next to me and say, “What are you doing?” And I’ll not hear her even though she said that and I’ll turn and go, “Oh—”

Hannah: Yes. Yes.

Stuart: “What are you doing creeping up?” She goes, “No, I have been saying Stewart, Stewart, Stewart all the way up to you and you didn’t hear me.” It’s like, “No, I’m functionally deaf when I’m thinking.”

Hannah: You know, my whole life people have said, “Why are you so jumpy?” You know, I’m—I’ll be in the kitchen making some soup or I don’t know what I’m doing. And suddenly, exactly what you said, my husband will walk in and he’s not quiet cuz he’s a 6’1″ guy walking into a room. But suddenly I’m like, “Whoa, why did you do that?” You know, I nearly died, burnt myself with the soup. When I was a little kid, I had loads of tests on my brain and stuff like little suckers on, you know, because they’d say “It’s really scary.She starts staring at a wall and well, okay, so the signs were there, right? 

But if you’re staring at the wall, you’ve just shut down. You’re inside your head. My eyes are there, but I’m just—Yeah, I’m in this um bodysuit, but not. 

Stuart: The meat suit. Yeah, piloting the meat suit, but you’ve just put your hands off the controls, put it on autopilot, and it’s just gone and stared at a wall. 

Hannah: Oh my goodness. Why do you think that neurodiverse brains seek chaos and newness? Because that’s the dopamine hit, I’m guessing. I guess it’s a drug for us. 

Stuart: It’s kind of…I guess it’s not so much that it’s a drug. I think we are just aware that it’s what drives the momentum forwards for us. Maybe—

Oh, I’ve got a—a new trait. I’m not going to diagnose anyone with it, but it’s definitely on the list. And here it is: Stationery.

Hannah: I love stationery.

Stuart: Anybody who goes and sniffs the stationery cupboard—Has that been you? I used to get locked into the stationery cupboard by the teacher in the English class because I wouldn’t sit still or stop talking.

Hannah: Oh, that—that’s good teaching.

Stuart: Yeah. No, literally locked in. You know, fire safety, anyone? And uh it was a very long thin. It was the width of the classroom, but it had windows high up. It was like behind the blackboard. A kind of prison really. But he thought he was punishing me by putting me in, locking me in. I would just be sniffing all the new, back when schools were properly funded and they had rooms with pencils and all sorts and chalk and erasers, and I’d just go and sniff the books, the textbooks, flick the textbooks like the smell of the ink.

Hannah: Oh my goodness, you’ve just given me a memory. You know, the beginning of a new term where they hand out the fresh—like the beginning of the new year—they hand out the fresh books, you know, like a blue one for English and a green—Oh. Oh, that’s given me a little kind of, I mean school was brutal, right? But I love the new books. But yeah, that’s one of the traits, isn’t it? Somebody who’s got a lot of new notebooks. 

Stuart: How many notebooks do you have on your shelf that are unwritten in? I’ve got literally dozens.

Hannah: Yeah, I have. And diaries. I’ve got about 20 diaries all that have like two pages written in. New Year’s resolution to keep a diary. Week one, I’m keeping my diary. Week two, I forgot to enter yesterday. Week three—where’s my diary.

I mean, I admire Anne Frank and she was a big inspiration to me. But I loved—I loved the idea. I loved the idea. I do love the idea of documenting stuff. And I love this kind of romantic idea that somebody generations to come will be like, “Oh, I found like great great granny Hannah’s.” Well, sorry guys. You’re going to be so disappointed. It’s literally—it’ll be a page of me bitching about stuff, then I’ll remember that I’m trying to write something beautiful that my future generations might find. I’m actually just going to go home and burn them all cuz there’s nothing there and actually it’s just going to disappoint. I want them to remember me as being some famous podcaster. I don’t want them to remember me as somebody that couldn’t finish things. I really want to pretend to be good at that stuff and want to enjoy it. I’m a writer, right? I love doing that for my work and for my hobbies, but I can’t keep a journal. I just can’t do it.

Stuart: The—uh—modern version of the stationery cupboard sniffer is the person with all of the note apps. If you’ve got Obsidian, if you’ve got Evernote, if you’ve got Keep, if you’ve got reminders, if you’ve got all of those apps that you can just index and keep all of the—if you’ve got all of those, like why would we need more than one? But I do have more than one.

Hannah: I do. We all do. I checked my, you know, just your normal notes in your phone. I’ve got an iPhone. The notes section of that. I looked the other day cuz occasionally I go in and delete the ones that, you know, you go in and you see something that just says “853.” What? What is that? Is that—That feels really important to me.

Stuart: I tell you what, one of our episodes, here’s an idea. In one of our episodes we will just read out a section of our notes. Just  a little insight. We’ll do it. We’ll—we’ll read out a little view into the crazy. Little slice of inside the mind. This being an anti-boredom blueprint. Um, and we’re accepting that you know the brain tends to get a little distracted. Um, what can we do? I mean when we’ve spoken about the myth of consistency. How do you remain consistent when your brain isn’t and your energy isn’t? Any thoughts around the consistency? Because you know if you’re going to build a business, to some degree you have to show up. So how do you square that circle?

Hannah: It’s a hard one isn’t it? Cuz we are sold consistency is like the Holy Grail of—

Stuart: Oh that’s everything. “Keep coming back Stuart, you’ll succeed. Stand up one more time then you get knocked down.” I mean, it’s good. I get it. I understand it. It’s a good piece of advice. But when you’re lying on the canvas, wrung out, that’s when we don’t want to hear that message.

And our motivation doesn’t work. It’s not linear. It doesn’t work in straight lines. So, it comes in waves, and when a good wave hits, we are on fire. But it’s not as predictable as a neurotypical brain. So, knowing that it fluctuates and it needs some stimulation, and there is inconsistency there. We need to kind of work with that, and knowing yourself really well is 

My contention is not only is self-employment a perfect approach to income and work for the neurodiverse. I actually think that other people can harness our brains. And I don’t mean that in a—”it’s a superpower. You’re going to do maths and—” or something, you know, or for our colonial friends, math.

Hannah: That really annoys me

Stuart: Yeah, I know. But go to Legos, take the S off of that and put it on the math and then we’ll—then we can have a conversation. But the point I’m making is if you can prove your commercial worth and you can deliver value, you should be paid on the value, not the amount of hours you actually turn up.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And I think that’s where businesses could harness the neurodiverse because there are a lot of people out there with some very very cool skills that, were you to just say “here’s a project, go away, work on that—and check in with me in a couple of weeks and we’ll see where you’ve got to.” I think that’s why self-employment and running a small business works because that’s effectively what you’re doing and you’re doing it fractionally for a few businesses that recognise and appreciate your skill set. So, I think that self-employment itself is the blueprint.

Every single person that hears this isn’t going to suddenly magically turn into a self-employed person and run a successful business. But it does help to keep the boredom at bay. I’ve got to say when I list the things that I’ve done in—over time and people say, “How have you done all that?” And it’s like, “Well, cuz I don’t like to be bored.”

Hannah: Oh my gosh, that—Yeah, that is so true. I mean, you know, I said earlier, I think, or I certainly have said to you recently, I’m building a website at the moment for somebody. I don’t do that as a service anymore, but I have the skills and I have done it in the past. And my brain just went, “Oh, I want to do this.”

So, they said, “Oh, do you know who we can get to do it?” And I said, “Yeah, I’ll do it.” “Oh, I didn’t know you did it.” “Well, I can do it.” So, yeah, let’s just do this for you. and you alone, special person. The funny thing is I’ve built websites in the past where I was kind of crying through the final days, you know, writing meta tags and crying. Yeah, so I know that it’s not something I want to do a lot of but I just got involved in this one and thought “yeah I can do this. But it’s about not being bored. I knew I needed that change. I’ve done lots of writing recently and I knew that I needed to do a bit of web building.

Stuart: I think of it as “stocking the warehouse.”

Hannah: Yes.

Stuart: Sometimes you have to go away and do something completely different because you have flushed all of your ability to do whatever it is. Even if it’s one of your special interests, you have flushed all of the stock of it out and you need it to recharge and it recharges at a certain..

Hannah: Yeah, exactly.

Stuart: It recharges at a certain rate. So, you need to go and stock the warehouse which means you need to go and do something like, back when I was doing product design. What people don’t realise about the realities of a commercial endeavor. When you say I will do something you’re not just honour bound to do that. You’re contractually and legally obliged to do it and that you can’t go back to somebody and say, “Oh yeah, my brain failed to chooch. I wasn’t inspired to do the 50 slogans that I said I would deliver in a week. But I think if your brain is failing to perform at the level you need it to, then chances are you need to go away and do something completely different for a while. And I’m not saying that solves the problem of delivering 50 lines in a week, which was an actual very real thing that I had to do before any kind of Chat GPT. So I literally had to come up with them myself and they all had to be funny, you know, and be slogany and kind of put on a mug or woven onto apparel. Um, and if you say, “Oh, my brain—” Well, we’ve got our supplier backed up waiting. We—we’ll just put the—the entire print run on hold whilst your brain realises the commercial reality of that. It’s all very well and good saying, “Oh, do you know—let your brain lead?” But you see, by going away, what I did was I went for a walk. I got in my car and went to the shops. I went into the woods. I did anything. I went and watched a film. And you could be saying, “Well, Stuart, that’s doing anything but the work.” 

Yeah, but my brain needs to. The subconscious of my brain needs to work out what it’s going to do, knowing that the deadline is coming and trusting my process, I need to distract myself for about two or three days with nothing—you know—minor work bits and pieces, but nothing heavily creative.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: Go and watch a film, go to a museum, go and walk in the woods, go shopping, go and do all those things which seem anything but the work. And then it’s almost like a magic switch. Yeah. 2 days, 3 days before the deadline, and your brain just starts piling this stuff out. I’ve learned to trust that process.

Hannah: Yeah, it  works. So, I call that—sometimes I just say this needs “fresh eyes” and fresh eyes means go away, ignore it for a couple of days and then bring it back like you’ve never seen it before. And that for me, and we probably all have slightly different processes, but for me more often than not, it flicks the switch and I’m like, “Okay, back in the room. My brain’s back engaged.”

Stuart: We’ve looked at this blueprint. I’m not sure that we’ve actually created a blueprint. What we’ve said is make your own blueprint.

Hannah: Yeah. Be the boss of your own. Yeah.

Stuart: And that goes with, you know, being self-employed. You make your business what you make of it. You know, it’s not up to us to tell you, but there’s just some rules and you can ignore those rules as a neurodiverse person and it will take its toll eventually. However, if you stick to the rules, um, it works really well.

Hannah: Yeah, it does.

Stuart: So, what would you say to the listeners as a takeaway?

Hannah: Oh, as a takeaway,as a personal takeaway, I would say trust in your own process and really find out how you work cuz we can give you some insight on the way we work and there’ll be some similarities and there’s lots of hints and tips. Um, and there is in the blog that accompanies this podcast. But at the end of the day, you start to understand how you work best and how you can harness your hyperfocus moments and how you can, you know, like we talked about the fresh eyes on projects and things. You will probably have your own version of that. So for me, the best thing that’s ever happened to me from understanding the way that I work best and really harnessing all of that motivation is just to keep learning about myself.

Stuart: That sounds perfectly reasonable, and if you are the expression of your business. So you are the tool through which your business is delivered, then you do yourself a real disservice if you don’t listen to how best that tool works. And I think over the years I’ve listened to far too many other people’s take on what and how I do what I do, and have taken it at—Oh god, it’s the autistic thing, isn’t it? “Here’s the set of instructions. Follow them exactly.” Okay, I am now broken in ways I didn’t know I could break, but thank you for that experience. I’m going to hand you back the manual and go and make my own manual. Um, and I think that you’re right. Any takeaway that we say “you must do this, you must do that”— always be wary of anyone who says “you must do.”

Hannah: Yeah. You are your own best judge of what you must do.

Stuart: Yeah. Because you will be aware of your own capacity. And whilst I do believe if you set your mind to things, you can achieve them, there is a certain amount of reality that crashes in and you can have youthful exuberance and that can carry you a long way. But at the age of 57—You run out of it then. 

Hannah: Oh boy, my stock of youthful exuberance is—the barrel is empty. I remember I look back to like early 20s Hannah and she was like so full of hope and goals, but I’m like “sweet naive Hannah. I love that you thought that was a reality”.  

But actually, you know, we’re talking about boredom, aren’t we? Here. Don’t do the stuff that’s boring. Outsource it. Outsource the boring. Exactly what you said, Stu. And also as the boss of yourself, and the boss of your own business. You know, I’m not going to be naive and say you can do whatever you want and get paid for it. That’s not reality.

Stuart: No. But you can certainly pick more of the things that bring you joy and do less of the rubbish that doesn’t. Or outsource that stuff. You get to be the boss of that. So, if you’re thinking to yourself, “I would like to dabble my toes into self-employment or whatever,” the first thing to do is go and find a network of small business owners. There’ll be someone out there. We—we have a local one called Signal. It’s very good. Um, they have an online presence. We’ll drop a link in the notes. But the point to it is you’re going to go, “Oh yeah, but that’s socializing. I don’t want to do that. It’s the last thing I want to do.” A lot of these—uh—networks have online forums. You can pick it up and put it down at your will. Get involved there. Share your experience and your expertise. Be curious. There’s nothing more powerful than going somewhere and saying, “Could you teach me how to do this?”

Cuz there’s people like me out there. I love explaining stuff. I love unpicking and explaining and sharing and going, “Look, I don’t know everything, but I have done this for 30 years, so I know a thing or two.” And I’ve only done it in the last—uh—year in the full knowledge of my own spiciness.

Um, even though I knew all along, you know, I just didn’t have a word for it. But I’d accommodate—there was so many accommodations I made for myself which just acknowledged my own reality, uh, my lived reality. Um, and that was ahead of— as I’ve said this before, the diagnosis isn’t for you, it’s for everybody else.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: You know who you are. And this whole—I won’t get into the politics of it all, but this whole—there’s too much—too many labels. It’s not me that needed the label, ladies and gentlemen. You know, it’s like putting your name badge on when you go networking. I know who I am. I’m putting that on for everybody else.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And that’s exactly what a diagnosis is. So, if you’re listening to this and going, “Oh, well, that doesn’t really apply cuz I’m not diagnosed. Whatever you’ve heard, if you think it will work, it doesn’t matter about the diagnosis.”

Hannah: No. And self-diagnosis is equally as valid as well.

Stuart: 100%. So, welcome to anybody that is here thinking, questioning, scratching their head and going, “A lot of this makes a lot of sense because it sounds like you’re reading my mind.”

Hannah: We are, by the way. We’ve got superpowers. Don’t tell them about that. I’ve outed us!

Stuart: You’ve outed us. That’s what we’re doing actually. Neurotypicals. We’re reading your minds. We’re sucking out all the good bits out of your brains. That’s why you don’t have any good ideas cuz we’re able to do that. That’s why it sometimes seems like we’re reading your mind. We actually are. 

Hannah: Look into the eyes, not around. 

Stuart: So, um, the takeaway is that there’s a lot into this. Know thyself, read up, do your research, figure it out, accept the truth about yourself. Once you stop going, “I am better than this.” I’ve done that way too many times. Way too many times have—convinced myself that I can outthink the situation or I can outperform my lack of performance.

Hannah: Yeah. And lean into—lean into who you are. I think you know a lot of us have or probably all of us have felt the shame over the years of not being the square peg in the round hole. Lean into who you are. We’re not wrong but actually when you understand yourself better and you lean into that rather than trying to fight it. Cuz I’ve spent most of my working life fighting it. You know, almost like “what would a neurotypical person do in this situation?” What actually if I just lent into who I was and not try to fight it, I’d have been so much better off. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the last few years. And it’s completely life-changing.

Stuart: It is. But we have to acknowledge that that is a privilege that some people don’t have because, you know, dropping the mask could be literally deadly. So, you know, make sure you’re safe, people, before you lean into your  own traits because other people might not be so happy about it. 

Hannah: Especially  if you’ve been a people pleaser, that can be hard. When people were like, “What’s wrong with Hannah? She’s gone to therapy and now she’s got boundaries. We hate the “new boundaries” Hannah. We like the one that was like, ‘Okay’ for everything.” Yeah. Sorry everybody that I did that. 

Stuart: I’ve often had conversations with people where I’ve basically told them that their friends aren’t their friends. Just like, “you do realize that all these people are just hanging around with you because of utility.” And unfortunately, a lot of those people kind of know it. And that’s why they are the person, I mean, I wrote a piece the other day where I said you know you get the job of doing the tasks and you willingly accept it and have got a clipboard and who’ve written it all down and the reason that they let you hang out with them is cuz you’re doing the admin for their fun.

Hannah:You’re their PA. Some tips: do you think we should give people some tips? I mean know we’ve done some brief tips, but maybe some specifics that work for you—for me.

Stuart: So, I think probably one of my favorites is if you get stuck in that kind of “everything’s boring, everything feels dull” kind of trap, then just change your environment, not your standards. You know, change what’s going on around you. 

Hannah: Likewise, if you’re bored in the middle of a task, rather than sit there beating yourself up, “Why can’t I finish this? What’s wrong with me?” actually, just change the task. Like we were talking about my terminology of fresh eyes. If you’re stuck, don’t sit there for an hour hating yourself and wondering what’s wrong with yourself. Come away from it. Do something different. Change up what you’re doing.

Stuart: Yeah. And when you feel ready, come back to the task. And if you’ve learned all the things we’ve told you today, listen well, people. If you’re learning, get a fresh notebook.

Hannah: No, the one thing you do not need is any more notebooks.

Stuart: No, you need a spiral bound one with dots. Oh, yes you do. Um—Sorry. Distracted.

Hannah: He’s like—totally distracted me. Um, yeah, there’s no shame in not being able to finish tasks and stuff. Oh, I’ve just totally lost—

Stuart: No, no, no. I can pick up on that, please. If your brain has wandered off of what it’s doing or is refusing like a magnet being pushed against the same pole, you know that that repelling feeling. Go and do anything—anything else. Go and empty the bins. You know, I sometimes distract myself from doing the real work by doing the menial task in the house cuz suddenly my brain goes, “Oh, I don’t want to do this. Why don’t we go down to the office then and go and do the thing that we came up here to avoid doing?” Cuz at least then that you’re pushing it forward and you know that it’s going to be okay. And like this kind of negotiation of doing a less boring task, that just sounds counterintuitive, but it does work.

You’re walking on one path and you’re getting tired and you’ve had enough of it and you just want to be home and then you just go down a different path for 10 minutes and then the original path feels more interesting and stuff. Again, that’s probably a really crap way of describing it, but you know what I mean. And also building that time, not having any shame around the time that it might take you to do a task and building in that extra time, that buffer time or that buffer recharging time, understanding the way that your brain works better and making sure that you build that into your kind of working timetable.

I also have really bad alexithymia, so I’m not sure what’s going on internally. The other day Gemma literally asked me, “Are you hungry? I’m going to put some chips on.” And I said, “I’m not hungry.” No. And I ran because I was running through the kitchen to the loo because I’d been doing a hyperfocus.

Hannah: Then you woke up.

Stuart: Woke up was like, “Oh my god, I got to wet myself.” I stood up and it was like, “Oh no, this could be really embarrassing.” So I ran to the loo through the kitchen and uh Gemma was like, “Do you want any chips? Are you hungry?” “I’m not hungry.” Went to the loo, came out and went, “Scratch that. I’m starving.” But I couldn’t experience hunger because it was backed up behind the—and so sometimes you need to go and do—go and have the wee.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: To release the—don’t assume that just because you’re bored, you’re actually bored. You know, it’s the “I’m hungry.” Well, go and have a sip of water. You might actually be thirsty. And that for me works going and doing. You know, in the studio there’s all of my tools and all the various things. If I’ve got stuck, I will go and do, you know, put a coat hook up or whatever, you know.

Hannah: A little task like the one in your bathroom that’s been due for the last 12 years.

Stuart: Oh, you caught me out.

Hanah: Sorry.

Stuart: It’s because I lost the screws. I bought some specific screws. I lost the screws. I’ve now found the screws, but I’ve now lost the hook cuz I moved the hook out of my sightline because guess what? This wasn’t getting done. It was just nagging at me. But the other day, I think I found the box of screws. I didn’t check it. I just rattled it and put it back where the new hook is. And now I can’t remember where I put them. That is my life. My whole life is looking for the carousel of thoughts, ideas, and dreams.

Hannah: Oh my goodness. So, there’s the top tip there. Just don’t be too distracted by being distracted.

Stuart: Um, so there we go. If you’ve got any thoughts, ideas, hints, tips, or you’re violently opposed to what we’ve just said, put  some comments. Tell us you’re out there, let us know. Send us fan mail. 

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. But no dodgy emails or like stalkery stuff—again. No, no more.

Stuart: So, yeah. If you got any thoughts, ideas, hints, tips, or uh your own experiences, let us know. We’d love to hear. Any final thoughts, any final takeaways, hints, tips, or insights, Hannah?

Hannah: Oh gosh. Insight, hints, and tips. Um, no.

Stuart: It’s just flat note.

Hannah: I haven’t got any more.

Stuart: None. That’s it. Run me out. I’ve covered it all.

Hannah: Fantastic.

Stuart: Well, if you’ve liked what we’ve been saying or disliked what we’ve been saying, react in some way. Like—

Hannah: Tell us you’re alive.

Stuart: Is there anybody out there? Like, share, and subscribe. Like, share, and subscribe. Of course, there’s people out there. Will they tell us? Um—like, share, and subscribe. I’ve said that enough times. Like, share, and subscribe. And if you haven’t liked, shared, and subscribed, we want to know why.

Hannah: We do. What is wrong with you? And tell all of your friends.

Stuart: Yes. Yes. Do tell friends. Uh so uh go to businessoddcast.com if you want to join the mailing list and find out. I must send the email out. I forget every week. I’m so sorry for the all those people that are crying waiting for—

Hannah: “Where is it?”

Stuart: I’m sure they’re following along. Anyway, join—join us for infrequent updates. And what are we talking about next week, Hannah?

Hannah: Oh, next week I always say it is a good one. They’re all good ones. So that’s a stupid thing. I need to introduce them differently. So next week we’re talking about “talking about your needs and collaborating with neurotypicals”—collaborating and communicating and ensuring that your needs are being met, seen, and acknowledged.

Stuart: Yeah. Just sometimes something—somebody going, “Yeah, we know it’s shit. We’re really sorry about that.” It can really help—just say. We need feedback. We are people that need feedback.

Hannah: Always feedback and clear communication.

Stuart: Here’s an example. Somebody put a photograph up on Facebook of their ceiling and the plaster had fallen away from it. So, there was a big hole and had asked the question, “Can anybody tell me what caused this?“ full stop.

Hannah: Oh—

Stuart: There was lot of people giving a lot of builder information. But that wasn’t the question that was asked. The answer to that question, what would have caused this? was gravity. And that’s what I responded with.

Hannah: I bet you got somebody saying, “Oh, don’t be a smart ass.”

Stuart: The original poster said “the only and correct answer.”

Hannah: Fabulous. They were clearly from our tribe as well.

Stuart: Exactly.

Hannah: Oh, I love it.

Stuart: You ask me a question, you’re going to get the answer. You get the literal answer you weren’t expecting. Anyway, there we go. That’s another oddcast for another week. Thank you very much for listening and we look forward to seeing you very very soon.

Hannah: Bye-bye.

Business Plans That Don’t Suck (Because We’re Allergic to Boring)

Traditional business plans are often built for brains that can sit still, stare at spreadsheets, and stay awake through cashflow forecasts. This episode is for anyone whose brain hears “projected margins” and immediately tries to escape into the garden.

In this one, we break down what actually makes a business plan work for neurodivergent brains: keeping it alive, making it visual, creative, and usable — and building it around fluctuating energy, not imaginary consistency. We talk buffer days, energy budgeting, burnout-proof planning, and why your time (and energy) is never free. Expect spicy tangents, brutal honesty about client fit, and a reminder that “boring” isn’t a personality flaw — it’s a planning design problem.

Come for the anti-boring approach. Stay for the spork rant.

Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details. Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!

Send any questions or suggestions:  Contact us here

or email hosts@businessoddcast.com

TIMELINE

00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to the Show
00:00:20 – Topic of the Week: Business Plans That Don’t Suck (Because We’re Allergic to Boring)
00:01:50 – Why do boring business plans die immediately
00:03:27 – Detail is not complexity, it’s clarity
00:07:00 – What does variable energy do when managing your business plan roll-out?
00:10:48 – Tangent – Spork is the hell-spoon
00:12:25 – Why putting your to-do list in your diary helps manage your energy more efficiently
00:15:07 – Special interests, energy management, and why we’re like a mobile phone
00:17:20 – Why does your business exist, does this align with life goals and energy output?
00:21:30 – How do you plan when you have 47 ideas in front of you?
00:26:18 – How do you build a boredom proof business plan?
00:28:03 – How to beat business planning boredom and the game of business.
00:32:55 – Beware your brain making inefficient business decisions for dopamine rewards
00:34:50 – The problem that most trades suffer from…
00:36:20 – Can you build a business that’s burnout proof?
00:40:50 – The thought that changed business planning for Stuart
00:42:47 – Putting your own oxygen mask on first is non-negotiable
00:43:58 – Business models that remain flexible & acknowledge fluctuating energy
00:47:35 – Final nuggets and ideas to takeaway
00:48:05 – Don’t be afraid to pivoy, guard your energy, plan for bad days
00:51:39 – Are you struggling with your business?
00:53:50 – ND’s are not quitters… and why that’s a problem
00:56:07 – Share your experiences, hints or tips that work for you, round up and goodbye
00:58:56 – LENGTH

RESOURCES

https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!

https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.

https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.

Emergency Overwhelm Kit
https://businessoddcast.com/neurodiverse-emergency-overwhelm-kit

LET’S STAY IN TOUCH
Don’t forget to Like, Share and Subscribe and join the OddSquad, sign up for our weekly newsletter and get our resources all for free!

We share links to resources and remind you of new episodes, which if your Executive Dysfunction is like ours, will be a useful weekly reminder! Lists and alarms for DAYS! We will also be sharing useful info, coping strategies and survival guides, so you can access hints and tips in handy reference form.

Our homepage businessoddcast.com and sign up for our newsletter, we will ask for your email address but we will NEVER sell that to any 3rd party.

Or contact us here or email hosts@businessoddcast.com

Words & Pictures By ND Brains, no LLMs wwere harmed in the production of this content

Stuart: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Business podcast. I’m your host Stuart Morrison and my fantastic co-host is Hannah Logan.

Hannah: Welcome.

Stuart: Welcome indeed. And what is it’s topic of the week?

Hannah: The topic of the week. Well, it’s a good one, Stuart, but they’re all good, right? But this week we’re doing business plans that don’t suck because quite frankly, we’re allergic to boring, aren’t we?

Stuart: Yes. Yes. Boring. Well, you know, just go and look at the video and see what I’m wearing. 

Hannah: So traditional business plans are famously created by people who can sit still for more than two minutes. We’re going to be looking at how our neuro divergent brains can be kept interested in a business plan, and creating something that doesn’t suck. 

Stuart: Because quite frankly, when people start talking about projected margins and forecasts, my brain starts to wander off and wants to go and potter in the garden.

Hannah: Slip into a little coma. Yeah. 

Stuart: There’s nothing nothing like somebody putting a cash flow projection on a slide to make—

Hannah: Yes. Exactly. So, we’re going to be looking today at how we can keep it interesting. Especially given what we were discussing about last week or the week before regarding business plans and business planning. So, we’re going to deep dive into that a bit more. Um and how do you keep your brain from switching off when it’s got to do the adult and important stuff. So, let’s start with a spoiler. The spoiler is that a plan is only useful if it stays alive. 

Stuart: So, it is a living document. Dead plans belong in museums. So, Hannah, right? So, why do boring business plans die immediately?

Hannah: Well, for my brain and many of our listeners, brains. If a business plan doesn’t stimulate our brain, then it becomes invisible because the boredom shuts down the whole system before you’ve even begun. So, you need that initial stimulation and interest. Otherwise, it’s just a big nope. And when that happens, when that big nope happens, then our brains disengage from the uninteresting structure because boring is the same as kind of abandoned really. So business plans for us, or certainly for me, need colour. They need creativity and they need, if this doesn’t sound weird, a texture to survive. I need to be able to imagine that business plan as a kind of thing rather than a spreadsheet that’s going to immediately turn my brain off.

Stuart: I think for me, anything which requires a degree to interpret, I need to be able to look at it and understand it. One one of the things I’ve realized over the years, I’m not good comp with compartmentalised tasks. What do I mean by that? I’m not good when somebody hands me this tiny little thing. Because there are so many questions. There’s so many questions around. Can you do this? Well, yes, I can, but I need to know these and these answers. And what people take that for is complexity. When it’s clarity.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: So, we were discussing this offline. We’re talking about overthinking. I think there’s a difference between overthinking and over explaining. I actually think quite a lot of business people underthink. They don’t have the level of thinking or clarity or detail that is required. Which is why to a certain extent most leaders tend to be visionary. They’re kind of like we need to go in that direction and then they need a person or a team to translate that into we go from A to B using this plan. And I’ve read many business books over the years and it always seems to think that you are going to be the person with all of the skills. What it doesn’t seem to do is say you’re going to do these bits, these are going to be your bits that you do really really well. But all of these bits over here that you’re really going to need to get somebody else in. Like FD, you know, I’m not FD material. I can look at a balance sheet. I can, you know, go through a process, but ultimately I’ve always had somebody that I can refer to and say, “How do we delay this and all of those kinds of things. So, I think for me, boring translates as not one of my special interests.

Hannah: Yeah, I get that. I don’t mind learning new things and I don’t mind having an overview of those things. 

Stuart: Like I say, the compartmentalisation doesn’t work for me unless I know how that fits in the overall grand scheme of things because then that answers for me lots of questions that are imponderables until you’re starting to work through them. And at that point, you can go, oh, hang on a minute. Where do I fit in? What is the overall goal? What is the purpose of this? And if you then need to be creative. It gives you a guiding light. So, I like to think of the business plan as my guiding light.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. I get that. That kind of macro view. I need to see all of it to then be able to imagine it and get involved in it.

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. One of the ways I stay uh like I feel like I’m working on a living document is to just have a very simple business plan. Um like we discussed last week. And uh I think for me that’s that gives me the clarity that I know that I’m moving in generally the right direction without tying me down. But you see it’s always different when it’s just like a one-man business. It’s always a bit you have to sort of react to the game that’s in front of you.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: But that doesn’t mean to say you can’t have an overall game plan that you know is for now. But this is what I’m aiming for.

Hannah: Yeah. I think for me it’s that balance, isn’t it, of knowing? You’re not just going in blindly just like “whatever happens”. Because you need, or certainly I do, dopamine and stuff. I need to know, well, that’s the goal, you know, that’s the direction I’m heading in. But actually, like we said in our previous podcast, it’s having that adaptability. You know, a lot of us need to be able not to feel like we’re setting it concrete because then it gets boring. Or it gets intimidating.

Stuart: I think one of the other major points is when you’ve got a plan and it specifically states what you’re going to achieve and by when. What that doesn’t take into account, of course, is the fluctuating energy levels.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: You know, this week I’ve been rather unwell with a cold and it’s just flattened me. It’s like you’ve opened a bottle of pop and it’s got no fizz, you know? It might taste right, but it’s not the right experience. You know what I mean? I can get through the day, but I’ve got no fizz. And that’s kind of what it is. It’s like I’m there, but not in my full glory. You’re just kind of  in the background holding on with fingertips.

Stuart: But I think it’s hard to have a business plan which states you will do these things by these dates when, I’ve had sometimes months where I’ve been flattened with low energy, low mood, various things. Life, you know, just insert life events, and it would slap most people down. But when your dopamine levels are just completely depleted, it’s almost impossible to engage with the work, let alone work through the work. So having a plan that you can pick up and put down and isn’t to a certain extent time bound. But Stuart, customer deadlines notwithstanding. That’s why you need to reserve your energy because if you’ve got to hit some deadlines and also work on your business, well, it can be impossible. How do you manage the fluctuating energy?

Hannah: So, what you’ve just described, I think of it as kind of survival mode or, you know, when your car gets a light and it’s like it goes into limping mode. Sometimes I’m in limping mode and then like you said, you need to still have a capacity, a little box of energy somewhere because as a business person, we do need to be reliable. And if somebody suddenly comes in at the final moment and says, “Oh my goodness, my website’s down”. Or whatever it is we’re doing for them, we need to be able to dig deep and get that little reserve. So for me, I do need to really manage my energy as much as I can. And like you said, you’ve a tough week on the energy and being ill and stuff. When that happens to me, if I’m not careful, I do get into a slight panic state because I think, you know, my brain’s listing like a little roller thing like tick tick tick. These are the things you’re behind on now, Hannah, coz you’re ill or, you know—

Stuart: Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah: So, the way that I manage that, and you’ve helped me actually, is not to get caught up in that and start panicking. Seeing all the deadlines I’m missing, but actually just chilling out about it really and realising I’ve managed to allow quite a lot of time to hit my deadlines. So, if I have a week where I’m taken out of the equation and I’m in limping mode, then it’s okay because I don’t work to very tight deadlines because I’ve learnt the way that I work best.Does that make sense? You’ve taught me buffer days. That lead time is not just how long will it take me to write the copy for this website. That lead time is how long will it take me assuming I’m going to have a day where I’m just in full anxiety mode or I’m going to have a day where the spoons have just have all gone on a picnic without me and I’m like, “Oh, I look in the spoon drawer”. So, but it’s okay coz I’ve allowed enough time. 

Stuart: It’s just that one plastic spoon in there that’s slightly broken. It’s in the little plastic sleeve that they’ve got. It’s one of those fold in half ones. You got to get through the day. 

Hannah: Oh, just a crappy spoon that I can’t use or a spork. Sporks are the most annoying. When I first got introduced, sorry tangent….people listening. When I first got introduced to a spork, I knew that I was expected to say, “Oh, wow, what genius created this little thing”? But I just thought, “What the utter? What is this horror? It’s not a good spoon, but it’s a shit fork as well”. So, what is it? It’s just literally doing both jobs badly. It’s so annoying. It’s so annoying.

Stuart: It’s a hell spoon.

Hannah: Yeah. It’s like “does it work for soup?”  No, it doesn’t. Is it long enough as a fork? Nope. Can’t stab things with it. Can’t shovel things with it. It’s just nothing. It’s a hybrid. And if you were that spork, you’d be like in the corner, wouldn’t you? Like, “why does nobody want me?”. “Why isn’t anybody talking to me?”. Because you’re rubbish at both your jobs that you’ve been given to do.

Stuart: News flash, neurodiverse sports with a human equivalent. 

Hannah: I can’t believe I’ve said that. So, yeah.

Stuart: No, so dragging the conversation back to the topic in hand. Um, other podcasts about sports are available. Um, I think the key for me, and I worked this out through a lot of trial and error, mostly error. I say this to people and I see this look in their eyes of like, well, that sounds really simple. It’s like put all the work you need to do in your diary. You know, get your to-do list and put it in the diary. Allocate actual time. And the reason that I say that, it’s not just a time management issue. It allows me to look at my week ahead and go, “Oh, I’ve got to do that. And I’ve got to do that. And those three things, that means in the evenings I’ve got to do nothing”. 

Hannah: Or if I am going to do something, then that’ll be a 10:00 a.m. start.

Stuart: Yeah. Because I’ve got the meeting in the afternoon. I can’t do a full day of meeting, and networking event. You know, and this is one of the reasons why my Fridays are sacrosanct. Nothing gets booked on a Friday. I do have some networking obligations that um come up that I need to go and host and various things. But that’s only half a day. So unless there is something flashing red urgently that I need to do. I’ve got Friday afternoon at the last possible gasp of the week. Um but I’ve given myself a little bit of extra time. Even if I get to it and I’ve got nothing to do, I’ve got something to do because I’m planning for the week ahead, so I get ahead. And going into a Monday and you start ahead of yourself, you know that if any road bumps come along, you’re going to weather them. Too many Fridays, you get to the end of the week and you’re thinking, “Oh, thank God it’s the weekend”. But you just spend it recovering. And that’s not rest, that’s recovering.

Hannah: Yeah.

Stuart: And so my recovery is Friday afternoon, basically. Friday afternoon and Saturday morning, I set myself off. I’ve got to do a little run, come home. Saturday morning, do my own thing. The family gets on with their stuff. They’ve all got stuff they do and then I can ease into the afternoon and go and do one of my hobbies, special interests. And even if that might be working in the garden or whatever, because it’s one of my things I enjoy doing, it’s like it’s charging me up.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: It’s that I have a complete break from the business. Brain, body, mind, the whole thing. Not thought about. And for me, that’s the key to it. It’s the energy management, not the business plan.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. 100% that. My daughter and I were talking the other day and saying that. She’s in quite a bit of a burnout at the moment and we were saying it’s weird coz when she’s doing something she absolutely loves, something creative, one of her, like you said, one of her special interests. It does not affect the battery at all. Like she can write, she’s writing a book and she can write 3 hours straight. It does not burn her battery at all. It does not touch the spoons. And yet she can go and have a shower and that’s like ‘empty spoon drawer’. Because she said when she’s  in it, she doesn’t get it. We were trying to work out why that is? But I guess because when you love it it’s just flowing naturally. It’s like you’re downloading stuff rather than you’ve got to actively think “oh this stage”. So it’s like your brain is like “yeah I can do this with my eyes shut”.  It’s cool. Doesn’t require spoons.

Stuart: Yes. The sensory overload element to it can really deplete you fast. It’s like having your screen on full brightness, with playing music and streaming something to the telly at the same time. Just think about your phone if it was doing that. The battery would last, you know, minutes. We’ve all had days where we’ve got to the middle of the afternoon and we’ve gone, “Oh my god, I’ve only got 5%. I need to charge”. And to a certain extent, that’s the neurodiverse experience.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart: You can have all of the plans. You can have an intricately worked day. This will be delivered. This will be done. And then you get there on a Monday and your brain just goes, “Nah”.

Hannah: Yeah. It’s on a deck chair somewhere. You’re like, “Get back in my head. I need to do the stuff”.

Stuart: But it’s not only just on a deck chair somewhere. It’s got a bag of chips and it’s being attacked by seagulls and you’re fending off the seagulls trying to eat the chips thinking, “What am I doing? Why am I even on a deck chair?” But the point, I think, is that if you plan your energy and you have a slightly more flexible approach to the delivery for the things that are unimportant, I’ve found that over the years that works for me better.

Hannah: Mmm.

Stuart: And this comes back to whenever I’m doing business consulting with somebody, I ask them a very simple first question and this is the one that most people get tripped up by: “Why does your business exist?”. And most people answer that in terms of “well we serve our customers and blah blah blah”. No, that’s what your business does. That’s a product of your business, the service, the goods, the whole of it. But why are you doing this business? If you understand why your business exists, you’ll have a much happier time of it. Now, if your business exists to change the world for whatever reason, you know, insert piece of technology, piece of whatever here, and I need to build that and create it. That is a completely different business to one that is this business will give me an income for as long as I’m doing it. And when I stop, I really won’t have anything to sell because it will be basically me. And again, it’s fantastic that you have that clarity. That’s the clarity I have. You know, I am under no illusions that the moment I stop work 99% of the projects I’m involved with go away and that’s great because then I’ll have earned enough to have created an independent income elsewhere which recurs. A pension basically. And that was my game plan that was my goal. I I realised early on that I wasn’t going to have one of those careers which left me with a pension at the end of it and you know a handshake and a gold parachute and all the rest of it.

Hannah: Dodgy watch.

Stuart: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mantel piece clock. So, I decided early it was a fairly frugal life. I mean, frugal. I live in the West and have good health and a family that loves me. You know, I won the jackpot. But the point is, we all have to think about the future. And I decided early on that and have tried to buck this as well. I decided early on to have a frugal life, earn as much as I could and put as much of it away into savings while still enjoying my life. I mean, I have splurged at times. You got to live. I don’t want to die the richest man in the cemetery. Um, but I think the point is that when I have purposely tried to grow a business with employees and all the demands that that creates, I genuinely nearly broke myself in a way which I wouldn’t have recovered from. So I had to accept that that’s not the style of business that works best for me and I was doing it for reasons which were not internal. They were to show the rest of the people that I can do it for myself.

Hannah: Capitalism.