Episode 34: The ‘No’ toolkit- Boundaries for ND brains
For something that’s only two letters long, “no” can create a truly astonishing amount of panic. One boundary becomes a guilt spiral, three imagined arguments, and a sudden urge to explain your entire life story to justify why you can’t help someone move house on a Tuesday afternoon.
In this episode, we unpack why saying no can feel so disproportionately difficult for neurodivergent people. From people-pleasing and rejection sensitivity to masking, perfectionism, and the fear of disappointing others, we explore why so many of us end up saying yes long after we’ve run out of time, energy, and capacity.
We talk about overcommitting, resentment, energy management, and the hidden cost of constantly putting everyone else’s needs ahead of our own. We also share practical strategies for creating boundaries that actually stick, including scripts, pause techniques, recognising when resentment is trying to tell you something important, and learning how to say no without writing a 14-page witness statement in your defence.
Because boundaries aren’t about being difficult. They’re about making sure there’s still enough of you left for the things that matter.
If you’ve ever agreed to something and immediately regretted it… this one’s for you.
Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com
Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.
Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!
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TIMELINE
00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:46 – Topic of the Week – The No Toolkit – Boundaries for ND Brains
00:01:21 – Topic introduction – No, boundaries and protection
00:03:28 – Why the concept of “no” feels so big & risky
00:05:19 – How burnout affects priorities, no as a survival tactic
00:06:32 – The cost of “no” and creating room for rest and recovery
00:09:10 – What a disproportionate reaction to new boundaries means
00:10:51 – The cost of over-accommodation of others
00:12:43 – The bigger the excuse you give the more they have to work with
00:13:23 – The soft “no” – the calendar check-in before response
00:15:26 – Why saying “yes” is a dopamine trap…
00:17:05 – TANGENT 01 – Stu muses on ND’s naive quality that gets taken advantage of
00:18:20 – Boundaries aren’t control – it’s about protecting our energy
00:19:00 – TANGENT 02 – Hannah shares a real-world example of not saying no
00:20:03 – Do you respect and believe your own “No”?
00:20:50 – Resenting not saying NO!
00:22:13 – Approaches to saying “no”
00:26:40 – Dealing with repeat offenders
00:27:43 – Saying no to yourself is often the hardest boundary to impose
00:31:33 – Energy management lesson learned from running
00:32:02 – Rest Guilt and struggling to switch off and resting being “lazy”
00:35:28 – Why are you full of resentment when you say yes?
00:37:01 – Red flagging unwarranted and disproportionate push back Pt2.
00:37:50 – When “no” can be detrimental, conserve your energy strategically
00:40:22 – You don’t owe them your life story to put a boundary in place
00:43:17 – Stuart’s business confession about his diary
00:45:07 – The double empathy trap keeping you time-starved and energy poor
00:46:03 – Stu’s energy issues with short-notice change
00:47:40 – Is it you or your mask saying “yes”?
00:50:08 – HELL YEAH! or F&CK NO!
00:50:30 – Hannah takeaways and insights
00:54:45 – Stu’s top tips and thoughts
00:57:58 – Thank you and goodbye
00:59:47 – LENGTH
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RESOURCES
Link to the Neuro-inclusive Manifesto – what we’d like to see our lawmakers do to protect neurodiversity in society
https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.
https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!
https://businessoddcast.com/help – A range of resources for neurodivergent business owners.
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Stuart: The Business podcast. Welcome to the Business Podcast. I’m your host, uh, Stuart Morrison, and right alongside me, my co-conspirator, co-host, partner in crime, Hannah Logan. Hello, Hannah Logan. Welcome. How you doing?
Hannah: I’m good. I’m good, Stu. Yeah, I know we’ve discussed this week’s topic. Uh, we we’ve been around this on a number of occasions and we’ve discussed a lot of the elements in here, but we’re going on a deep dive.
Stuart: So, do you want to tell us what this week’s topic is?
Hannah: Oh, Stu. Yeah, I can’t decide whether this is going to be like me sobbing and you getting a bit embarrassed by it all or it’s just going to be like this kind of empowering. Anyway, stop rambling, Hannah. Today is ‘the no toolkit boundaries for ND brains’.
Stuart: So, we’re going to be finding out a lot about where each other’s boundaries are and the rules that we got in place.
Hannah: I think we’re going to find out I haven’t got any and you’ve got lots, Stu – is probably the answer to that.
Stuart: Thank you for listening to this episode of the business podcast. That’s basically the end. Hannah sucks at boundaries. Stuart’s got Hannah and Stuart’s share of boundaries. That’s the answer to that.
Hannah: Um so just to kind of summarise this episode a bit for a lot of us or for a lot of people I would imagine that saying ‘no’ can actually feel disproportionately difficult. And that’s not always because we don’t have limits or because, well, it isn’t always because we don’t have limits. It’s not necessarily a complete lack of boundaries, but more so a lot of us feel responsible for the other person’s feelings, their comfort, expectations, all of that stuff. So, for example, when I say no to somebody, I am already preempting how they’re going to feel. To a lot of folks out there that’s not even a thing that crosses their brain. And that’s because a lot of neurodivergent people are really highly empathetic, so highly responsive and really sensitive to rejection. We’ve talked in other episodes about the rejection sensitivity. And because a lot of us, I’m guessing pretty much all of us have that, we’re therefore in that mindset that the other person might take that no in the same way that we do. So this episode reframes no as a sort of form of protection rather than confrontation.
Stuart: Yeah, I like that. I do confess that to shift me from my default ‘no’ position to a yes is much harder than most. But I’d like to flag that I have raging PDA and if anyone demands that I do something, then Oh no., I’m so bad. PDA is brutal. It is. It’s terrible.
Hannah: The moment they say I need you, too. My brain goes, yeah, I’m done. “No, Hannah, I need you, to…”. No! I don’t know what you’re going to say, but I am 100% not doing it. I’m not five. I do not need to be told what to do. Jesus.
Stuart: And we’re off.
Hannah: So, let’s have a look, you know. Let’s have a quick look. But why no, the word no can feel or the concept of no can feel bigger than it really is. Um, because for some of us it feels risky. So we worry about the impact. And a lot of us also crave approval. So saying no risks all of that or in our minds it risks all of that. Like I said about the rejection sensitivity, we really want to avoid those situations because we know how brutal RSD is, or can be. And we also generally avoid conflict. I mean, no one likes conflict, but because we’ve probably had more conflict than most in our lifetimes as neurodivergent people. Um, we particularly hate it and we know that saying no potentially opens us up to conflict and it can trigger a fear of sort of disappointing others.
Stuart: Oh, the look in somebody’s eyes when you give a no when they’ve expected—Crushed look.
Hannah : I actually feel a bit sad now just thinking of anybody that’s had that crushed face. A lot of us ,we’ve had a lifetime of being made to feel that we’re disappointing, you know, like “oh Hannah’s done it again”. So “no” is a statement that more often than not is going to get some kind of push back from the other person. Or it is going to disappoint them, you know, if they’re hoping for a yes. And also people pleasing. Saying no doesn’t support our desire, for a lot of us, to people please, does it? It’s kind of the absolute opposite of that.
Stuart: Also, agreement means that you keep the status quo usually. I didn’t always have a very hard “no” boundary. Until the first massive implosion and that was when I decided to employ the “no”. Just way too many. I reflected then and that was without any knowledge of my neurodivergence that I needed to say no. I just needed it. And in fact the “no” was imposed on me because I just didn’t have any energy. So even if I’d have said yes, I’d have just been disappointing people because I wouldn’t have turned up. Learning “no” for me was a survival tactic.
Hannah: That makes sense. And it feels to me like you were very self-aware. um pretty early on.
Stuart: So, somebody said this to me and I can’t remember who it was, but it stuck. And it’s like, if you cannot respect my no, then you can’t respect my yes. Because you’re going to expect my yes. And if it’s an expectation it’s like, well, I’m sorry. You don’t respect me if you can’t handle my no because. That just means I’m a yes man at that point. And if anybody knows me, that’s certainly not the role I’m ever going to fit well into. I was looking back on my working years and I think I shared with you one of the last dates that I was employed. What was it? 94 some somewhere around that 94, 95?
Hannah: 95 that was it.
Stuart: Um and looking back then I could see the signs that I was saying yes but everything about me you was no and eventually my body caught up and it went “nah I can’t do any of this, just, you need to lie down for a long time”. Yeah but that was the formative years of going through what I look back on as 10 years of hell, and then just realizing that actually when I say no I get more time to myself. I get more of my own energy. I get to enjoy my energy rather than just running around being this helpmate to people Oh god, the things I did at just a moment’s notice. Somebody, “oh, my car’s broken down”. Oh, I’ll be there. You know, dropping everything and dashing over and then spending the rest of the day because that was the template I was shown by my parents. Oh, you’ve got to be a helpful person. But actually, no, I’m really sorry. I can’t come out right now. If you want help, I can help you Wednesday. If that’s no help right now, then I’m really sorry. And I believe that learning how to say that and delivering it with empathy, you know, I’m not talking about being an absolute dick. But if you can’t, you can call me and ask for help, but that call is not an automatic obligation. Um, oh yeah, Stuart, but you know, family, you know, blood’s thicker than water etc. Yeah, but you’ve got to put your own oxygen mask on first. And if you’re depleting your energy to help somebody else who’s got normal standard gen pop issue energy, you’re not helping yourself. You’ve got to remember that that energy comes at a cost.
Hannah: Yeah, absolutely.
Stuart: And I think the problem is if you are a ‘yes’ person, then eventually quite quickly it turns into when you do say no, you’re treated like, oh, what’s wrong with you? You’re so unfair and it’s just a no. But because they’re so used to yes, yes, yes. Suddenly it’s a really big deal if you actually find your boundaries for one occasion.
Hannah: Um Yeah. Yeah, I get it. It is tough, and especially when you like you said you start to employ it because people see the change and I see this quite a lot. I see this so much. Somebody enforces a boundary, especially when they’re suddenly realizing that they need boundaries, and then you get a reaction from the other side which is disproportionate to the boundary you’ve put in. And at that point you know that you’re being taken advantage of.
Stuart: And I think way too few people realize neurotypicals, neurodivergent, it doesn’t matter. The point is if you put in a boundary and the other person blows up out of nowhere when it’s a perfectly reasonable boundary, then the problem doesn’t lie inside the boundary.
Hannah: No. Absolutely. That I remember when I first got to the boundaries section of my therapy, one of my many therapies. We’ve documented that well on these. “Therapist number 25. Come in. Welcome to the challenge that is Hannah”. Um when we got to the boundaries section of that little relationship. Um I implemented it to some close family members outside of my husband and kids. And one of them said, “What’s happened to you? You used to be so kind. What’s wrong? What’s going on? Your therapist has changed you. You’re not the same person.”
Stuart: Isn’t that the point?
Hannah: Yes. Exactly. Spent thousands But you know what? Because I was, so I still am to some degree, you know, that did make me think, “oh yes”, you know, I need to change back. So it’s messed up, isn’t it?
Stuart: Yeah. Let’s move on to point number two. The over accommodation being a survival strategy. And I get it. I mean, who amongst us hasn’t been in a social setting where you’re getting along, you’re ticking along, you’re doing whatever you’re doing. Um, but you realize that, and this smacks to say this, that your use to the group is completely utilitarian. Your inclusion in the group is dependent on being available for lifts, putting your hand in your pocket more than most, being a friendly ear, somebody that they can phone at a moment’s notice, and you will drop everything and get around that. That kind of friendship is not friendship coz what happens is when you go to use the friendship in the same way. So you go to a third party and say “oh, you know, can you?” They’re always busy. They’re always doing something else. It’s not necessarily even a no. It’s just “oh if only you’d asked sooner”. Do you know what I mean? And then you go into that place in your head like they’re right. “Yeah. Yeah. It was a bit of an ask and, oh, it was a bit last minute” And you overcompensate for them. No, I just learned that no is a complete sentence. It’s a, you know, poster you can put up on your wall. But if they then need further explanation, they’re not your friend. Okay, you may offer further information. You may give context so that it doesn’t land so brutally. But if you just say, “No, sorry, I can’t.” And the person lights up like blackpool illuminations at Christmas. Well, we found our problem and it’s not inside the boundary.
Hannah: I’ve seen it where the moment that you give them a little bit more, you know, “sorry, I can’t do that because I’ve got a really busy day”. That moment you give them a bit more, they’ve got something to work with. “Oh, well, if you move this on that day, you won’t be so busy”. And then they start haggling with you about, you know.
Stuart: yes, they enter into a negotiation like a toddler.
Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.
Stuart: But you don’t negotiate with the toddler. You set the boundary. You explain the boundary. If the toddler’s rolling around thrashing on the floor, you don’t get down on the floor and thrash around with them, do you?
Hannah: Well, um, unfortunately, quite a lot of the adults I know. Not anymore, Stu. That’s progress.
Stuart: But yes, and it’s that agreeing too quickly. So, here’s a tip. If you feel like you have to say no, but you can’t bring yourself to say no, especially in the early days, then you need to give yourself time. And the way that I used to do it was “I can’t come back to you right now. I’ve got to look at my diary because there’s a few soft pencils and I need to confirm some things before I can say yes. So, and that prepares them for the no. So, when your ‘no’ comes, it’s much less brutal. You know, you’ve put them in the foot bath before nudging them into the deep end.
Hannah: Oh my god, I love that analogy so much. And I actually said to my daughter, because she has a real problem with quite a lot of, um, most human interaction really. But I said that she’s in burnout and at work they’re always saying, “Oh, could you also come in on Friday?” And she always says yes. And I said, “Look, darling, you need to take a rest. You need less work, not more.” And she says, “Oh, I but I hate that if I can just say yes, they go away. If I say no, you start a, you know, a conversation she doesn’t want to have.” And I used you as an example and I said just say “can I get back to you on that please I need to check”.
And then that’s a kind of soft, like you said, it’s the foot bath. It’s a soft “this may not happen for you” and they’re preparing themselves. And hopefully they are planning the backup plan assuming that you might say no.
Stuart: Yeah there’s the other problem you get with “oh Stu’s flaky”. Well I’m really sorry from your perspective that I didn’t drop everything at a moment’s notice to leap to your economic, financial, physical, you know, are we related? Are you a child of mine? No. So, take a ticket and wait.
Hannah: That’s also known as “I’m not your bitch”
Stuart: Yes.
Hannah: Hannah’s sweary version. Sorry, anybody that’s averse to those words.
Stuart: But it can feel so good saying yes coz the reward is somebody going, “Oh, you’re amazing. Oh, you’re fantastic.” That can feel so validating. You know, it’s the white knight thing. Men do it quite a lot of the time. You know, they swoop in and try and act like they’re Batman. The point of it is it can feel really good to say yes because you get that instant bit of dopamine from everyone going, “Yay!” Stuart said yes. And that is that reinforces the boundary on the wrong side. That’s the wrong way around. That shrinks your boundary because every time you get that little dopamine hit of “yay” where else are you going to get it? They don’t do it out of the blue. They don’t give you a slap on the, you know, I’m talking about not real friends. Not, you know, I’ve got to know who my real friends are. I know the people that I can phone and rely on when I need some help. But the same way I have a boundary the other way that I wouldn’t phone my mate up unless it was an absolute life or death emergency. demand their attention and instant action. That’s not respecting the other person at all.
And so many times you look back on your neurodivergent career as a neurodivergent. And you look and you go, “Yeah, that was them taking advantage. That was them taking the absolute piss and that was me letting them take the absolute piss.” And it’s when you start to recognise your own complicity in the whole thing and that’s when you start to have to have a real conversation with yourself. And so going off a bit of a tangent, the thing that I’ve noticed amongst neurodivergent folk is they’re very naive and childlike. There is a quality that, not every single person obviously, but there is a way of looking at the world which is positive and is great and it gets beat out of you by people taking advantage of you and spotting that naivete and taking the absolutely living piss out of you. And you don’t want to say no because you’re like “oh well I’m being a good bro. I’m being a good human” and then they’re validating that going “yeah you’re amazing, you’re fantastic” and they’re not. You’re only amazing and fantastic all the time you’re saying yes. As soon as you say no, boundary enforced, barred gate. Really sorry it’s locked you cannot come this side of it because it’s a no Yeah, it’s a life sorter. It will sort your life out. It will get rid of all the problem people. All the people whose arms wave around the moment they hear the word no. Yeah, you’re on the list. I can safely ignore you in my life now.
Hannah: That moves us quite nicely on to the next section. Boundaries aren’t about control. It may feel like having boundaries is about control, but actually it’s about sustainability. Because when we protect our time and energy, it protects us and our neurodivergent wiring, right? And boundaries for everybody protect their time and energy, but for us, our time and energy is limited. Um, so it’s even more important. So, it’s about energy preservation, you know, avoiding overload. We know that we often like to, or I don’t know if like’s the right word, we end up spinning 50 plates and then it all comes crashing down quite severely. And a lot of that is I mean, here’s a really quick example. Yesterday morning, I had a really quite important hospital appointment. A woman phoned me in regard to my capacity as a parish counselor. And as she said, have you got time now to talk? Everything in my brain said, “No, Hannah, you need to get ready for the hospital appointment.” And I wanted to get there super early because that’s my MO. I either get there very late or I get there super early. Um, anyway, I didn’t. I said, “Yes, of course.” Chatted away. The whole time I was looking at the clock getting more and more anxious and I got to my appointment about one minute before it was due which was really stressful.
Stuart: Yeah.
Hannah: Um and it taught me unfortunately there was a bit of shame that went on there though because I felt stupid you know.
Stuart: Oh Hannah you knew you shouldn’t you know.
Hannah: And if I’d said to this lovely lady “actually I’m a bit up against it at the moment. Can I ping you a message and we can chat tomorrow or something”. She’d have been absolutely fine. So yeah bizarre I’ve gone off on a tangent.
Stuart: No, no, you haven’t. You’ve brought in a relevant point because you have to respect your own ‘no’ first. That’s the key to it. It’s not just saying no. Anyone can say no. It’s just a word. You’ve got to believe it. And you’ve got to believe it when you’re saying no to yourself and being the adult to your inner child.
Hannah: Yeah.
Stuart: Like you know there are times even in recent memory just this year I can think I should have been firmer with my own no to myself because I went to that one extra thing in the week and it’s wiped me. And then I have to pay the repercussions for that for three or four days of taking it slow. And learning that lesson is a really valuable lesson because the ‘no’ regulates the energy.
Hannah: Yeah, I can relate to that and it makes a lot of sense. And I think another um one thing that I really struggle with, and I can recognise it but I really struggle with it, is the resentments of not saying no. I get, and I’m embarrassed to admit this really Stu, but I’ll say yes to somebody and as far as they’re concerned I’ve said yes. You know, Hannah’s agreed. That’s fine, she’s all right with that. And then I spend the the inner monologue is like “for fucks sake, they’re really taking the piss out of me. I can’t believe they asked me to do that”. You know, why am I having to do this on my Sunday morning? Because you said yes you lunatic, that’s why you’re having to do it. You had an option at that point. You were at a T- Junction and you could have said no and then you wouldn’t have wanted to kill this person. You know, they asked, you said no and all’s right with the world. But you didn’t, you said yes and here you are on a Sunday morning bitching about somebody that’s oblivious because you said yes. So I’m like “what the hell”. So, I mean it, we know that ‘no’ works in our favor it’s so obvious. I’ve just talked us through that. Um, and yes, it completely works against our energy and yet it’s so hard sometimes. It really is, isn’t it? And that kind of leads us nicely onto point four really on ways we can try and master those no skills a bit more.
Stuart: Yes. So, having a few stock responses, a few scripts, a few tried and trusted strategies in your pocket. I was reading a thing last night on Reddit about somebody whose birthday was completely ruined. It was their day off. They’d planned their day to do nothing, to meet no one, to go nowhere, to preserve their energy, to just lie in bed and do pottering in their own uh space. And there was a knock on the door and it was the downstairs neighbor who barged their way in with a cake and demanded that they did this performative thing. And then she spent an hour there and it completely dysregulated and took took out the energy, you know, completely changed the day for them and their question was “how do I stop this happening, because this person inserts themselves all the time in my life and I don’t want to be an unfriendly person but by the same token this ruined my entire day. I then had a 2hour nap to deal with it.
My suggestion for this is the idea that you put a boundary in, and that it’s irrefutable. You can’t come back to me and negotiate with me. It’s the boundary. So, you have to have a few strategies that make people go, “Oh, oh, that’s the boundary.” So, the first one is the soft one. We’ve just said that. I’ll check my diary. I’m not quite sure. I’m quite busy and I’ve got a few deadlines. I just haven’t got some stuff in my diary and before I trip us both up, you know, that’s a great excuse, especially in business, that uh you want to be sure that you’re going to turn up the best you that is needed. The second one is, and I do get migraines. I get frequent migraines. They are a pain in the backside and they can just wipe me out for days. Especially when I have a cluster of them, two or three, or one that persists. So when I say this, I’m not using this as an excuse, but I have told people, “I can’t . I’ve got a migraine”. And they just go away. They evaporate. And it might not actually be a physical migraine that I’m having, but I know that if I say yes and they come when I’m stressed and it’s not when I’m actually stressed, it’s the moment the stress comes off. So, you know, I’ll be in an emotional crunch situation or a deadline and a load of work on top of me and the moment that the deadline passes, my body goes, “Oh, thank God.” And my brain goes, “Nah, have a migraine.” So, to prevent the migraine, I can say, “Oh, I’m really sorry. I can’t. I’ve got a migraine or I’ve just had a migraine.” Because I don’t want to lie to people, but it just stops the conversation. It stops me having to over explain. Nine times out of 10, I either have had or are in the middle of a migraine, but I’ve used it as a no, just a no.
Hannah: It’s easier for them to understand. It’s more tangible, isn’t it?
Stuart: That’s it. Rather than my energy being completely depleted and if I say yes and turn up, you’re not going to get the best of me and this is going to be a nightmare. It’s so exposing because you constantly have to tell people about your disability and put it in a context which they’re not going to socially shame you for or go “what, you haven’t had a day’s rest well? I haven’t had a…” It’s like this badge of honor isn’t it? “I haven’t had a days rest. I’ve worked all the time. I’ve never slept in four years. Why do you need so much? You know, I’ve got these scripts, these strategies, these approaches that make it tangible for the person. Up until now I have used this one. This one takes a little bit of speed and attack. You can’t deliver this one languidly. So, uh the person asks you to say something uh to do something and you say, “Uh, I would help you, but unfortunately I don’t want to.”
Hannah: Oh my god, that’s gold.
Stuart: Coz their brain goes, “Oh, right. Yeah.” And they don’t analyze it. They just don’t analyze it. They just skip over it. All right. Okay. Thanks, dude. And again, you know, they’re all laughing. But you’re not helping them and you’re walking away. So, it’s like you’ve done a mic drop moment. They’ve all laughed and you’re off the stage. So, think about these things ahead of time and there will be a few repeat offenders in your life. I guarantee you people who don’t understand the concept of a boundary, let alone adhering to one when it’s pointed out. These are the people that you know you should shove out of the aircraft at 30,000 ft.
Hannah: Piss takers. As I like to call them!
Stuart: But yeah, so that would be my top tip in this instance. Think of a few strategies that you can use which are irrefutable. Up to and including, and I’ve said this on so many occasions, right on hearing of my death every single person listening to this is a close personal friend and you can have a day off. There, you go to your boss. Not today, oh no, not in two weeks time, no, it’s a funeral. I’m going to do that. You don’t have to on the day. You don’t. Your intention to go is all that is needed at the time. I’m a terrible person.
Hannah: Oh my god, that’s brilliant. If you’re terrible, I don’t want to be anything else. So, next really is Yeah, I struggle with this. Saying no to yourself.
Stuart: Yeah.
Hannah: Um it’s often the hardest boundary really because so many of us carry so much self-imposed pressure. These kinds of unrealistic expectations, perfectionism, ‘need to do more’ pressure, you know, we’re never quite, and I’m I’m not saying we’re all like this, by the way. You may not be nodding along to this, but I certainly am. And I can only speak for myself on this really, but just that kind of it has to be perfect because anything less and I’m left wondering what if, but I could have done that bit and you know, and it it tortures me like a horribly toxic brain worm for forever and ever and ever. Um, and it’s bloody exhausting and it’s so relatable for me.
Stuart: Yeah. My only problem with that is if I’m like that before the project starts, I’m much more likely to say no. If I realise I can’t reach the impossible perfection of the shining example of what I need to do to produce, then I’m much more likely to say no. Because it’s like, why do something halfarsed? And unfortunately that can exclude you from doing some really interesting projects, or things, because like in your head it’s never going to live up to it. So you back out of it almost.
Hannah: Yeah. 100% that. And I think you know that perfectionism leads to a, or can lead to, a real kind of ‘every task turns into a giant monumental project’. You know over complicating and overplanning these things because we’re desperately trying to avoid mistakes or we feel more in control if we plan them out that way. But actually then you’re making, you know, a sort of mountain out of a molehill for some of these things.
Stuart: Yeah.
Hannah: Um, also excessive commitments. I am a joke in my local village. I’m like the person that’s permanently got their hand up because it won’t go down. Um, and you know that I do, although I joke about it, it’s not quite that bad. I would say no if I had to. And actually the truth is I really enjoy getting involved in local projects and stuff. But the problem is although my intentions are good when I’m saying yes, you know, then I wonder why a lot of the time or I can be overwhelmed and that’s not ideal at all.
Stuart: That’s why I recommend a 4 day work week because then Friday is your buffer.
Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. And I am starting to do that now and it does make a real difference.
Stuart: I’m not the best at it at all times, but when I am energy depleted. That’s when I know I have to enforce it more than most because I genuinely do not wish to burn out as hard. I’m sure I’m going to have brownouts. I’m sure I’m going to have off days and weird things and it just comes with the territory. And as you age, your energy becomes even more of a scarce resource. But my energy dependence, in other words, my life requires me to have very good boundaries. Otherwise, I’m either 100 miles an hour or stop.
Hannah: yes,
Stuart: And whilst I am all gas and no brakes, as the colonials like to say, I do respect my own energy now a lot more than I used to. I will stop working in the garden at 4:00, whereas before I would push myself till 7-8 until Gemma’s coming out going, “Are you going to stop anytime?”
Hannah: Stu’s face down on the lawn. Yeah. Jem’s trying to drag him back into the..
Stuart: To be fair, running has taught me a lot about conserving my energy because when you run a long distance, you don’t sprint to start with. And you realise that the energy you burn in mile 26 has got to be the same as you burn in mile one. It doesn’t get easier. So, you know, conserving your energy and pacing yourself, I think in your life with the word ‘no’ being used very liberally.
Hannah: So here’s an idea as the sort of end of this section that I’m doing: “rest guilt”. So I really struggle with severe guilt if I’m resting and I think well I don’t think I know that the reason I keep saying I’ll do it is to put my hand up for a million things is because I know that I need to be busy all the time. I mean, I’ve told you this before, Stu, and I’ve undoubtedly mentioned it on one of our podcasts, but I won’t even have a bath because it feels like a waste of life minutes. I lie in, and this is the honest to God truth. The last bath I had, I had to because my physio said, “You really need to soak in warm water.” Got in the bath. I felt angry while I was pouring like it was the Victorian times. I felt angry while I was running the bath. Then I thought, “Oh, I wonder how long I can stay in it or how short a time I can stay in it and still get some kind of benefit from the warm water.” Anyway, within, I’m guessing, about 3 minutes, I started to feel really angry. I was like, “What am I doing?” Literally just lying in water when I could be doing stuff. And so, I got out and it, you know, that’s because I really struggled to switch off um because for me, for whatever reasons resting feels lazy.. You know, I 100% know that resting is not lazy. It’s completely essential. Um, but for some reason I have this feeling that it’s lazy, unproductive, undeserved. We’ve talked about that before, haven’t we? It’s not a reward for being busy.
Stuart: Busy-ness is a modern plague, and it’s played out every weekend across every single child’s life in this country. I saw somebody the other day, their daughter had been swimming, obviously been swimming, she had wet hair and then she was coming out of the swimming pool in a tutu and they were saying, “Oh, off to dance class now.” And it’s like, I get it. You know, little ones need exercise and have hobbies and interests. And I’m not saying you should sit at home and do nothing, but the constant “we’re doing this thing and then we’re doing this next thing, and then we’re doing this next thing, and there’s this other thing”. Hands up. Anyone who’s got a diary with an entry in it that just says hold with nothing planned. Literally nothing planned. Anyone? Anyone present? Anyone?
Hannah: Just you.
Stuart: Just me. Just me. Yeah, I will put hold in my diary with nothing specific to do that day because one, my brain will do something that day. It just will. But two, it gives me permission to not do something. Especially when I look ahead in my diary and I go, “Oh, Christ. I’ve got four days of back-to-back meetings and driving places and that’s just going to deplete me. Well, I need to be energized before I go. I can’t go to that off the back of a weekend of digging in the garden. So, I’ll have a Sunday off. Just do nothing. Feet up doing nothing. And that’s me saying no to myself. No, Stuart. No, you have to respect the fact that you’ve got five days of very energetic back-to-back business stuff.
Hannah: Absolutely vital. And I think that leads us quite nicely onto the next point, which is a kind of deeper dive. I touched on resentment earlier and this next point really is a deeper dive on resentment.
Stuart: Yeah. It’s a useful tool in some respects. It’s useful because if you start to feel resentment then examine why. It’s not just you’re resenting the person. You’re probably resenting the situation at its base. And that’s probably because you’ve said yes when you needed to say no. And resentment can creep in really quickly when you’ve got no energy because you just start feeling negative because you’ve got no energy. You’re like, “Oh, I’m tired. I’ve got to go and do this thing. I don’t want to go and do this thing.” And so, you know, you start to shut down. My auditory processing goes. I have hard time putting what’s in my head into actual words. It gets worse when I’m tired. It gets worse when I’m hungry. So, years ago, I worked with a guy and he said, “Never try to have an important conversation with someone who’s cold, tired, and hungry. And those are wise words coming out of the mouth of this idiot. Oh, he was. Just don’t take my word for it. But Stuart, we’ve all got our unique special gifts. Yes, we have. And I’m sure he did. But..
Hannah: ..his was being an idiot.
Stuart: His was a special gift. Yeah, he got up early and practiced.
Hannah: He had a natural ability.
Stuart: Yeah, he had a natural ability or two, but every morning he’d get up and he’d ‘stupid’ for Britain.
Hannah: I must be an idiot today in the mirror.
Stuart: But if the no produces unwanted outbursts or negative behaviors in the other person, unwarranted outside of the the size of the no, then that’s a red flag. That really for me is a red flag on the human. Um because if they can’t respect my no, they won’t respect my yes. They just won’t respect any of my boundaries. They’ll just stomp all over it. So therefore, you are on the watch list, matey. Um, and that becomes a problem when it’s your boss! Made redundant three times in three years. There’s a pattern there, isn’t there? There really is a Let’s look at the root cause of this year. Was it the three bosses or was it you?
Hannah: It was the bosses. Absolutely.
Stuart: No, I just, I went through a period where I just had the hardest PDA. Um, because everyone was attacking me, it felt like my oppositional defiance and my pathological demand avoidance were flaming red hot and if anybody asked me to do anything, it was pretty much an automatic no, which was detrimental. You know, I’m not saying be that guy. That guy was not a happy guy. But by the same token, you have to conserve your energy and understand for yourself where I’m going to have to say no. Why is that? I’ve got a lot coming up. I’ve got a lot on and I just need that day to prepare for it. They don’t know what the preparation is. Feet up on the sofa with a gin in your hand. Good for you. You know, put on a funny movie, sit with a fam, stroke a cat, all of the above together.
Hannah: Yeah, exactly.
Stuart: That’s my preparation. And that’s why I said no. Because if I don’t do that and I do your thing, when it comes to my thing on Monday, I won’t give the best of me. And those people are paying me for the best of me, not Stuart turning up half arsed. And there’s quite a lot of the times I’ll say no because I just know I’m not going to do a good job even if I’ve got the time to do it. But it’s not just the time, it’s just not the physical presence, it’s also the use of your energy. So when you say yes, you’re agreeing to take a dollop of your life energy and spend it on their project or their thing. And that’s great and that’s fine. And I’m not saying don’t be a useful, helpful human, but know that once you’ve spent that energy, you have to recover it from somewhere coz it’s gone. So, where are you getting it back from? Resting up. Well, yeah, but when? And that’s the point. Put hold in your diary. Big hold, big red line around it. Doesn’t matter. Somebody could come to me. If I’ve got hold in my diary, somebody can come to me and go, “We’re going to the beach. We’re going to, uh, pleasure Beach. We’re going to then go on to do this thing and all expenses paid all the rest.” No”. Oh, but Stuart, why
Hannah: FOMO? Stu, how can you not get fear of missing out?
Stuart: No, they’re missing out by not having me there.
Hannah: I love that so much.
Stuart: Everyone’s looking at their life through the wrong end of the telescope. You are where you are. You’re in the right place. Why? Because you’re there. If you’re not, go somewhere else.
Hannah: Oh my god. Brilliant. So that’s fabulous. So the next point really, is that we’ve said no is a complete sentence, but actually sometimes in reality you do find yourself having to give a little bit more than that two-letter word, although that is like life goals right there. So, the next goal is to create a “no” without overexplaining. You don’t owe them your life story to put in a boundary. You know, I feel like I need to say that again out loud just for my own benefit. We don’t owe them our life story. “No, I can’t. Sorry, I can’t do that. All of those”. Or just “no”. shorter the response, the better chance you’ve got of not being dragged into or forced into those long over explanations. And then, ideally you avoid those kinds of defensive justifications. The goal really is to avoid terrible excuses. I remember growing up, and I think I now realise my mom had the same issues as I have with this stuff. Growing up, my mom would say if I felt a bit peaky or probably hung over if I was sort of late-teens. Um, and I’d say to mum, you know, “I don’t want to go to work. I’m not feeling it or my throat’s sore”, whatever. And she’d say, “Well, tell them that your nan died and that you’re all a bit upset.” And at the time, I was like, “Genius, they’re not going to question that.” But now, as an adult, I’m like, “What the what the fuck? You can’t make up random relatives who have died because you don’t want to go to work.”
Stuart: Yeah, you can. I just told you.
Hannah: Then you have to follow up that story.
Stuart: That’s why you don’t pick a close relative. It’s a friend. There is no limit to the number of friends you’re allowed to have and they’re all tragic in their deaths.
Hannah: I’ve been there. But then you get caught out. You know, if you’ve got an ADHD brain, then someone’s like, “Oh, you know, how’s your nan now?” And I’m like, “What?”
Stuart: That’s why you don’t choose your..
Hannah: “You said your nan went to hospital?”. Oh god. Yeah, she’s fine. Yeah, but you said she was in the ICU. Oh shit. Yeah, I did, didn’t I?
Stuart: So, this is the thing. If you get good at lying, you’re good at everything.
Hannah: Oh my god.
Stuart: There’s a top tip there.
Hannah: I was just about to say just tell the truth because then you don’t have to. But, you know.
Stuart: Yes. But then you end up with “no, I don’t want to”.
Hannah: Yeah.
Stuart: I would like to help you, but I don’t want to. And it should be enough. That’s what’s frustrating because actually the goal of these situations is to reduce cognitive labor, right? It’s a massive mental effort and emotional processing.
Hannah: Yeah, to have to kind of fabricate, or create rather, this ridiculous scenario where actually it should be that simple. Could you do this? Could you feed my cat next week? I’m sorry I can’t. The end.
Stuart: All right. This is a confession. This is a business confession. So, you know, when you send somebody “we should have a meeting”, I shape my week before I will suggest that. And so, I’ll go into my diary booking system and I’ll put big blocks of hold in because if I’ve got a meeting in the morning I don’t want another meeting that morning so the rest of the morning is blocked out. I could have another meeting but two back-to-back meetings plus the workload for that day don’t forget it just it’s just too much
Hannah: That is such good advice because actually one of my consultants said that I should not be doing more than one big thing a day. And by big thing they meant a meeting. If you’ve got an intense meeting, a couple of hours, then you know that the rest of the day you need to just be chilling at home.
Stuart: Oh, if I got an invite to a three-hour meeting.
Hannah: That’s a hard nope, Stu, isn’t it?
Stuart: There would be some ‘I’m not going to be there’ for the first hour or the last hour, your pick. Or the middle hour. I can go away and come back again.
Hannah: The first time I saw you in a meeting, and obviously you were my mate before then, but the first time I was in a meeting with you. I was literally, I hope this doesn’t embarrass you. I apologise if it does. I was just in awe. Obviously you’re really professional, but the way that you boundaried your time and when it got to a point where it was the kind of you know which of us are going to put their hands up and you were incredible. Because you were just like, “Yeah, I can’t commit to anything like that at the moment.” And you had your whole list of things you did have to do. So, I just thought, “Oh, that’s a life goal. Meanwhile, I’m like, “What? You want me to go around to your house and feed your rabbits and cut your grass?” And I was just like, “Yes, yes, yes.”
Stuart: So, they talk about the double empathy problem, and we will discuss it in depth perhaps in one future episode. But this is the problem. You completely and immediately put yourself in the other person’s shoes and go, “Oh god, not having your cat fed, that would completely dysregulate me if I was in your shoes. So, I want to take that away from you. So, I’ll say yes.” And even though it means I’m going to burn through so many spoons extra this week, I will take that on. And although they think you’ve done them a small favor, it disproportionately leverages your time out of the boundaries that you need it to be within and your energy. And that’s the problem. And it stacks because it’s not “just”. It’s the word “just”. Can you “just” feed my cat? Yeah, fine. And then somebody says, can you just give me a lift, too? Oh, could you just move that meeting? Could you “just”, and everybody’s asking for “just, just, just”. And you’re giving of yourself. And that’s all extra even just the cognitive energy. I have real problems with short notice changes. If I know that short notice change is possible then short notice change will be fine. It’s short notice change without any context or understanding that is an expectation for me to then do something that has been thrust upon me. That’s likely to get the biggest amount of push back and resentment. This is the strange thing about this entire condition. Might wake up one day, get something thrown at me that’s a last minute change. I take it in my stride. It’s not even a problem. Another day and it’s a hand grenade. You know, somebody’s thrown a live hand grenade at me and I’m, you know, it’s going to depend on what’s happened the days before, my energy levels, how hungry I am, how tired I am, how much sleep I got. Um, there’s a number of dominoes that can fall that can make it worse than it actually presents as to the other person and they don’t see any of that and it’s like I’m managing a three- ring circus and you say can you just look after can you just
Hannah: So frustrating and a lot of us really rely on that routine and knowing what we’ve got coming up and you know for somebody I look at my week as a whole and I kind of think, oh, Wednesday is a bit rough, but Thursday is nice. And then if somebody suddenly changes, the nice chill Thursday suddenly becomes a chaos Thursday. I often can’t cope with that. Anyway, I think that leads us quite nicely into our final point, our final section.
Stuart: So when you enforce a boundary, you’re effectively saying this is who I am. This is defining in some regard of who you are, what you’re willing to do, not do, put up with, the way you treat yourself or others, all of those things. And I think it’s particularly hard for people who are masking because is it you saying yes or no or is it your mask? And are you doing it for the right reasons? So, it can be completely disorientating when you suddenly take off your mask. And this is where I think the resentment comes in. The social mask says yes because society says you need to be a helpful, productive member of society and your friends and relatives are the people you say yes to and you help and I genuinely believe that. But unfortunately, it gets weaponised against you. Your mask is weaponised against you because the social obligation of yes is asked of you and the inside creature goes, “No, no, there’s nothing worse than having to turn up in a suit on that day in that weather with those people and have to mask hard for four hours at a social event. and you say yes anyway and then you get to the event and you have to slap on a fake smile and plow through the shit one more time. As one of my favorite comedians said, if you know, put it in the comments. Um and and that’s the point is you take the mask off and you make an honest appraisal of it and you have to be able to say no because otherwise there’s no point in not having a mask that you’re demasking to you to yourself as much as you’re anyone else and you have to understand the harsh reality that comes when you say yes. And if you don’t, then you can’t be surprised when stacking up too many obligations that your social obligations that you’ve said yes to is any wonder you’re going burn out. You don’t have the energy for it. You don’t have the budget. You don’t have it. It doesn’t turn up in the same way. My energy turns up in 12-hour lumpy sessions over the course of a month. And I have to acknowledge that that’s how my brain wants to do things. and I’m along for the ride. And if I try to fight it, I become an unhappier person. And nobody wants to live an unhappy life. So to stay regulated, I had to learn the word no. Just to wrap it up, I think here’s the phrase. I heard this phrase many, many years ago. This isn’t my phrase, but I heard this phrase and I kind of use it now and it’s a very simple phrase to decide whether or not to do something. It’s either a hell yeah or a fuck no.
Hannah: Yes. Amen to that.
Stuart: So, that’s our episode. Hannah, what takeaways would you like to underline and tell people to go away and remember?
Hannah: Wow, there’s so much good stuff in there.
Stuart: Go and listen to it again. Go and listen to it again.
Hannah: I’m going to do that. I guess remembering that boundaries are self-preservation. You know, protecting your time, energy, and capacity is not selfish. And I think that’s often the thing that stops us doing it. You don’t want to look like the selfish mean person, you know, and people use that against us sometimes. Sometimes yes, they’re used to the yes or what’s happened? What’s wrong with you? Why are you now becoming mean? Also, the next point, really feeling guilty, and we often do, does not mean that something’s wrong. I think it’s just a conditioning for a lot of us that we are meant to feel responsible for everyone else’s comfort and feelings, but it’s not real and we need to remember that. Also, scripts. Yes, Stu talked you, talked us, talked all of us through some script ideas. Have your stock responses ready. Um, don’t forget the pause. You know, the kind of “can I get back to you on that?” It gives both of you some breathing space. Gives you a chance to go away and make up some elaborate story about your dog running away.
Stuart: My granddad, thinking about it he was the spreader. My mom’s dad. He was definitely the spreader. I got it from both grandparents and both parents. I’ve got super strain. Quadruple. So, get it all in him. Get him all the six. And uh his was Uh, “I’ve got to go. I’ve got things to do”. He would never be drawn on what those things were. No, I’ve just got things to do. What? What things? Just lots of things. He’d be gone by the time you got the question out. Can you buy I’ve got to go. Loads of stuff to do. Stuff to do. Things to do.
Hannah: Be more Stu’s grandad’s catchphrase! Um, and also a really good one for me and I need to remember this. Feeling resentful often means that you are overwhelmed because you’ve committed to something. You’re feeling resentful after the event, which is 99% of my life. And it means you’re overwhelmed. That’s why you’re feeling resentful that you’ve committed to something that you don’t actually have the capacity for. Um, and lastly, saying no builds selfrust. You know, who is going to advocate for you the best? Well, you. If even you can’t advocate for yourself and your own well-being, then there’s not much bloody hope, is there really?
Stuart: Well, I don’t want to give people shame and guilt over their inability through social conditioning, through life, through just general, you know, everyone dog piles on you when you’re in that. When you’re the only “no” in a room full of “yeses” or the social pressure, the peer pressure, unfortunately. Ah, it doesn’t wash with me. I just don’t have that. I don’t have that social shame. That’s one of the problems with it for me is I don’t know where that boundary is. And so sometimes I’m on the wrong side of that. Of course, you know, standing there all on my own going, “Why is everybody staring at me?” I call it being out on the pier. It’s like I’ve run down the social beach. Come on, everyone. Everyone’s following Stu and then he turns around and realises they stopped on the beach and I’ve run out on this massive great big pier and I’m staring back at them going, “Why didn’t anyone follow me?” And they’re all shaking their heads going, “I don’t know what he’s doing.” Pier boy.
Hannah: Pier boy. Oh my goodness. Sounds like a brilliant superhero. I wonder what Pier Boy would do. What would his special power be?
Stuart: Oh, Bingo.
Hannah: Yes. Full House constantly!
Stuart: That would be his name. Full House. License to Bingo in the sea.
Hannah: We need to go away and create this. We need to build a comic all about pier boy. Bingo boy.
Stuart: And his sidekick, Raffle.
Hannah: Raffle. Oh my god. Oh, this is genius. If anybody steals that idea, we’ll know where you got it from.
Stuart: The super villain Tom Bola. See what I did there? Hello, Tom Bola here. I’ve come to sell you some dodgy goods.
Hannah: Magnificent.
Stuart: Should we do some quick tips before we disappear down our rabbit hole? So, these are really quick and we’ve hit you over the head with why ‘no’ matters, but here we go. So, uh, pause before responding. Just because somebody’s asked you a question doesn’t mean to say you can’t put in a little pause. I need to check the diary. I just need to check in with my wife, my partner, my children, my boss, you know, whatever you need to do to give yourself a little fire break. Do not feel the pressure of that social immediacy because you can always follow up later and say yes or you can follow up later via email and say unfortunately that’s not going to work for me. I also find in a business setting when it’s an obligation offering an alternative I can’t do it on that day or I can’t do an in-person meeting or you know whatever. Why don’t we meet on Zoom or you know give them an alternative. Throw them a bone. Um next use short scripts. Those can really help. Have little shortcuts, little things in your head. You know I will use I’ve got a migraine to denote that my brain just won’t work for that day. That’s not a day my brain’s willing to work on. That also means you can keep track of your energy because that ultimately is how I manage my life. I don’t spend a financial budget. I spend and have an energy budget. And if things in my week are, you know, coming along that I’m having to say yes to on top of what I have to do, then what I have to do won’t get done because I won’t have the energy to do it. Finally, let the guilt pass. Get good at saying no and not feeling bad that you haven’t been able to help or facilitate or agree with, but you can’t be yes every single time. And sometimes it’s good to just say no. Just to let them know, yeah, I’m not just a yes man. No. Why? I don’t have to give you a reason, but unfortunately on that day, I’m laying in bed doing nothing anyway. And finally, review your commitments regularly. Look back at your last month. Get to the end of the month and take a little stock take. How are you feeling? Are you feeling regulated, disregulated, tired, wiped, exhausted. Are you using those words a lot to describe yourself? If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always got. So, if you look back through the month and you see in your diary way too many things, then you have to have a word with yourself. And also put in your diary when you’ve said a yes and you actually would have been better off saying no. Either retrospectively you look back and go that was a yes that should have been a no. Note it for next time. But also look for the places where you could have inserted a no and been better off at the end of the month with no detriment to yourself. So things like going to a social obligation maybe after work. I know it can feel really great to go out with people or it might be the worst thing in the world. You’re not doing yourselves any favors if you say yes because somebody’s put your arm up. Oh, it’s Christmas. Let’s go out for drinks. Yeah, it might be Christmas but my energy doesn’t know that. Anyway, that’s it. That’s our episode. That’s all of the information we’ve got for you. Uh if you’ve got any tips, hints, suggestions, or thoughts with regards to preserving your energy, painting your boundaries with indelible ink, and uh ensuring that people respect them, then let us know. Send uh anything you’ve got to us, hostsodcast.com. Um and like, share, subscribe, click all of the things that need clicking. Send them to people if you think that this has resonated and they need to hear this. Hannah, any last words?
Hannah: Last words. Uh, no, no final words.
Stuart: Your final words.
Hannah: Oh my god. Is this literally like the last things I’m ever going to say?
Stuart: And that’s why you’re in the ejector seat.
Hannah: I thought the seat looked different, Stuart. That sounds dark, doesn’t it? Um, no, no. That’s it. Nothing exciting at all.
Stuart: Brilliant.
Hannah: Um, next week we’ve got a blog for you. It’s a Lucky Dip blog. Who knows what it’s going to be. Exciting. Exciting. I’m trying to build some momentum. What will it be? What will it be? Who knows? But it will be awesome.
Stuart: It will be. It’ll be great. It will be a great blog. And um if you’ve got any questions that you want to ask, then great. Ask us the questions and uh we’ll happily happily help with any resources that we either have or uh that we’ve seen and can signpost for you. So, thank you very much for listening to another episode of the podcast and uh we’ll see you next time. All the very best. Goodbye.
Hannah: Amazing. Goodbye.