S01E38 – Guest Special – Emma Beattie from Unmasked Studio
For our very first guest episode, we’re joined by Emma Beattie, founder of Unmasked Studio, to talk about what neuroinclusion can look like when you move beyond awareness and start thinking about how people actually experience work.
After almost two decades working in technology, Emma’s ADHD diagnosis gave her a new understanding of how her brain works, as well as some of the challenges and strengths she’d experienced throughout her career.
That understanding also helped fuel her passion for neuroinclusion. Alongside her existing role, Emma went on to develop a neurodiversity programme within a global organisation, creating events and opportunities to celebrate neurodivergent colleagues and encourage more open conversations.
Now, through Unmasked Studio, she works with neurodivergent people and employers to help make inclusion work in practice.
We talk about:
- Why awareness is only the beginning
- The difference between performative and genuine inclusion
- How recruitment could work better for different brains
- Why small changes in communication can make a big difference
- Self-advocacy, boundaries and asking for what you need
- And why finding your people matters
- Plus, Hannah gets disproportionately annoyed about being asked what chocolate bar she’d be in a job interview. Which, frankly, feels justified.
Because genuine inclusion isn’t about ticking the right boxes.
It’s about creating environments where different people have the opportunity to do their best work.
Please share with anyone you think this topic might resonate with. Send any questions or suggestions to or contact us here: hosts@businessoddcast.com
Don’t forget to like and subscribe or follow along on the socials, see below timeline for details.
Together we can build a healthier, happier way to work!
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TIMELINE
00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:15 – Hanna and Stu introduction
00:00:35 – Neuroinclusive Workplace mention
00:01:23 – Emma Beattie introduction
00:02:14 – Emma’s employment backstory
00:04:40 – How work started to become harder around 30…
00:05:53 – How did life change after a diagnosis?
00:07:20 – Understanding and advocating for yourself in the workplace
00:08:55 – Background to starting a neuroinclusive program as an employee
00:11:01 – Pitching the idea of the Neurodiversity Awards event at work
00:13:38 – Expectations vs impact of the awards event
00:15:40 – Was there resistance from masked or not widely disclosed NDs?
00:16:40 – What’s the purpose of an “awareness day”? So… what’s next.
00:18:00 – The workplace assessment and requesting accommodations
00:20:50 – The importance of management “buy-in” and acceptance
00:22:14 – The wider impact of advocating for yourself
00:23:30 – Was there any resistance and how did you overcome it?
00:26:51 – How did these experiences lead to starting the Unmasked Studio?
00:29:07 – Stu’s theory on why interviews are not great for NDs
00:29:55 – Exploring how Unmask Studio fills the gap in ND recruitment and workplaces
00:32:25 – Complacency and ticking boxes – but there’s a lot of support available
00:33:20 – Closing the gap – what does genuine inclusion look like in practice?
00:34:24 – Exploring basic rights for interviews, asking for the questions beforehand
00:36:00 – A better approach to the recruitment process for NDs
00:37:12 – Unmasked Studio – what’s the future?
00:38:10 – Barriers, broken processes and best way to ask for ‘accommodations’
00:40:00 – Surviving the recruitment process and masking your authentic self
00:43:02 – Where does Unmask Studio get started when working in a business?
00:44:09 – The benefits to the business and measuring the costs to the business
00:47:57 – Performative inclusion vs genuine inclusion
00:48:28 – Neuroinclusion is not just for neurodivergent employees
00:49:55 – Emma’s vision of the future for employment
00:50:47 – Who Emma/Unmasked Studio would like to connect with…
00:52:12 – How to contact Emma at UnmaskedStudio.co.uk and Linked In etc.
00:55:48 – The CRUCIAL final piece of advice for NDs from Emma
00:56:24 – Outro and goodbyes
00:57:35 – LENGTH
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RESOURCES
Contact Emma Beattie – Unmasked Studio
https://www.linkedin.com/company/unmasked-studio-uk-ltd/ Unmasked Studio Linked In Page
https://www.unmaskedstudio.co.uk/
All contact details and more about creating neuroinclusive workplaces
https://businessoddcast.com/the-oddcast-manifesto – Link to the Neuroinclusive Manifesto, Lets build a better, more inclusive society.
https://businessoddcast.com/niq-free-audit target – A Neuroinclusive Workplace self-audit test for employers, teams, and the self-employed. Built on the social model of disability and the idea that barriers are designed in environments, not people.
https://shineradio.uk – Local Radio Petersfield, Bordon & Whitehill and beyond!
https://bigmoosecharity.co – Emergency mental health support, Big Moose provides fast and effective therapy for people who are struggling.
https://businessoddcast.com/help – our range of resources for Neurodiverse business owners, helping you thrive, survive and live more fulfilling lives.
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OUR WEBSITE & CONTACT
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hosts@businessoddcast.com
OUR SOCIALS
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Stuart: Welcome to another business oddcast. Another first for the business odd podcast because today we have a fantastic guest. But we’re going to do a little bit of housekeeping and a little catch up. How are you doing, Hannah?
Hannah: I’m good, thanks Stu. Alive and well on this hot, steamy Friday.
Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. We’ll have forgotten about it by the end of November and we’ll be complaining about how cold it’s got.
Hannah: Crying about the rain.
Stuart: Now, if you’ve not heard, if you’ve not seen a recent podcast, or blogcast, or any of the casts that we might throw out there into the internet, we’ve got the neuroinclusive workplace, and there is an audit that you can take to audit your workplace and see how neuroinclusive it is, and maybe get some ideas on how to improve things for you. And today’s guest is going to take us through a lot of why we have set this up with her own program and her own stuff and why she is doing this. It’s all fantastic. Let’s move along and introduce our fantastic guest. So today, Hannah, we don’t have a topic of the week. What do we have?
Hannah: We don’t have a topic of the week at all. We have something far more exciting. We have our very first guest of the week, Emma Beattie, who is founder of the Unmasked Studios. So Emma has spent nearly two decades working in technology, most recently in customer success before being diagnosed with ADHD around two years ago, I think. Since then, she’s gone from building a neuroinclusive program from scratch inside a global organisation to launching the unmasked studio where she now works with neurodivergent people and employers to help make inclusion actually work in practice. So, there is a lot to unpack there, Emma. So, without further ado, welcome to the business podcast.
Emma Beattie: Thank you so much Hannah.
Stuart: Yeah, thank you Hannah for that thorough introduction. There’s definitely a lot to unpack.
Emma Beattie: So I’ll start at the beginning. So I’ve worked in technology nearly 20 years and most of the roles I’ve had have been customer facing commercial roles. Like you said, more recently customer success. So, quite high pressure roles and I think I’ve always loved helping people and I like meeting new people and building relationships. So I think my career on paper looked quite successful but there were quite a number of hidden struggles that you know I instinctively put down to personal failings. And because of that, you know, the element of people pleasing and trying to fit into a world that rewarded conformity rather than big thinkers and innovators and you know, people who liked to question things.
Stuart: Before we get to the Unmasked Studio, which is your business, could you maybe talk us through your career? So, we just get a little flavour of the backstory so we know a little more about you up to the point of where you were seeking diagnosis because you unpacked some of that there and it just be nice to see what led from the initial idea all the way through to the diagnosis.
Emma Beattie: I’ve kind of noticed or always felt different, certainly in the workplace, and I suffered periods of burnout. There was definitely a pattern developing so I would work on various projects, high profile, things in work and I would just sort of get to the point where I was like, “I just can’t do this anymore”. I just literally had breaking points and there was a pattern of events, but at the same time, I recognized that there were certain things that I could really zero in on. I could really hyperfocus on certain things, especially if they were of real interest to me. But then on the other side, like admin tasks and various things, my brain just can’t do it.
Stuart: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: And it was really quite troubling because I didn’t really have a language for it. And then obviously there was the emotional element and not being able to manage my emotions. Certainly as I got into my late 30s and around this time I think there were a lot more discussions happening. A lot more awareness and people sharing their lived experiences. I suppose I got engrossed and hyperfocused on a lot of that stuff and I started to really um resonate and um and it was around the time where I was really trying to understand who I was because I think the periods of burnout was kind of all related to having a bit of an identity crisis to be honest because I was trying to like you know uh fit in a world and be a certain type of person. that was acceptable. And I got to the point where I was like, “I don’t really know who I am any more”.
Stuart: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: So I did a lot of research and, you know, that kind of sparked a natural curiosity for me to eventually seek a diagnosis.
Hannah: That makes a lot of sense to me. and I kind of went down a similar journey really. So once you had that diagnosis, and the language that went with that. It sounds like you’d already done, you know, that deep dive into all things neurodivergent and you’d kind of seek that diagnosis. And once you had it and a better understanding of all the things around it, what changed for you personally and sort of professionally, how did having that diagnosis influence you going forwards both on personal and professional level?
Emma Beattie: Yeah, I think it wasn’t a natural fix. Although I don’t believe that there was anything to be fixed, I think it helped me develop a much stronger self-awareness in understanding who I was as a person. Like how my brain works. But again, I had to do the hard work. So I had to do the additional research and I had to seek expert advice or speak with ADHD coaches and explain some of my struggles and then develop techniques to kind of adapt, understanding triggers and those kinds of things. And with that self-awareness, I got a lot better at advocating for myself and my needs and advocating in a workplace as well. So, a lot of the support and the backing has come about taking people through my journey of, it sounds really corny, self-discovery. So I’ve always been quite open. I openly disclosed my formal diagnosis and with that I found my openness. And bringing people along on that journey and sharing my lived experience helped other people build their own confidence in sharing.
Stuart: I’ve had a similar response when I talked about my own struggles and my sort of seeking out therapy. Random strangers coming up to you and saying, “Thank you so much.” You acknowledging it helped me understand. And you’re like, I just felt a bit, I don’t know self -conscious saying “I’ve had a bit of a struggle”. It’s like “we all struggle, dear”. You know?
Emma Beattie: Exactly. Like why not normalise it, you know? Like
Stuart: Yes. Absolutely. So, at this point, you got your diagnosis. You were employed in a role and you decided to start a neuroinclusive program within the business.
Emma Beattie: Yeah. And it had nothing to do with my role. Which a lot of people found a bit strange, you know, they didn’t really know where to place me. But yeah, I started to get more involved in the business with the neurodiverse community. Got to know the group and individuals even before I was formally diagnosed. But again, just having that support structure from like-minded individuals that you know, I didn’t have to pretend. We all shared our successes and some of the things that we were really finding like struggling with. So it was a really really safe space where you could genuinely just be your authentic self. So I had that incredible, you know, community and that support around me. On the other side, I had a lot of successful people within the business in other areas of business that were being visibly recognised for doing various things. In contrast, I saw this incredible group of people and a lot of their successes were just hidden away, like no one really acknowledged it. And I’d felt that as well on a personal level, from competing with various women. You know, women in diversity awards processes and things. And being really proud of what I submitted, but when it got to the judging panel, it didn’t tick the right box. So, I always felt like I deserved that recognition.
Stuart: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: And so did other people. So, yeah, that’s what kind of sparked the neurodiversity awards event that I worked on.
Stuart: Just rewind it a second because I’m really interested in honing in on something. So you went into work one day, took a deep breath and pitched the idea. Who did you talk to first and how did that conversation open?
Emma Beattie: Yeah,
Stuart: I’m going to presume you’d been sharing the journey to that point or was it aha?
Emma Beattie: So, I’d got involved in awareness days and those kinds of things. and I’d contributed with some internal podcasts and been quite open and sort of shared my journey. But it was all really internal. There was nothing externally going out. The event idea was me having coffee with a colleague and coming up with this big idea to put on an awards event, you know, focused on neurodiversity. And focus on individual strengths, things that we’re really proud of that perhaps you know people don’t get the opportunity to shout about. So literally it was just a coffee chat. I said wouldn’t it be fantastic to get lots of people together as a celebration of all the amazing things that people have done or that you know that they’re capable of. And I’m very much an opinion of go big or go home.
Stuart: Yeah. No, I love that. I love that idea.
Emma Beattie: So, I was like, right I’m thinking of external guest speakers. I’m thinking of charities. I’m thinking of customers. So, I’m going off on quite a big tangent. You know, this is like turning into a red carpet event.
Stuart: why not? Why not?
Emma Beattie: Well, that’s why I was like, well, this is the first time that the company actually, you know, put together. And I don’t really remember asking for much permission. I just went ahead with it and,I mean, I had certain elements of structure. So obviously HR were aware they have their ESG and they at the time had a neurodiversity UK director and there was the policy or like the framework internally. So in a way I didn’t really need permission because this was something that you know the company would showcase to the world that we have this ESG program and it has several different pillars. So, I knew I wasn’t really doing anything wrong, but I think people really expect the impact and what happened after the event.
Stuart: Right? And what was the impact? How was it accepted or how was it responded to?
Emma Beattie: So, there was lots of excitement. Like lots of people, just you know the sort of the human element. People were really embracing it and really celebrating and being open about it, you know. I had so many people come up to me and sort of share stories about family members and you know and things like that and it was really really touching and you know it sort of led to more interest.
Stuart: It did exactly what you had hoped and planned for it to do . It gave a platform and a showcase to the neurodivergent community especially within the business.
Emma Beattie: Absolutely. And it led to other high-profile events focusing on supporting neurodivergent job seekers. And we had an event at the Shard. Then again I wanted to go big and do an event at the House of Commons which was incredible. It was just really nice to have an open platform where people didn’t have to pretend and they didn’t have to mask to be accepted.
Stuart: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: So yeah, so it was really touching, but also there was a commercial angle as well. And I suppose that kind of helped how I got support like with it internally within business. I always phrased it as there’s a business reason why we should be focusing on this particular theme.
Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely love that because Well, I’m the tangent queen. So, here’s the first tangent I’m going to introduce.
Stuart: Oh, I’m excited.
Hannah: Um, what I was going to say is I wondered when I’ve spoken to other people in the sort of neurodivergence and your inclusive space, there’s always or more often than not a common thread. Hesitation from people, and I felt it myself. Hesitation for people to out, for the want of a better word,themselves or out their neurotype. Did you come up against anybody kind of like “I love the idea but I just want to pretend to be masky Dave or whatever it is”.
Emma Beattie: yeah
Hannah: What did that look like?
Emma Beattie: Celebration at first because I think you know from a company perspective it’s um great optics and I know that sounds really cynical but it’s..
Hannah: But that’s where it starts. That’s where it starts. [17]
Emma Beattie: Yeah, that’s where it starts. And I think there’s safety in just sticking to the same old things that you know is considered appropriate in terms of doing awareness days and certain months of the year. You pick a theme and then someone puts on an event and I was always a bit like I thought it was great, but I was always a bit “oh I’m a bit disappointed. Why do we have to have one awareness day or why are we even having awareness days? It just didn’t make any sense to me coz I’m thinking surely we’ve moved on from raising awareness on these diversity topics. What happens next?
Stuart: Yes. Well next comes rights and responsibilities and laws and statutes accountability.
Emma Beattie: Okay. Yeah. Exactly. All of that.
Stuart: But yeah, you’re right. It starts somewhere. But just repeating it every year
Emma Beattie: And that’s why I think I was always expecting something else to happen and I went through the right process. I had an external workplace assessment. So you know like any employer is allowed to ask for occupational health assessment. So I had one based on ADHD and I received a report which again was shared with my employer at the time and basically systematically went through the list of accommodations and I thought “okay that that would be useful, you know, that would help with more of the sort of day-to-day things. And then there was a section on communication and how I could receive feedback or criticism
Hannah: Um None!
Stuart: Just none. Yeah.
Hannah: Under a weighted blanket in a dark room.
Stuart: There’s lots of fidget toys.
Hannah: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: You know, there were some of the things in the report that I could do myself.
Stuart: right?
Emma Beattie: You know, I could get noise, I could get loop ear plugs. You know, I could get that. But there were certain elements that I needed collaboration with like line managers and I needed them to be on side.
Stuart: It’s always a really tricky thing to navigate because with a hidden disability no one really understands how certain things trigger a person with ADHD or autism but I kind of got to the point where you know it’s probably an age thing as well where you just think do you know what like I don’t care if I’m going to upset someone. Like they can’t treat me that way. Um so with that kind of maturity as standing up for myself and you know not taking it any more I’ve had to say, do you know what? You can’t really say that to me because, you know, having to explain RSD to someone, so rejection sensitivity dysphoria, and them not really understanding that it can cause a physical painful reaction. And depending where your energy and your mood and many other contextual cues can trigger a meltdown, it can just derail your entire day.
Emma Beattie: Yeah. But the big issue that I’ve come across is that you spend a lot of time explaining yourself, and again you’re not asking for special treatment. You’re just asking for a slightly different approach. Sometimes like communication. Ultimately it requires managers being proactive and actually doing some training on it.
Hannah: Yeah.
Stuart: Um, good luck.
Emma Beattie: Because it becomes really exhausting when it’s like your full-time job to to be advocating for yourself all the time and you think, I just want to do my best work.
Stuart: Yeah. We did a training video for Signal and for the neuroinclusive workplace and in it I said, you know, the thing is just because somebody has a disability doesn’t make them a campaigner for it. You might meet them on a really bad day and then you get them to give you some training. It’s like great thanks on top of everything else today I’ve got to tell you.
Emma Beattie: Yeah. It’s silly though because some of the adaptations benefit other people. Yeah. Just like the way people give feedback and adding context and explaining the reason why there’s a correction it’s just just basic good communication.
Hannah: I think sometimes, I’ve seen it myself and I’ve heard about it too, when you’re the person that’s got the gumption to be like “hang on a moment this is a problem” it’s like there’s a big crowd behind you that are “thank goodness Emma’s talking”. But also oh shit we just need to use her as a human shield and now she’s going to be the poster girl for being a little bit outspoken. But she is also helping people and, kind of like Stuart said, if one person has the guts, the gumption, whatever it is to just actually advocate for themselves thank goodness by default they are advocating for others in their community. Which is incredible and actually what you have done so far and are continuing to do is that kind of permission to like-minded people to everybody really to advocate for yourself and the things that you believe in. Because it’s really vital both in companies and just in society really. You touched on the fact that obviously you needed managers, people in decision making positions to be on board and I’m guessing like all this stuff that you would have come up no doubt against some sort of skepticism or a bit of push back. What did you… I mean you’ve touched on it already a bit to some degree to say you just kind of kept advocating. Which is sometimes it’s just keep marching through the trenches regardless of people trying to grab you by the ankles and pull you back. But did you come up against any of that kind of stuff and what did you do to overcome it?
Emma Beattie: Um yeah, I think there were times where I had to bite my tongue. I had to swallow it and I’m not going to lie. You do have to play the game sometimes. You do have to, you know no matter how hard it is sometimes, I think you do need to stay within your lane. But that’s just in a work setting, you know. Like there’s other ways that you can channel some of what you’re really passionate about. I for one I mean, we haven’t talked about my business yet but…
Stuart: No, we’re teeing it up. We’re teasing people.
Emma Beattie: Yeah, but I think once you once you find your strengths and you know what you’re really passionate about. Even better if you can find what your purpose is. I think you know no workplace can take that away from you. You know, you’re an individual. I mean, yes, you have to do your job and some situations where unfortunately you are alone in the sense that you have to make your own accommodations.
Stuart: The entire kind of driving force behind the podcast is you’ve got to learn the red rope and you’ve got to learn the word no. And those two things absolutely saved my life and I say that without hyperbole. That is literally how I regain control of my life by saying to people no. And there’s the red rope.
Emma Beattie: You do have to set healthy boundaries and that’s partly why I started to speak up and advocate because I was being subjected to all this really unfair treatment and because I didn’t really understand that my brain just worked differently. I wasn’t able to sort of step in and I didn’t address it and that’s why it led to so many patterns of burnout. And just, you know, that lack of support or lack of awareness. So because I have that awareness if what another person is doing is going to be affecting me I will speak up. I will say you know can we work this a little bit differently, can we try this? This isn’t working for me? And sometimes you get met with “why are you trying to tell me to do my own job” kind of thing. There is that friction.
Stuart: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: But I think you owe it to yourself and your mental health to give your own feedback if something isn’t working
Hannah: Given everything you’ve just told us, which is incredible…sorry, I’m being a bit of a fan girl at this point. So, how did everything that you’ve done to date with all of the events and really finding your voice within the company. How did it eventually connect or tee up to the decision really to create the unmarked studio which we’ve touched on your business?
Emma Beattie: Yeah, my exciting new venture. So, my brain likes to connect things. I like to connect dots, you know, I’m quite observant to spotting patterns and I kept seeing the same gap over and over. You know, I was aware of all these fantastic neurodiversity charities and connected organisations and ADHD coaches and I’ve had my own ADHD coach. And then likewise, I was really building relationships with a lot of neurodivergent individuals who were out of work that had gone to university and they have had jobs in the past, but they’d also suffered a series of burnout. And some of them were late diagnosed and I really started to see a real sort of gap in the system in terms of employment pathways. You know, it just kind of got individuals so far and then it was “right, you’re just on your own”. And then I also saw the side of the standard approach or like the fair approach when it came to hiring new people and the interview process and having the standard set of questions and it just wasn’t as accessible.
Hannah: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: For someone going for an interview and I’ve hated going for interviews because I just don’t think it’s really a very natural reflection. Answering a series of questions like on the spot,you know, how does that give any indication of how that person’s going to do the job? [
Stuart: See, I’ve got this theory. I believe an interview is a fairly adversarial enterprise because it’s like, “Tell me about yourself. What about this?” You know, it’s very inquisitive. It’s like a police interview. It’s very invasive. And I’ve got this concept and the more I think about it, the more it kind of plays out that the neurotypicals…they like adversarial. They like a dual. They like backwards and forwards. Whereas the neurodivergent community prefers a dance. We like compatibility. We like to find common ground. We like to make sure that the vibe and the mood of people is set right before we, you know, let’s all join into this enterprise.
Emma Beattie: Yeah. So it started, The Unmasked Studio, started by picking up on quite an important..so the business itself is quite niche. That’s some of the feedback that I’ve had.
But for me it made complete sense to be the company that kind of bridges the gap. So working with incredible neurodivergent individuals felt like coaching them, helping them build their confidence, really uncover their strengths, because a lot of the times they don’t know what they are which is really sad.
Stuart: absolutely. Well, when you spend a lot of your time masking and just getting by in a workplace without having any time or energy to think about, “oh, how do I improve myself?”
Emma Beattie: Yeah, it can be tough. And I think that a lot of the work that’s being spent now in terms of awareness and it’s about changing the narrative because a lot of the historic talk around neurodiversity has been very deficit focused and very negative. So because of that I think people have seen a lot of their challenges as personal failings and no one’s ever actually said “do you know what, you’re absolutely awesome at this. Like you know pattern recognition or relationship building, and those things are so important”. So so important. You still have to have an understanding of what your challenges are.
Hannah: Yeah.]
Emma Beattie: Because then you can adapt certain environments, maybe surround yourself by other different types of people. So Unmasked Studio is half focused on the individuals. The other half is working with employers as well. So employers that specifically want to move past the awareness days that actually want to build truly inclusive working environments.
Hannah: Excellent. I love that. Do you find many of those, Emma? Do you have to hunt them?
Emma Beattie: Yeah. I’ve been pleasantly surprised by a few. So it’s Yeah, it’s definitely going in the right direction, but I think there is a lot of complacency. There’s a lot of holding a badge and thinking that that’s them done. You know, there’s a lot of like box ticking and again I think it’s important. Again, this is the injustice sensitivity. You know, there’s an economical incentive for businesses to really do this properly. There’s so much like funding and support available. It’s just up to businesses to really take action and then when they do, the reality is that they won’t just be helping neurodivergent individuals. They’ll be helping everyone else in the company.
Stuart: Well, that’s it. That’s because we’re human. We’re humankind. So, why aren’t we just kind to humans regardless of what neurotype like you touched on?
Emma Beattie: Yeah.
Hannah: From your perspective, what you’re talking about is this gap and helping the individual and the business sort of close it a little more? So, what does that genuine inclusion look like in practice? Can you perhaps give us some examples of certain things you look out for or try to help and assist on both sides of that equation?
Emma Beattie: Like I said, we support neurodivergent individuals. We also work with the employers as well. Um, so like our work doesn’t stop when someone’s hired.
Stuart: right
Emma Beattie: We actively want to help that individual and the employer. So like the hiring manager or even before that during the interview process, you know, not having the same recruitment procedure because it’s seemingly seen as fair. Because I don’t think it’s anything to do about equality. It’s more equity that they should be thinking about.
Hannah: Yes.
Emma Beattie: Um you know, what are the adjustments? It’s something really really basic like not many people know that they can ask for the interview questions in advance. Wouldn’t that be amazing?
Hannah: And no one likes a surprise. [36]
Emma Beattie: But people can actually ask. If a prospective employer denied that right, that you have, it would be a bit of a red flag, wouldn’t it?
Stuart: Oh, immediately. Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah: Yeah. I remember being in an interview once and they said, “If you were a chocolate bar, what would you be?” And my autistic brain went, “I’m not a chocolate bar. I’m a human.” Next! Like I couldn’t be chocolate. made out of skin. What!?
Stuart: My answer would be eaten. If I was a chocolate bar, what would I be? I’d be eaten. I’d eaten myself.
Emma Beattie: Yeah. No more a rapper. Yeah, but it’s just like what does that question answer even give them? It just doesn’t make any sense?
Hannah: It’s utter rubbish and it’s literally Sorry to interrupt you, Emma. It’s just there to see how you react under pressure, which is a terrible place for everybody to be. But certainly for a neurodivergent person, it doesn’t separate the wheat from the chaff. It just puts a lot of neurodivergent people into total what? Where am I? Shut down. And then they go, “oh, they can’t think on their feet”. No, I really can. I’m brilliant at thinking on my feet. But you’ve just switched my brain off with some strange tangent that makes no sense to me.
Emma Beattie: Exactly. And they’re not giving people the fair opportunity. In my mind, if you were to give a new candidate a problem to solve, give them a challenge, you know, give them a brief like a well written brief with no ambiguity and then invite them to share how they would go about that particular challenge or what new solution they would come up with, because that is what employers want to see. That is an individual bringing value back to the business. not the series of questions about what chocolate bar you would be rubbish.
Hannah: it’s utter rubbish it literally is unless unless you’re working in a job where you know let’s say was it your job at Cadburys… hang on a minute. It wasn’t in my Cadburys interview. Yeah I worked for Cadburys for years and that would have been more understandable. But unless you’re working in a situation where life or death, you know what does this person do under pressure. I was literally a rep in this job interview. I’m like, does it matter? Is anyone going to die if Hannah doesn’t put the right shelf up? Like, no, idiots. It’s so annoying.
Stuart: So, where do you see Unmasked masked studio going? What’s the future? What’s the bigger vision?
Emma Beattie: So, I think yeah, bigger bigger vision. Ideally, a world where neurodivergent people don’t have to choose between being authentic and being successful. I think that that would be incredible. And really that’s why I started Unmasked Studio. I was seeing, and I have candidates that are already incredible. But because of certain expectations, their self-esteem has been affected. They are repeatedly getting invited along to interviews but they’re struggling. So I’m like “well then we need to fix where that barrier is”. So that’s what the business will be continuing to help fix. Because I don’t actually think it’s anything to do with the people. It’s the process. It’s the barriers that people face. It’s nothing to do with the individuals
Stuart: When the process is broken and it doesn’t serve the humans that are dealing with it. my brain just goes into free fall. My engineering head just goes, “we could solve this”. This is not beyond the wit of man. If we can put somebody on the moon and put an international space station above us, surely we can solve some of these very simple, even to the point where I want to stop using the word, accommodations. Oh, you’re doing me a favour, are you? Oh, thank you. Surely it should be a customisation of my work working environment so that you get the most out of me.
Emma Beattie: Well, yeah, that’s it. And that’s what I say to some of my candidates. It’s risky disclosing. It’s obviously very challenging sometimes to actually speak up and say you know I need these certain accommodations. But if you reframe it in the way the business understands, as in “if you can support me in this manner then that means I can bring my best self to work and it’s a performance improvement and you’re getting more out of me”. Not just, say, talking around the struggles but actually bringing it back to the business. And I think that’s why my experience, my lived experience working in corporate, always brings it back to the business. Like what benefits the business.
Stuart: yeah
Emma Beattie: Again, once you know the rules then I think it’s easy.
Hannah: Also, what you’re doing, especially with the focus on the recruitment process, So from day one you’re saying.. because I’m sure both of you have too, undoubtedly. I’ve done jobs where I showed up for the interview like corporate Hannah, and then I masked for about five years like, no worries, I’m on it, like corporate Hannah in a dodgy ‘ 90s suit. That is not sustainable. And I did a very good job coz I was young, I had a lot more energy, and I masked, you know, whatever it was, eight hours a day for a long time. But that takes its toll. Actually, what you’re doing and the work that you’re doing and the work that we’re doing means turn up day one as yourself from that point onwards and yeah, okay, I’m going to hide my stims in an office environment because people are undoubtedly going to file me under crazy if they saw them. But actually turn up from day one, not have this ridiculous interview process where you’re faking to be somebody else. Coz once you’ve done that, it’s like going on a date and sucking your belly in for the whole time. From that point onwards, you’re like, they now think I’m thin. I’m doomed for the rest of my life with this person. Bit of a tangent. Sorry. But do you see what I’m saying? Turning up as your authentic self and then actually being able to, that’s how we sustain that energy.
Emma Beattie: Absolutely. You just got you just cut through all the nonsense from the very beginning. Unmasked Studio does partner with recruitment companies to complement what the recruitment companies do. They’re focused on volume placing people in positions and then they move on to the next and that’s usually the business model to me that doesn’t necessarily make any sense. Because an employer’s hired someone. Yes they have all the notes and everything like during the interview, even if that person is neurodivergent they’re not necessarily going to feel comfortable in being able to ask for the support so early on. And that’s why Unmasked Studio would be there just to ensure, not to disclose anything because that’s up to the candidate. That’s up to them. But we want to ensure that that person has the best onboarding experience and that the hiring manager really gets it. Like even if they’re got some level of understanding, but it’s the business benefit.
Stuart: Yeah. Business benefit and also the individual benefit as well. Not allowing someone just to pretend to to mask..well, they’re going to pay for that down the line.
Emma Beattie: Well, that’s it. Yeah. Exactly. So, it’s just it’s just counterintuitive to just wait until someone’s at crisis point. Just tackle it from the very beginning.
Stuart: Yeah. Absolutely. Before you have a mental health crisis. So if Emma was given a magic wand and put into a business and could wave that magic wand and make any changes whatsoever and be supported by the board or whoever, where would you start? What would be your first conversations? How would you go about that?
Emma Beattie: So some of the services that we offer in my Unmasked Studio are speaking opportunities. So a fireside chat, panel discussion, And that’s really what the business is looking for at the moment. And it’s usually the first place that employers start with. That’s in terms of raising awareness internally like having open conversation. And then there’s hopefully there’s other steps that they can take after looking at what they’re really willing to be accountable for. And and how they promote that out externally to the world as well, because I think that they benefit so much from a differentiator like in the market. To say “okay, yes, we have our disability confident badge, but these are all the other things that we do and we hold ourselves accountable for these various things”. So, I think I would love to see more businesses sharing with the world what they are actually doing.
Stuart: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: Like what are they actually doing? You know, like lots of people can have a disability confidence badge or sign up to various things but I haven’t really seen many businesses that actually detail the commitments and the steps that they’re taking. that actually changes people’s day-to-day experience.
Stuart: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: And I would love to see more businesses do that.
Stuart: That was one of the main drivers actually and main thinking points behind our audit, Is like you can’t be from my world, my engineering world, my web development world, you can’t make any changes until you know where you are. Otherwise, you’re just plucking random ideas. So if we got some data points about how attitudes, thoughts, learning, education and understanding in businesses actually is, you’ve got a better chance of going “that’s where we need to apply the change.
Emma Beattie: Exactly. And I think again for me and like my background in customer success is all around the metrics in terms of “what is your baseline?” So a company’s baseline could be “what is your retention rate?” and looking at the sort of mental health side of things, “how many of your employers are signed off for stress”.
Stuart: It’s a great metric though, you know, how many days have you lost to mental health issues or stress
Emma Beattie: Or people leaving because again that has a cost associated with the business. You know, some businesses pay the recruitment fee and then you have maybe some training cost associated. So if that individual has a poor experience, why is it up to the individual? I mean it’s going to cost the business anyway, you might as well address what may happen in the future head on.
Hannah: Absolutely. I was reading something the other day and it said the younger generations are not viewing this stuff as a nice to have.
Stuart: No, it isn’t.
Hannah: I worked on a ESG project years ago for quite some time and the amount of what they called ‘greenwashing’. People were like “I’ve planted some trees… next”. And you were like, no, no, no. That’s not being eco-friendly. That’s just pretending. And we don’t want this to become something that companies reluctantly find a way to look like they’re doing it.
Emma Beattie: Yeah.
Hannah: We want companies to fully understand the benefits and sadly often that is a bottom line return on investment thing for them. Which is disappointing from a personal point of view, but actually if it gets it moving in the right direction that’s great. Um but yeah we don’t want people pretending to look after our spicy brains.
Emma Beattie: So that’s the difference between performative inclusion and genuine inclusion. You know performative is doing things you know like posting things on social media because it makes the company look good. But real inclusion is “how do the changes actually benefit individuals like day-to-day?”. If you make those changes it doesn’t just mean businesses should stop treating inclusion like it is just something for neurodivergent people.
Stuart: Yes. That’s the point. It’s this accommodation malarkey can be applied to anybody. It doesn’t have to be somebody with a condition, a diagnosis or a disability.
Emma Beattie: Exactly.. And that is the ridiculous thing, that some of these accommodations don’t cost a huge amount either.
Hannah: No, they really don’t.
Emma Beattie: No. So, I think what I’d like to see in the future is that we don’t really have to say like or justify why you’re asking for certain things.
Hannah: Yeah.
Emma Beattie: You almost have to prove that you’re that broken to get someone to sort of really take you seriously. And it shouldn’t be like that. It should just be taking in a business concept or construct less about HR.
Stuart: Yeah.
Hannah: And a nice to have.
Stuart: Yes. Oh, let’s make a tick box exercise. Hands up if you’re a neurodivergent who needs accommodation and therefore needs to find a new job. Oh, you got me. I didn’t hear the last bit until you said I was so keen and eager.
Emma Beattie: Yeah. Yeah. But what I’d like to see is less nervousness about people actually coming forward and saying I need these things, without feeling like they’re asking for special treatment. Because they’re not.
Stuart: No
Emma Beattie: It’s nothing to do with that. And Hannah, you mentioned the younger generation that are coming through and the fact that they’ve grown up with a lot more awareness and a lot of them have been early diagnosed so have that greater understanding. And I think the fear is that the working world hasn’t quite caught up and there’s going to be certain expectations of the younger generation. I think there’s going to be a bigger problem than there already is now.
Hannah: You mentioned collaborators but as a result of this conversation who would you most like to hear from or connect with? You know you mentioned collaborators but potential clients or investors or people who are listening now. Who would you like to hear from?
Emma Beattie: I would like to hear from more employers. I now feel really confident that I’ll be able to give their company a bit more guidance and a starting point. Because I think that the problem is they’re very comfortable doing the awareness days, but then what happens after? So, that’s where Unmasked Studio steps in. So, I’m keen to speak with employers, could be disability, confident badged, but actually want to build out a truly inclusive working environment. And like I said, a lot of businesses, the first step is a buyer chat type panel discussion to build that psychological safe environment. I think a lot of employees really need right now.
Stuart: 100%.
Hannah: Absolutely.
Stuart: Emma, if somebody wanted to get hold of you, wanted to get in touch with you, where would they go? What would they do? How do they get in touch? What’s their first step if they’ve heard this and thought to themselves, let’s get Unmasked Studio in and sort out our diversity and and neuroinclusivity program?
Emma Beattie: So they can head to my website www.unmaskedstudio.co.uk. Or they can obviously, there’s a contact form etc. People can connect with me as an individual on LinkedIn. I also have a company LinkedIn page as well.
Stuart: We’ll put all the links.
Emma Beattie: Yeah, put all the links and things, but I put them together so Unmasked Studio has newsletters as well that we post out, some of which are saved on the website. So, people are very welcome to download those. The topics are usually things that have kind of caught my eye or like you know industry kind of insights, thought leadership type approach. Again, working in the corporate world I’ve had access to a lot of good material.
Stuart: Very diplomatic.
Emma Beattie: Yeah, it’s been really useful. Really useful for paying off all that trauma. But I think the element of the thought leadership side is a very important part of everyone’s learning and understanding. I think that’s what we’ve done. It is more around actually making a concerted effort to understand and adapt.
Stuart: Yes. Just putting a you know autism awareness month banner up on your website. What does that change? It doesn’t unless you’re actually activating knowledge and pathways and changing them. You know it’s another nice to have sticker that, like you say, is there anything supporting that badge. It’s been lovely to talk to you today. It’s fascinating to find out that there are other people out there banging the drum about neuroinclusion and doing something about it and having your experience and focus on that. I’m sure we’ll talk again. I’m sure we may even have you back again as a guest. It’s been fantastic to learn about what Unmasked Studio does. Um Hannah, have you got any final comments? Final words?
Hannah: Final comments. No, we’ve covered so much. I just think you’re perfectly placed to do this work. You’ve got so much experience and you’re living it, too. And it’s brilliant. It excites me, this stuff. It really does. It’s such an important change that needs to happen. And I get full of joy when I see people actively doing it. There’s not enough of us yet.
Stuart: But there will be somewhere. We’re building the army.
Hannah: We are, aren’t we? building the odd squad.
Emma Beattie: No, I love it. I love it. And again, I’d to just like to say thank you so much for your encouragement and I suppose like you my confidence building came from meeting like-minded individuals and that’s probably the last thing last piece of advice I would leave your listeners with. Find your people.
Stuart: Oh yes.
Hannah: Yeah
Stuart: Find your people. Find your. Get a t-shirt made with, you know.
Emma Beattie: I love that.
Stuart: Find your people. Find your tribe. I’ll think of something.
Hannah: Find your tribe.
Stuart: That’s what I used to do for many, many years. It was all merch and slogans and mug mugs, mouse mats, and socks. If you want a slogan on a mug, a mouse mat or a sock, come and have a word.
Emma Beattie: Hey, I could have a little web shop on my website, Stu.
Stuart: Oh, yes.
Hannah: Love it.
Stuart: Fantastic to have you, Emma. Thank you so much. Um, any of the listeners listening all of the details will be in all the various places below next to or on the website. And thanks for listening to another well the first groundbreaking Business Oddcast with our first guest. And don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe. If you liked anything you’ve heard or you’ve got any questions fire them through to Hannah and I at hosts@businessodcast.com. Hannah, any final words before we say goodbye and play the outro?
Hannah: Just a huge thank you, Emma, for coming on and being the most magnificent first guest on the Business Oddcast. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you.
Stuart: Yes, same here. Brilliant. And if there’s any help that we can provide or you’ve got any questions for us, you know, do stay in touch. Thanks very much everyone for listening and uh we’ll see you next time. Goodbye.