Welcome to Episode 7 of the Business Oddcast where we ask the big one: do you disclose your neurodivergence at work—or keep the mask on?
In this episode we unpack masking vs authenticity, why disclosure is as much about other people’s reactions as our own, and how stigma, stereotypes and “superpower” myths muddy the waters. We talk filters (attract your tribe, repel the wrong fits), professionalism vs prejudice, and the personal toll of camouflaging.
We get into some lived experiences around the topics of bullying, building “internal armour,” and the heavy toll of veiling, masking and camouflaging who we are.
Together we’ll explore these topics and the myriad associated complications and ask a few questions about what a truly Neurodiverse economy could look like; more creative, more sustainable, and more inclusive?
We explore a “neurodiverse economy”: why so many ND folks struggle in traditional jobs, how specialism beats generalism, and why self-employment can be a humane energy-management strategy (buffers, boundaries, realistic deadlines, and choosing clients who “get it”). Expect PDA vs deadlines, hyperfocus, and the “10th dentist” theory of divergent thinking.
We get into all of that and much more, all with a smile and acknoweldgement that the struggle is very real.
ISSUES COVERED IN THIS EPISODE:
- What “masking” looks like in business and life
- Building armour vs. being authentically yourself
- The toll of masking and the fear of unmasking
- Why 80% of NDs are unemployed
- What does a Neurodiverse economy look like and could it change everything
- Stereotypes we need to challenge
- Tips for baby steps toward unmasking
- Finding “your people,” and building a sustainable lifestyle
If you’ve ever wondered whether to hide or reveal your ND identity, this episode is for you. We discuss talk stereotypes, famous ND success stories, AND the baby steps you can take if you’re thinking of unmasking yourself.
Sit back, reflect, and tell us your veil/unveil stories. Share this with someone who needs to meet their people. This is one episode you won’t want to miss.
Like, share, subscribe—and join the newsletter at businessodcast.com for resources and episode drops.
TIMELINE
00:00:00 – Introduction to Ep07
00:00:27 – Hannah’s week – fashion, self-care, chocolate
00:04:27 – Google – Ted Danson “blackface”
00:05:00 – Topic of the Week: To Unveil or Not to Unveil, That is THE Question
00:05:20 – Unmasking in business…
00:07:15 – Being who you are, used as a filter for business
00:07:50 – Bullying – Stu’s experience and attitude
00:09:02 – Building the “internal armour”
00:09:36 – Building the mask and trying to pass, or not
00:10:31 – Zebras and Horses…
00:11:15 – Your personal choice to veil or unveil in business
00:11:46 – Introducing the idea: What would a NeuroDiverse economy look like?
00:13:23 – Why 80% of NDs are unemployed
00:14:42 – A NeuroDiverse economy is a more creative economy
00:15:55 – How self-employment can help NDs manage energy & contribute to the economy
00:18:04 – Hannah’s AuDHD – loving the rules, but HATING the rules…
00:18:30 – Stereotypes fuelling exclusion, Rainman and Superpowers
00:20:11 – Famous people saying ND being central to their success
00:21:23 – Depressing stats about ND business founders and descrimination
00:22:02 – The personal toll of veiling and the fear of unmasking
00:24:00 – Fearing the reaction to your revelation & finding “your people”.
00:25:06 – Baby steps to unmasking
00:26:00 – Attitudes to NDs and the news your “different” and reactions
00:27:09 – Weaponised rudeness and standing up for yourself
00:28:46 – Darwinian evolution and our place in it; Stu’s theory
00:31:08 – NDs real value, simple accomodations and adding to the economy
00:34:19 – How the younger generation of NDs are connecting and socialising
00:35:51 – Societal attitudes, “perceived” stigma, then and now
00:37:01 – Benefits of working as self-employed with other NDs
00:38:48 – Why this podcast? Creating a community of self-employed NDs
00:39:57 – It’s not about being a millionaire, it’s about lifestyle
00:43:20 – The choice; to veil or unveil? Some final thoughts
00:45:21 – Get in touch – sign up for the newsletter & resources
00:46:31 – LIKE, SHARE AND SUBSCRIBE!
00:48:32 – Homework
STAY IN TOUCH
Don’t forget to Like, Share and Subscribe and join the OddSquad, sign up for our weekly newsletter and get our resources all for free!
Our homepage businessoddcast.com and sign up for our newsletter, we will ask for your email address but we will NEVER sell that to any 3rd party.
The we will share links to resources and remind you of new episodes, which if your Executive Dysfunction is like ours, will be a useful weekly reminder! Lists and alarms for DAYS! We will also be sharing any useful info, or coping strategies as guides, so you can access hints and tips in handy reference form.
RESOURCES
Read our accompanying blog post on this topic here: https://businessoddcast.com/to-unveil-or-not-to-unveil-that-is-the-question/
Emergency mental health support for FREE – Bigmoosecharity.co
If this topic resonates perhaps you might want to look into the subject a little more. Use these tests to have a clearer understanding of your own neurotype profile. https://embrace-autism.com/autism-tests
Content 100% created by humans, formatted by humans
Stuart: The Business Oddcast — and welcome again to the Business Oddcast. I think this is episode number seven. Are we on seven? Amazing — on seven. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m losing count. It’s good. We’re on a roll. Um… Hello, I am your host, **Stuart Morrison**, and this is my inimitable co-host and fabulous sidekick, Hannah.
Hannah: Fantastic. Fantastic… Hannah — Hannah Logan.
Stuart: What have you been up to this week? I see you are in fabulous green. Does that have any reflection — have you been doing sustainability?
Hannah: Um, no. I really wanted to say something really impressive there — “Yeah, I’ve been…” No. I haven’t wandered a forest. I just like green. It’s a fabulous, it’s a fabulous color. I tend to go between black and then really bright colors. There’s nothing in the middle — who’d have thought that of a neurodiverse person? Yeah — I’m literally like funeral mode or party.
Stuart:There’s no just mingling in the normal life. No. I don’t tend to shop anywhere where “normal” is on the menu. So, you know, If I like something, I like something. I don’t care what you should be wearing this season. Mind your own fucking business. This season I’m handing out free broken noses for people who are thinking of telling me what to think. Come here. Don’t make me chase you — because then I’ll be out of breath and it’ll be twice as bad. So, have you had a good week? Have you been doing stuff? How has the wipeout, burnout and recovery been? How has it been?
Hannah: Um, yeah, not too bad. Not too bad. I’m kind of overwhelmed — but I’m managing. I am managing. I’ve certainly moved into a period of my life where I’m being a lot more self-carey. Although when I hear the word “self-care,” I want to punch a yoga person in the face — which is a bit harsh really — but actually it (although I’m joking) is incredibly important. And I’m trying to up that — turn up the self-care. Sometimes it involves chocolate. Other times it involves a dark room and meditation.
Stuart: That’s as valid as anything. You give yourself what you need to at any time.
Hannah: Yeah — feeding the soul.
Stuart: Mine was a little bit chocolate earlier. Nice. I’ve been trying to be a good boy because I’m not doing the running at the moment. So I’m trying to stay, you know, relatively healthy with the food, so I don’t pile on a load of pounds. And, uh, but this morning I was just like, I am going to literally kill someone if I don’t eat it — I’m just gnawing the table. So I just had a bit of chocolate. It’s worked marvellously well. A bit of chocolate. Feed the soul with a bit of chocolate.
Hannah: Absolutely. A little bit of Fruit & Nut is my go-to.
Stuart: Ah, Fruit & Nut is the king.
Hannah: My husband’s a Hazelnut Cadbury’s man. And that — I’m not going to lie — I loved him a tiny bit less when he told me that. You know, the Whole Nut one. I was like, “Oh, can I properly invest my love into somebody that doesn’t need the raisins?” It’s difficult. I definitely loved him a tiny bit less.
Stuart: Oh no, here you go, here you go — I’m going to just wean him onto Fruit & Nut. And then, yeah…My love — I’m going to get some chocolate peanuts and press them into the top.
And now, every Hazelnut bar comes with, like, chocolate peanuts pressed — I call it pebble dashing.
Hannah: My brain hates chocolate peanuts because I’m like, peanuts are savoury, but then you put the chocolate on and I can’t get it. I can’t get it. My brain’s “no, no.”
Stuart: But that’s the nut in the Fruit & Nut…
Hannah: Isn’t it hazelnuts? Is it peanuts? Oh, now I’m really discombobulated. Everyone’s a fruit and nut case — that will be my hyper-focus for this afternoon.
Stuart:That’s a very, very old advertising campaign — just shows that pre-mobile phones, pre-… I would sing it, but it was, yeah. Frank Muir — don’t Google Frank Muir. No. I tell you what, if you want a gift that keeps on giving, here’s one: Ted Danson — blackface. So many years ago, he was going out with Whoopi Goldberg. They did a roast for Whoopi Goldberg and she insisted that Ted Danson, as the host, dressed in blackface. I’m telling you, it’s better than you can even think. Save it for after — “Ted Danson blackface.” Share it with your friends. Oh my gosh, it’s hilarious. Anyway, before we step on into other controversies, what is the topic of the week?
Hannah: So this topic is — I think it’s a particularly magnificent one (although all of them are magnificent, obviously, otherwise we wouldn’t do them). The big question: ‘to veil or unveil’ when it comes to your neuro-spiciness — that is the question. Are you going around pretending you’re not — even some kind of denial? Or are you just out there full-on wearing the T-shirt — “Bring it on, I’m spicy”?
Stuart: In business as well — let’s remind all of you that are listening or watching — this is about in business. So we’re not suggesting you’re kind of hiding away in a pretending-to-not-be-spicy world… but yeah, in business — that’s a tough one.
Hannah: It is a tough one.
Stuart: For me, it depends. But I have a lot of friends over the years — gay friends — and they have the concept of the closet, and generally you don’t out someone. It’s kind of a little bit like that. Do you out yourself? Do you… I mean, I don’t think I’m in any kind of closet. I don’t think anyone has any illusion — “Is Stuart a bit odd, a bit different, weird?” Yes. Yes he is.
Hannah: Could you be neurodiverse, do you think?
Stuart: I’m thinking about it. Have a deep dive on that. So some of us are just like, “Bring it on, I don’t care, I really don’t.” And again, in the gay community I’ve seen that — “I am just me. I’m just me — you accept it or you don’t, but I don’t care.” But I understand the need to decide who you reveal that to, especially when you’re not necessarily comfortable with it yourself and you’re yet to come to terms with it all. So for me, I just don’t have any option but to be who I am. Yeah, I almost revel in the fact that I am repelling people.How terrible does that sound? Actively giving it out to repel people. “You’re going to force me to repel you.” See — it’s a filter. It’s just a filter. If you aren’t going to get on with it at all, it’s better you know early. And that’s kind of my attitude and it’s one… well, it was literally beaten into me with all the bullying, with all the othering, with all the outcasting and shaming. I just was like, I don’t really… your mistake is thinking that I need you to like me. That would be based on your own need to be liked. So all you’re telling me is you are a needy person that needs to be given attention, and the way you get that attention is by abusing me. So I’m not even going to bother. You — just please go and heal yourself. Don’t even want horrible things to happen. I want you to be a better human being — is what I want you to be: more accepting, more fulfilled, more open, more willing to let joy into your life. And so that’s — you could say — what gets past that. I just want good things for you.
Hannah:Yeah, I hear what you’re saying.
Stuart: Yeah, I am weird. I’m a freak of nature. I’ve got a weird moustache. All of these things — demonstrably true. But I hope you get the help you need.
Hannah: Yeah.
Stuart: So see, that’s where I am — and it doesn’t… that doesn’t come quickly. That doesn’t come instantly. It’s not something that you can be even coached — you have to build that internal armour. And I think you have to do it at your own pace. There’s no one-size-fits-all, one journey is the same as another. You know the old adage: “If you’ve met one autistic, you’ve met one autistic.”
Hannah: Yeah, yeah.
Stuart: And it’s the same with people, isn’t it? It should be “If you’ve met one person, you’ve met one person.” But I think that in the earlier stages — had I had a more smooth ride at school, had I been better at masking or whatever — I think I would have been very, very nervous about stepping out to some people. Because the whole point of the mask, the whole point of thinking you’re fitting in and learning the dances and building the… “Oh, this is how you do that, and these are the rules around that, and this is how you do this other thing.” Those are coping strategies to allow you to pass. Where it becomes difficult is when you think you’re passing and you think… that’s where I think it’s interesting… that’s where the problems begin for a lot of people — and that you don’t have a choice in it. It’s a little bit like the zebra and the horses again. The zebra thinks, “I’m looking like a horse. I think like a horse. I’m doing the horsey things with all the other horses…” And all the other horses are going, “there’s a fucking zebra with us — what’s with the zebra that thinks he’s a horse?” “Very 80s, brother. What’s he wearing?” “Jesus. “Stop it, Steve. He’ll come over here and start info-dumping…”
Hannah: “…about the flags of the world.”
Stuart: Exactly. “Oh, I met somebody who loves a flag.”
Hannah: Anyway, that’s a story for another day. So yeah — so to veil or to unveil?
Stuart: Well, in business, I have decided that I’m going to lead with it and I don’t care. But that isn’t something that you come to overnight, and it’s a considered strategy for me. I think it attracts… it attracts the tribe. It does. I was thinking about this — actually, I was thinking about this deeply the other day. I was thinking, what would a neurodiverse economy look like? What — because 80% are unemployed. 80% — that just blows my mind. We are so over-represented as a population in that we find employment difficult — either holding a job or finding a job or getting in — and being given the usual kind of “bad cultural fit” or all those things which you’re expected to do that just burn you out and then end up meaning that you’re failing at your job. So by trying to fit in, you fail. Just — the horror story that I went through in my final job, I can’t even begin to get into it. It was one of the components that led to the burnout — was the othering and the shaming for being different, for having a different mindset and viewpoint.
Not even rubbing it in people’s faces — I wasn’t wearing all of this then. I didn’t have a crazy moustache. I thought I was a zebra who’d put on a horse outfit and was getting away with it. Yeah. So I think for me, I can’t — I can’t go back in the closet. It’s impossible. The statistic of 80% of people in our community being unemployed doesn’t mean to say they have no value, they have no skills, they don’t want to work. And again, that’s why I think that self-employment — if you can make an income from your skills that allows you to manage your energy and your time — that’s more important than a flash new car and a fancy house. Because you can very quickly find that even if you’re coping in a normal setting of work, that one life event just wipes you out. The wrong person in your life dies. An unexpected, massive change of fortune. Some kind of left-field 3 a.m. problem just descends on you and you find that you’ve been juggling three balls quite successfully — but four, and everything falls apart. I’ve heard that on too many occasions — people saying, you know, “I just ended up running out of enough time to cope with everything.”
So I think there needs to be a reassessment. And for me, a neurodiverse economy — I alighted on this, and I’m willing to be tested on this (I’m not saying this is rigorously researched or thought through) — is a ‘more creative’ economy. The people who are in the music industry — not necessarily all of the suits and all the rest of it — but those who are making the music, the creatives, the people who are creating the music that can be sold, that could make the money and live off their skills. You’ve got artists of all genres — all genres. You’ve got creatives in many, many different fields — many different fields. You’ve got people with specific hyper-focuses that are fueling our research and museums and that kind of thing. Think about if we had those 80%, even giving only 10% of their time to specific things — imagine how much power. I always thought to myself, if you had a person who loved bookkeeping — they loved bookkeeping (I know a couple of people like this) — they love getting into the figures, they love doing all of that fine grain. I couldn’t think of anything that I would want to do less — but you do you, because we need you to do you so that I can do me.
That’s the important thing.
But imagine you’re given the task of doing bookkeeping, but that bit of bookkeeping in your day is built with a load of bullshit around it. Isn’t it better that you just did the two hours of bookkeeping that you do so exceptionally well? It doesn’t matter wher* you are with bookkeeping — I’m sorry, it doesn’t. You can do it from any computer in any place in the world — it’s numbers. I’m sure, yes, you can get over the need to be present with Zoom. But the point to it is that if you had ten clients with two hours each doing your specific, wonderful, amazing task, you’d earn as much money as if you had your job. And you’ve got 20 hours of work a week rather than 40 hours of work a week — which gives you way more time. And jobs are expensive — all of the getting to it, the getting back from it, the clothes, the attention to it all. Just all of that — the fact that when you go on holiday (and you’re probably during the school time and that’s more expensive). A neurodiverse economy would maybe allow people to add to the economy who are currently excluded, because… why? They’re a bit different. So it’s not just veil or unveil — it’s sometimes ‘earn or not earn’. And I see that. I really see that. The harder I mask, the more chance there is that I can get a job to have at least some semblance of an income for a lifestyle that I then have to try and juggle.
Hannah: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s hard. I remember many years ago just actually quite liking even the structure of an employed job, and yet kind of not being able to cope with the two extremes. In a way, I like the rules — and I hated the rules. I’m AuDHD — so I’ve got the autism going “I like the rules,” and then I’ve got the ADHD going “No — no rules!” So there’s definitely two parts to me. But yeah, you’re absolutely right — not only is it a huge problem that so many neurodiverse people are finding themselves (wrongly) finding themselves unemployable. And I think there’s so much behind that — there’s so many unhelpful stereotypes. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day and they said, “Oh, everybody thinks autism is like ‘Rain Man’ — Dustin… was it Dustin Hoffman? — you know, kind of with the funny voice. Everybody thinks that’s it.” Or they think that — sorry, cough — either they think we’re a genius (which is quite a thing to live up to) or they think that we’re disorganised and lazy and all of the other useless and unhelpful stereotypes. Or they — this is one of my triggers actually (but I do use it too, so I’m a bit of a hypocrite) — or they say it’s a ‘superpower’. Actually, yeah — there are some things I do incredibly well in a hyperfocus, but there’s also some things that are really, really challenging that are linked to… yeah, like my need to do all sorts of weird OCD counting rituals and all that crazy — that’s sometimes all-consuming. So I’ve gone off on a little tangent.
Stuart: No, no, no — it’s like Superman being blamed because he can’t hoick down the kryptonite. But yeah, he can fly — but he can’t dig out the stuff that makes his money…
Hannah: Yeah — when I’ve read up some bits over the years of famous people quoting what they… famous people that have outed themselves — people like Greta Thunberg and Richard Branson, and — I don’t know — there’s a few, isn’t there? Spielberg? I keep trying to remember them. But they all said similar versions of… well, they will describe their differences as being central to their success, because they were some of the lucky ones that managed to not try and toe the line, but actually dance to their own tune and harness their strengths and superpowers. And actually they see that as being central to their success. So I love that — because actually that’s what we’re kind of saying, isn’t it? Kind of be yourself and not try and toe that line and mask yourself as a normal person. And actually — yeah, but at the same time, if everybody thinks that I’m going to perform at the level of Einstein or Greta Thunberg, then that’s quite the challenge as well, isn’t it? “Why aren’t you saving the planet, Hannah?” “Oh — because I’m lying on the sofa.”
So I guess maybe… I mean, I was looking at some stats before doing this and — this is quite depressing really, sorry folks, brace yourself — apparently 78% of neurodiverse (there was a big survey done) — 78% of neurodiverse founders hide their neurodiversity in business situations. And only 4% said they faced no discrimination at all. So can you imagine — 96% were facing discrimination in their workplace or within business? So it’s not even just people that were employed — just people in business. It was a group of founders in business. So… hey — sucks, doesn’t it? It’s just terrible. No wonder people mask. No wonder people veil up. No wonder people camouflage and do all of the things that they do just to get through — but the personal toll of that… Brutal. It is brutal.
And I said the work that I do — I mean, I’m in awe (I don’t mean that in a weird way). I mean in awe of the fact that you are like “This is who I am.” I can see how well it works to filter out (or filter in) the people that you genuinely want to work with, that feed your soul and make the whole experience really good. And that is magnificent. And that is 100% where I’m heading — my goal. And yet because I work with… I’m trying inadvertently to just work with neurodiverse small businesses — I’m not niching into that, but actually I think that will be my little beacon. I’ll be heading towards the beacons when I’m looking for potential clients. But at the moment I meet people and put out proposals, and I’m very aware with a couple more recently that actually if I set out, “By the way, I’m neurodiverse,” because of maybe it was a generational thing or just maybe the type of person that this particular client is, I know that that would put me at a disadvantage.
Because in my work I need to be thorough, organised, very detail-focused — I am all of those things, because I’ve honed my skills to be that way. And yet if I say, “By the way, I’m spicy,” they’ll be like, “Oh no — she’s going to say outrageous things and not be able to write an email properly.” And it just… I might say outrageous things — who cares? But actually, joking apart, I don’t in business scenarios. In appropriate business scenarios, I… you know, I do appreciate what’s appropriate and what isn’t — regardless of my neurotypes.
Stuart: That’s called being professional.
Hannah: That’s called being an adult, isn’t it?
Stuart: An adult, yeah. But I think the point is — it’s not the revelation that you may be different; it’s the other person’s reaction to that revelation. So it’s more about the *other person* than yourself. And then how do you… how do you cover this? Because we’ve had conversations before where you’ve spoken about the people you work with — and they do seem to… it does seem to be stories from the spicy side. How do you broach that? Because it was instant for me. It was instant. I’ve got very good at spotting it now over the years. The suits are like… “Come and talk to me, it’s safe to do. I’m not going to do anything rubbish. I don’t eat small children. I’m not actually going to try and sell you anything. I’ve actually got a quiet side to help behind the suit.”
Hannah: So at the moment — and I’m aware that this is definitely an evolution for me, with the end goal being kind of where I said really (the kind of euphoria of just like “This is it”) — but at the moment what I do is I sniff around. And if I think they’re spicy as well, and I think it is helpful to the conversation, I will drop into the conversation that I am neurodiverse. I tend to back it up with the selling point — like I’ll say, “Oh, actually, I’m really good at blog writing because my detail is second to none, and I get into a massive deep-dive focus — and it’s really good.” So I kind of drop it in like a “But don’t worry — I’m not an idiot.” You know — I do it like that.
If I’m talking… you know, I usually sniff them out first. And if they’re neurodiverse, I’m in safe-zone. If they’re not, then I have to — you know, I’m worried. I’m worried about the stigma. And I hear it all the time. I was in a conversation at a networking thing the other day and this guy — actually, he’s a nice enough guy, but you know, slight ignorance (unfortunately for you at the moment — maybe not after I kind of was a bit too blunt) — but he was kind of doing the whole “Everybody’s a bit neurodiverse nowadays,” or “You know, you can’t move for bumping into a neurodiverse person.” And I just — I called him out on that. But actually the way that he was framing it was almost that we are a community that think we’re all special and different — but we’re not. And it was negative. It was negative. And it was kind of… and he used the word excuse, which is really annoying. “Why do people need a label? Is it an excuse?” What? It’s a diagnosis, you foolish old man! And — don’t get me on that soapbox — but you know what I mean.
Stuart: Yeah — it was a kind of “They think they’re special, but it’s just an excuse to be lazy and to be rude to their colleagues.” And actually I’ve never been lazy or rude — those are two things I don’t suffer with. And I don’t think you do either. So it’s just ridiculous. And what’s the answer? It’s easy — “Apologise.” But I have used weaponised rudeness.
Hannah: I have sometimes — when my mouth works quicker than my brain.
Stuart:Yeah, no — sometimes I am deliberately rude if they’re stupid. I mean, wilful — wilful stupidity is likely to get both barrels. “Arrr — your ill-informed, backwards-thinking, retrograde humanity is of no interest to me.” And I’m afraid the rudeness will be returned in kind. I will give it back to you in double amounts. Right. Yeah. I think a lot of the time it’s ignorance and education that is required for these things. And if somebody’s not willing to be educated and not willing to understand that knowledge isn’t new — knowledge has always been there. Everest was there before anyone climbed it. Yeah — it’s knowledge that we’re finding. We’ve never had a group of as many groups as we have, able to now contact each other over the internet and go, “You do that?” “I do that — that’s really weird, isn’t it?” And there’s somebody over here — “No, it’s not weird because I do it.” “Yeah, but nobody else I know does it.” “Yeah — that’s because there’s only… like — they reckon 4%.” But I think that’s a tiny number. I actually probably think it may even be as close as 20%. And my thinking on this is: nature doesn’t do anything by mistake. On a long enough timeline, Darwinian evolution has told us that it eliminates the things that won’t adapt to change.
And this is my working theory — and I’ve got nothing about this, it’s just feels, folks. This is just me. And it goes — it’s a hypothesis that feels right. It doesn’t necessarily bear any hard scrutiny because I don’t have the learning for it — but this is what my feeling is: we’re like the 10th dentist — the neurodiverse community. All right — if everybody’s thinking in one direction, the Knesset has the concept of the 10th dentist — the person who has to disagree with everybody present; has to go away and find reasons why everybody present is wrong. And I think that’s kind of our role. Our role is to go, “Well, we’re all grazing and eating here and really good — but what happens when all this dries up? What happens during the dry season? Beyond the average — thinking in a way…” “I hate, I hate that — what’s over there?” “I hate the bugs, but yeah.” “Oh, we don’t go over there.” “Why is that?” “Because there’s big sabre-toothed tigers.” “Well, what if we killed one? And nibble them up — ate ’em. And then, you know, made a pathway through…” “But how are we going to do that?” “Well, we get stick — a pointy stick.” “Oh, pointy sticks — never catch on.” “I don’t want to pointy-stick a sabre-toothed tiger — that is definitely biting my face off.” “Dig a pit and put the pointy sticks at the bottom and then we’ll run away and it’ll fall in.” You know — but you see, it’s that diverse thinking, that bottom-up thinking that we have. We don’t just accept what’s there — we want to know “Why is this other thing not there?” or “Why don’t we do this this way?”
And so I think, actually — rather than trying to figure out ways of curing autism (good luck with that) — if nature didn’t want it… I’ll never take that injection. I want to be me. “Just come into this room and look into the light.” Men in Black style — “Yeah, champ.” I’m not testing. I’m not testing. But the point to it is — I think we’re doing ourselves a disservice. Like I said — if we could only get those people into a little bit of employment that just focused on their specialism, their hyperfocus, where their interest lies — just imagine what we could harness with that. Rather than going, “Oh, you’re different, you’re odd, you need treating — we’re going to work on science to get rid of it — and we’re going to make you feel different all the time.” Why? We came to grips with the issues that I saw with my aunt who was in a wheelchair — we put ramps into buildings. Architects realised that the built environment was actively hostile for some of the people who were expected to live in there — not just people in wheelchairs — older people, people for whom steps are an issue. Mums with prams. They suddenly go, “Oh — it’s not just the disabled. It’s a whole group of people that would actually like a ramp.”
And I think that actually — not everyone’s on the spectrum, of course not — but there are quite a few people who are not on the spectrum who have the traits. And we all know that. And those traits — they’re human traits. It’s them clustered together which creates… you know, it’s not just one problem — it’s the 20 problems. And sometimes those problems are — like you’ve pointed out — completely at odds, pulling you in two separate directions. PDA and a deadline — “Meh — we’ll do it by then.” “Oh, will I? I’m going to blaze through the night on the last evening. Do it in any kind of special, constructed way? I’ll do it my way.”
That’s the point, isn’t it? We should be working to our strengths. There should be ways for businesses to access the knowledge, skill, and life experience that the people in our community have — and give them a real sense of feeding their community, feeding their families, building something in the wider society and having a value. Which, quite frankly, you have whether you have a job or not — I’m sorry, but you do. You have a value to the people around you — we all do. So just boiling it down to basic economics, I think, does us a disservice. And we are the 10th dentists — and if you just used us a little bit more and played to our strength… I’m a great problem solver. Really good practical, creative problem solver. And yeah — the point to it is my problem-solver skills — that’s the core of what I do, whether it’s in a creative way with writing or drawing or coding, or whether it’s a more practical, hands-on “You need to make my build all constructed.” But I haven’t found a job that has all of that. I made it up — and it’s called ‘being me’. It’s a fabulous job.
Hannah: I loved what earlier you said about ways for us to connect. And I think we live in a time where that is incredible. I watch the way that my children — they’re both neurodiverse — and I watch the way that they create… they meet friends online. It’s much easier for them to do that. But actually what that’s also doing is bringing together their tribe. So as a group… in a moment it feels like I’m about to say that we’re going to take over the world — the neuro-spicies are going to get our pitchforks… No, we’re not. But my point being: there was a time where you and I felt like… You know, with the kids — I was the kid that spent every lunch break tidying — tidying the cupboards in the geography part of the school because I couldn’t ‘people’. People were horrible to me. And I struggled. And actually I loved my lunch breaks once I realised there could be something I could do — tidying up the bookshelves relentlessly in an autistic fashion that made me feel better about myself. But actually the empowerment of us being able to find our tribe more easily — not just in real world, but actually online — we’re learning (not quick enough, but we’re learning) that actually we’re not just the odd kid in the geography suite at lunchtime or the kid that was always getting picked on. We are so much more than that — in a positive way. And actually there’s a movement happening, isn’t there? There is definitely a movement. And that’s why we never would have been talking about whether to veil or unveil X amount of years ago — it wasn’t a thing. Nobody would have… It’s like you said — you wouldn’t come out of a closet if you were gay in the ’50s or whenever it was really, you know. But actually now it is a “Do you or don’t you?” And it’s the same — I’m not obviously comparing homosexuality to neurodiversity, but you see what I’m saying here — there are correlations. There are similarities of experience — the stigma or potential perceived stigma and all that kind of stuff.
But yeah — you just said 96% had some perception — that’s a lot of perceiving. That’s a lot of… But I still — I test the water (I touched on this before). I do test the water in work situations, and I’m very perceptive. I’m very able to see if there’s a little glimmer of, “Oh, is it a label?” and then I just step… you know, I remove myself and I have a little think — “Do I want to work with this person?” I’ve worked with loads of neurotypical people and I’m very happy to — they’re great. But I love the flexibility of working… Two of my clients at the moment are both neurodiverse and it’s much easier because I can say to them, “I was planning to do your blog today, but I’m done — I’m all out of spoons. I can definitely do it tomorrow and it will be ready by the end of the week,” which is the deadline. That’s the other thing I do — I allow myself so much more time for a deadline that I have got that wiggle-room. Like you said — the buffers — really to make sure I’m not… I’m never missing (well, touch wood) — I’m never missing a deadline because I put in so much build-up, so much lead time. I’ve gone off on a tangent — but my point is: much easier if I’m working with people that get it and don’t think that I’m using it as an excuse or whatever.
I mean, I’m working on somebody’s website at the moment and I kind of did a quick — like you and I have done before — I did a really quick audit and just nailed the whole thing in about 15 minutes, and they were like, “Oh — okay, whatever you just did there — whatever **sorcery** you just unleashed — it was crazy, Hannah.” They were like, “Yeah, sign me up. I’m done. You need to sort my website out.” And that is a superpower for want of a better word.
Stuart: Yeah — but if that’s where your skill set lies, then specialising in doing that — so being a specialist rather than being a generalist — that’s what… And this is the point with a lot of self-employment: it’s about being a specialist. Somebody’s coming at you for a specific outcome. Lean into that superpower — lean way into it. Way into it.
No, it’s an interesting topic and it’s one that we will return to because, again, from all of this, my reason for wanting to be involved with this project was just to find community — just to find and put a beacon up and say, “Let’s start exploring this idea that self-employment as a lifestyle for the neurodiverse is actually quite healthy mentally.” It can be hard — I get it — it can be hard. You know, you’ve got a little bit of work coming in, you’ve got big bills to pay. But you’re going to have that anyway — working on a job, and the regularity of the income — at your own (in some cases) sanity. Is that a good payoff? Are you getting a good bargain when you’re swapping time for money and you need some of that time to recover? The stories of people burning out are common — and using their weekends to just get enough energy to get through the next week. Just to do that for so long — just to recharge.
Hannah: One thing I would add is — I speak to a lot of small business owners, and I would say confidently that all of the ones — the neuro-spicy ones (as in the people that have said they are) — every one of them talks to me about “I don’t want to be a millionaire.” And literally they all have pretty humble lives. I have a humble life. I don’t need a Ferrari. I don’t want to go on a flashy, amazing round-the-world trip. I just want to have the odd takeaway, pay my bills, manage my energy… you know, buy the odd bright-coloured dress. Just… yeah — I don’t… And it isn’t — I put that on a post on LinkedIn the other day and I got a bit of “Oh, I want to be a millionaire.” Well, that’s awesome. That’s awesome — I respect that. But it doesn’t work with my lifestyle. I don’t want the burnout and the chaos that would go with being super-rich. That’s not in my life plan. And it doesn’t — it doesn’t work for what I need to do.
And yeah — so that’s not me saying, by the way, I mean, you’ve got Spielberg and, you know, Tim Burton and all these incredible — Richard Branson — these mega, mega-rich neurodiverse people. So I’m not saying we all have to be humble and…
Stuart: But that’s where their specialities took them. Their circumstances — to a certain extent, a lot of the luck that they’ve had — was because they were willing to put themselves out there and be in those places where those opportunities — and take those risks. Those rewards became them. Now, I’m not going to get into the debates of one person’s success versus another — but the fact that I don’t have people ringing me 24/7 shouting at me to do… I don’t have people chasing me for major deadlines. Don’t have a boss. Those are things **you can’t buy**. You can’t buy those. And being… It’s a huge privilege — it’s a huge privilege to get up on a Monday and decide what I want to do. I’ve probably got a plan already before I get to the Monday — but that’s a story for another day. But I have chosen to do those things. I have chosen to have yesterday — I… and I could, you know… from the party, previous Monday… I had the time off. And I was glad that I could recharge and get back on the horse and, you know, “What’s next after a big kind of project?”
My wife, Gem, was saying, you know, it’s a bit like after we’ve done a big show — you know, there’s that week of like, “Ohhh…” And it is — it’s exactly like that. Build up — and then the kind of aftermath — it’s almost like a bit of a… not a letdown. What’s the word — you know — anti-climax. It’s that refractory piece — you know, lying there, smoking a cigarette, going… “I need to smoke a cigarette.” Back when I used to have sex. When I was allowed to smoke before I got told off. “Why are you in our bedroom? It’s making…” Sorry.
But the point — the point to it is, I think that the choice to veil or unveil — yeah, is a personal choice. You have to admit to yourself first. So that’s the hardest part — “Oh, yeah, you know, this is likely.” But the second part of that changes depending on which avenue you are. If you’re employed, there’s probably a much greater pressure on you to remain with the mask on — and it’s for everybody else. It’s not for you. You find it a complete chore, burden, heartache, headache — or just, you know, when somebody interrupts a hyperfocus with a bit of chit-chat, and you kind of turn with a blank face and go, “Yeah, well…” Because you just haven’t — for me to reboot and… “Oh yeah — what was that?” You know — you’ve lost me. I’ve now got to go back to the beginning. So I understand the need for it — especially in the corporate setting where, you know, “being a professional…” And we see the stories in America — it’s terrible, the employment situation there. I get the need for it — you know, it’s almost like survival: “I’ve got to do this to survive.” So we’re not saying just willy-nilly and make light of what could be quite a dangerous situation for some people. Choose your moment, choose your people.
And that’s kind of why this community exists — like, if you can’t be unmasked in your real life, come here and share your comments and your thoughts and your ideas, and join a community of people who are also seeking further clarity on their own journey. So, you know, this sharing of information I find highly important at this point in my own discovery — my own self-discovery and revelation. So do stick anything in the comments — if you agree with us, you disagree with us, insights, thoughts, abilities, strategies, approaches — we’re open and here for you about this. Hopefully, you’ll sign up to the newsletter — oh, it’s just a reminder that the podcast is coming out and various signposts and resources (both things that we have generated, which we’re giving away free on our website — businessodcast.com) plus anything else that we find that resonates, or a meme that might be funny which speaks to a truth.
We share a few of those with each other. Share with us — you know, if you’ve got opposing views, tell us why. Again — you know, I don’t have all of the pieces and I can’t put it all together. I need to see it from other people’s viewpoints. So do share that. We’re more than happy. And as well as topics — if you’ve got a topic that you want us to look into, deep-dive on, give you thoughts about, strategies on, and how we approach these things — more than happy to share whatever is useful with our community.
So, Hannah — tell them to like, share and subscribe.
Hannah: Like, share and subscribe right now. Keep doing it. Keep doing it. And any hate mail — no, you keep that mean stuff to yourself. Push it down.
Stuart: Or let it out — just let it out. Send it to hosts@businessodcast.com — we’ll just delete it. Just — for the subject, put “haters gonna hate,” and then put your hate in it. And then we will just have a filter that will silently delete it. You’ll feel like you’ve let it out. So, you know — puncture the boil, let out the pus, but it doesn’t mean to say that we need to read it.
Okay, seriously: please, please tell people that you know that you think… you know — give them a whisper in their shell-like. You all know someone. You will. We know people. We’re having conversations. Give them the wink, give them the nod. Magic in their direction. If you have a boss and you are on the spectrum — whether veiled or unveiled — and you think he needs to learn some things, send him here.
Hannah: Send him to us and we’ll go pay him a visit. No, we won’t. We won’t do that. No, no — we’ve… we’ve stopped killing people for money. It was very messy. Constantly looking over your shoulder — waiting to be caught. The pressure. Hours are also quite unsociable — yeah, all that midnight digging of holes, driving around — exhausting.
Stuart: So, once again, thank you very much. That’s a great topic — I loved that. It was really interesting. Some thoughts and some thought-provoking ideas there. We’ll see you next time. Do — and do all the things that we’ve told you to do. And be sure to keep it to yourself. Here’s your homework: go into your bathroom, look yourself in the mirror and say, “I am enough.” Just say, “I am enough.” I’m telling you — when it resonates, and you start tearing up and you realise how tough you’ve been being on yourself — you are enough.
Hannah: Yeah. You are. You are.
Stuart: Right — I am too much. I am going to go. We’ve got one about that — we did one about that a couple of weeks back. Go and have a look at the previous videos. Oh, I’ll do one of those linking things — that might be useful. I’ll figure out how to do it — be here, or there, or down there — depends on where you look. I know when I watch… I watch YouTube a lot on our telly. And they always — “Oh, there’s a link up there or in the comments.” I’ve got that stuff… I can’t do — that’s not TV.
So that’s another reason why you should subscribe to the Oddcast email — yeah — because we will share backlinks and stuff. We’ve got some blogs coming out soon. Hopefully by now the website will be up and fully functional with our blog and other bits and pieces and our resources section. So do jump in there and have a look. Until next time, Hannah.
Hannah: See you later, people. I hope you enjoyed listening — watching. Bye. Bye.
Stuart: Step away from PAYE.
Hannah: Haha — don’t do it.